Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 27 December 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo[edit]

Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Lemurbaby (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discover the tragic story of Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo, Africa's first modern poet and Madagascar's greatest literary figure, who committed suicide by cyanide poisoning in his 30s following the French colonial government's refusal to let him represent the island at the 1937 world's fair in Paris. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from Curly Turkey[edit]

Feel free to disagree with anything here; some is only my preferences.

Lead[edit]
  • "(4 March 1901/03 – 22 June 1937)": per MOS:DATEFORMAT, the slash refers to contiguous dates; I don't know what the standard is or should be, but I might do "1901 or 1903"
  • Changed to "1901 or 1903"
  • "Rabearivelo was impoverished in childhood": this could be read either as "grew up impoverished" or "was made impoverished (at some point)"
  • Ah, okay - changed to "grew up impoverished"
  • "just prior to the emergence of the Negritude movement": should this not be Négritude?
    • Changed to the French spelling throughout. MOS states we should use English spellings in the English Wikipedia, which is why I had it without the accent - and I suspect the name of the actual Negritude article may need to be changed to drop the accent as well - have I misunderstood that rule?
      • Per MOS:FOREIGN: "The use of diacritics (such as accent marks) for foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English and on the constraints imposed by specialized Wikipedia guidelines." Basically, if it most often appears in English without the diacritic, then avoid using it; if the diacritic is common in English sources, use the diacritic. This results in some irritating irregularities—in Japanese subjects, for instance, one is expected to write "Tokyo" rather than "Tōkyō", but "Shinzō Abe" rather than "Shinzo Abe", even within the same article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for that explanation - very helpful! Lemurbaby (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "already established an international reputation": I think you could drop "already"
  • removed
  • "reputation among Léopold Sédar Senghor and other literary figures": this reads strangely; I don't know if it's technically wrong, but I'd reword it ""reputation among literary figures such as Léopold Sédar Senghor"
  • edited to use your suggested wording
  • "declared Rabearivelo the national poet": maybe "its national poet" would be better
  • changed
  • "his works continue to be felt to the present": you can safely drop "to the present"
  • dropped
Biography[edit]
  • "former Merina aristocracy ... entitled under the former monarchy": I'd drop "former"
  • I removed the first instance (former aristocracy) but want to keep the second (former monarchy) to make it clear that colonization eventually ended it. It didn't happen right away - the French colonized but allowed the monarchy to stay in place for two years, and in most of their colonies they ruled through the monarchy for much longer.
  • "Ecole Flacourt": "École"
  • Corrected
  • "He changed his name to Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo in order to have the": drop "in order"
  • I feel this reads a little better if I keep the "in order" here. Otherwise the repetition of the word "to" starts to stand out.
    • I don't really see any issue with the "repetition", especially since the two tos are not even the same word: the first is a preposition, the second a particle, and besides, they both remain whether you use "in order" or not, so there's no avoiding the "repetition