Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Murder of Dwayne Jones/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 02:11, 24 July 2015 [1].

Murder of Dwayne Jones[edit]

Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jamaican teenager who was murdered in an anti-LGBT motivated attack. The murder made headline news within Jamaica and attracted further press attention abroad. International human rights organisations highlighted the killing as a symptom of the problems surrounding the lack of LGBT rights on the island. This article failed to receive much attention when it was first nominated for FAC last year, but hopefully will receive more now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by BenLinus1214[edit]

Hi, this is my first FAC review, but I do GAs regularly, so this shouldn't be difficult. Let's get started!

  • The non-free image in the infobox doesn't have a very specific rationale. I'm not questioning the appropriateness of the image, but the rationale should be better.
  • In the second paragraph of the lead, I would replace "gender" with "biological sex" unless you feel a reason to use the former.
    • Part of the problem here is that we have no reliable source stating what Jones' biological sex was; I assume given the context of the events that he was biologically male, but lack any source that expressly states that. Conversely, given the fact that his name was "Dwayne" and his close friends referred to him using masculine pronouns, we can assume with some certainty that he identified as male. Thus I think that "gender" is more appropriate here, but am open to further discussion on this one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Perhaps it's best to find a wording that avoids using either term? Maybe "when discovered"? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've gone with the following: "When a number of men at the party discovered that he was not a cisgender female, they confronted and attacked him." Do you think that that works ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I keep a database of articles on the Caribbean. Here I have found two articles that specifically state that she was a female but biologically male. This one from Policy Mic and this one from Maurice Tomlinson, possibly the best known Jamaican LGBT activist. Even though Maurice's piece states specifically Dwayne stated "I am a girl," and he is a RS, it is stated in a blog, which probably is not a RS for a FA. SusunW (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little concerned about making a change to the article that replaces all male pronouns to female ones when referring to Jones throughout this article. Yes, they did say "I am a girl" when a mob confronted them, but given the context I really don't think that we can be sure that this was a genuine act of self-identification, given that it could well be an attempt to avoid being violently attacked. While I am 100% in favour of ensuring that Jones is described using their own gendered pronouns, I think it very important to note that Jones' close friend Khloe – a transwoman – was quoted as referring to "him". Given that Khloe would not only have had a very close understanding of Jones but that she would also have a strong appreciation of transgender issues, would she not have been cautious in ensuring that she used the pronoun that Jones preferred ? Given this, I think it more likely that Jones actually identified with male pronouns, at least at the time of their death. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How do you feel about the singular they? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 09:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you didn't mean for it to appear otherwise. As I said lower down I think you have masterfully addressed a situation that was vague to all parties involved. I don't know that there is another way you could address it other than as you have done. SusunW (talk) 22:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "did not charge anyone" feels a little informal and does not include the important information that no one was even arrested. Especially given that the set of perpetrators is very clear, I would include that as well.
    • I've added that they did not arrest anyone, although have refrained from including the statement that the identify of the perpetrators is clear, because none of our sources actually state that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This article specifically states witnesses claimed they could not identify the perpetrators [2] SusunW (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was picked up by media" is sort of informal--maybe "was widely discussed in media".
    • Changed to "reported on by media", as I am not sure that the story was necessarily "widely discussed" in UK and US media. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't a big deal, but instead of titling it "early life", maybe it could be "background"? (in articles like Murder of Leigh Leigh)
    • Personally I prefer "early life" here as I believe that it better reflects the section's contents but am open to the opinions of others on this one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:17, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Make it clear (per your source) that Jones was probably kicked out of the house when he began to express his sexuality openly.
    • I'm a little hesitant on this point. There are two sources testifying to the fact that Jones was kicked out of his father's home, but only one makes the motive of this explicit, stating that the father threw him out "when he began to flaunt his sexuality"; however given that we don't explicitly know what Jones' sexuality was that presents us with a problem. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are no in-wiki links on your references throughout—when they apply, maybe you could add links to pages?
  • Make the first sentence in the "Murder" section less convoluted and more active: "he dressed as a girl and attended the "Henessey Sundays" dance party with Keke and Khloe at a bar in the Irwin area."
  • Be more specific about what the "Henessey Sundays" party is.
  • Does that sentence need four cites after it?
    • I don't think that it does any harm leaving them in, although am open to other opinions on this one. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the second sentence, there might be some helpful links you could put, such as starting the sentence with "Jones successfully passed as a girl at the party".
  • Also, the Montego Bay picture would better fit the "Early life"/"Background" section than the Murder one.
  • Where's the bit about the friend attending church with Jones?
  • There's a sentence in both footnote 2 and footnote 5 about one of the perpetrators using a lighter to examine the size of Jones's feet--could you put that in?
  • "batty boy" is not a familiar epithet to many--of course, readers can just click the link, but it would be nice to specify that it is a Jamaican insult.
  • "at which point" would be better than "at which"
    • This seems to have been changed as I cannot find any instance of "at which point" in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Specify who the report that no one helped Jones was from—Maurice Tomlinson, a Jamaican LGBT rights activist, per your source.
    • I'm not entirely sure if this is necessary, and worry that it might impeded the flow of the prose a little. Again, alternate opinions welcome. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Midnightblueowl: That's true, but if you don't want to put that in, you should probably change the wording of the sentence. "There were reports" makes it sound a little vague if you don't put who reported this.
        • But it says "there were no reports" rather than "there were reports" here. So adding Thompson here would entail saying "Thompson stated that there were no reports...", which to my mind is just adding unnecessary information at this juncture in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the beginning of the investigation part, you could put a quote, as one is in your source.
    • Again, I'm not entirely convinced on this one because the quote from the police officer conveys pretty much exactly the same information as that which is already in this article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • What "four homeless youths" are you talking about?
  • Also put that Tomlinson set up Dwayne's House.
    • As far as I can gather from the citation used, Tomlinson did not actually establish the Dwayne's House charity himself, but rather only commented that he was "working with" them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Tomlinson was heavily involved. This article states he was the "person pushing hardest for the shelter’s creation" but I believe the person who is actually functioning as the coordinator is Yvonne McCalla Sobers. [3] SusunW (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the additional link SusunW; I have added in to the article as an additional citation as to the establishment of the Dwayne's House charity. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do any of the sources state where Keke was during all this?
  • For a more descriptive topic sentence on the "Reaction" section, I would expand it to something along the lines of "Jones' murder made headline news across Jamaica, drawing criticism from human rights groups and others and renewing the debate over LGBT rights in Jamaica."
    • My concern with this change would be regarding citations. We have one citation that states very clearly that "Jones' murder made headline news across Jamaica" but not ones that clearly express the latter information. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It did make headlines across the Caribbean. It did not cause any groups except those already working with the LGBT communities to criticize other than a few personal statements written as opinion pieces or social media posts by known activists. Can't provide documents, because there aren't any actual groups who expressed outrage other than JFlag, Barbados Glad, Unibam, etc. SusunW (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the image caption, link to Portia Simpson-Miller.
  • I think the image is good, but could you mention something in the text from footnotes 13 and 14 about Miller and maybe group all three together? Currently, you only have something about Miller cited to footnote 17.
    • I'm a little hesitant about expanding the caption too much, but if you have any specific suggestions I'd be happy to discuss them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few of the abbreviations for organizations aren't necessary, as you don't reference a lot of them again.
    • I have removed the abbreviations from the three instances where they are not repeated. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the Quality of Citizenship Jamaica quote, I would cut it down to make it sound less awkward (e.g. ending it after National Anthem).
    • I have edited this sentence so that this is no longer a problem. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have! :) BenLinus1214talk 17:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@BenLinus1214: thank you very much for taking the time to provide these comments. They have clearly enhanced the article in various different ways. If you feel like you would be willing to offer an opinion on whether you would support or oppose this page receiving Featured Article status then that would also be very helpful! Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if any of that helps you. I think you have covered the situation quite well, given that even those close to the victim were not comfortable assigning labels. SusunW (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support All my comments have been addressed in a timely manner and I think that it would make a very good featured article. BenLinus1214talk 20:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments form Curly Turkey[edit]

  • Feel free to undo any of my copyedits or to disagree with any of my comments:
  • then made homeless by his father: kind of awkward wording
    • I've altered the wording to the following: "Jones was bullied in school and then forced out of his family home by his father at age 14. Homeless, he moved into a derelict house..." Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • When his gender was discovered: I'm not as well-versed as I could be in these issues, but this should be "biological sex" rather than "gender", no?
    • This issue was previously raised by BenLinus1214 above, so I have discussed it there - feel free to join in. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was beaten, stabbed, shot, and run over by a car: the rest of the article avoids the serial comma—you'll have to settle on one style
  • The event made newspaper headlines in Jamaica: only the papers?
    • While it is probably the case that the story was picked up by other forms of news media (it definitely appears on websites, for instance), we have an Associated Press source that specifically states that the story made headline news, so I am following their example here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:52, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • So why not just cut it to "made headlines"? The term "headline" is used in the TV news world as well. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:52, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Raised in a impoverished slum in Montego Bay:
    • shouldn't assume readers know that Montego Bay is in Jamaica.
      • I've added a brief few words to that sentence explaining where the city is. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • On that note, outside of the lead it's never mentioned that he was Jamaican—we get "Jones' murder made headline news across Jamaica" in the "Reaction" section, which is the first mention of Jamaica. The lead is supposed to summarize the body (and thus be independent of it), so the fact that he was Jamaican needs to be made explicit in the body.
    • Is it known if he was born in Montego Bay, or only raised there?
      • I am unaware of any information specifying exactly where he was born. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • his effeminate behavior:
    • do we have examples?
      • Unfortunately I don't think so; I would assume that this is a reference to perceived effeminate mannerisms but lack any sources to testify to this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, the wording could be seen as POV—we might want something like "behaviour regarded as effeminate" (or "perceived as effeminate", as you have in the lead).
    • I believe Jamaican English uses Commonwealth orthography (as you do with the dates), so I imagine this should be "behaiour" (ditto "neighbours", etc)
      • Agreed; my original script probably would have had Commonwealth orthography, so an editor more familiar with American spelling presumably made the changes at some point. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jones was known as "Gully Queen" among friends, and he won a local dancing competition: the wording seems to imply a relation between dance competitions and being called something like "Gully Queen". I have no idea what "gully" means—can we get a gloss?
    • "Gully" refers to life on the impoverished urban streets, and has similar connotations to terms like "gangsta". However I'm not entirely sure how to incorporate this into the article however, as I fear that it might constitute original research. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:49, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Gully Queens" refers to a group of Jamaicans who live in the sewer. Gully is a storm drainage ditch. for information here or here SusunW (talk) 21:43, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying this; I have added the latter source with the additional information to the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • who believed Jones to be biologically female: do you know anything good to link to here? Biological sex just links to Sex.
  • they accosted him: including the girl?
  • He was beaten, stabbed, shot and run over by a car.: Holy shit!
  • the Orange Main Road: is that article supposed to be there?
  • "Bc, the boy good! I'm catch me for true": the gloss is about as opaque as the original—can we get a gloss of the gloss?
    • Given that I have offered the best translation as I could, I think it best if this passage is simply removed altogether, unless there is someone who is fluent in Jamaican slang around ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:16, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The boy was really talented and truly fooled me would be my take on it. SusunW (talk) 21:43, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Giving "JFJ", "QCJ", and "HRW" raises the expectation that we'll see these later in the article, but we don't
    • I have removed the abbreviations from the three instances where they are not repeated. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "find a common ground undergirded by the principles espoused in our National Anthem, "teach us true respect for all" and National Pledge".": something screwy's going on here
    • I appreciate that it's not the clearest piece of prose that I've ever read, but it is a direct quote and thus think it best if it remains in its current form. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, at least one that that needs fixing is the secoond-to-last quotemark—where is the opening quotemark? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Given that BenLinus has also raised exactly the same point, I think it best if I conceded to the two of you and change the prose in this sentence. I have now done so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks for your comments Curly! If you feel able to give this article your support for FA status then that would be greatly appreciated, but no pressure if you don't feel it worthy at present. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment[edit]

Sorry but despite being list under FAC urgents for some time, this hasn't attracted enough commentary for consensus to be determined and has been quite for several weeks, so I'll be archiving it shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:10, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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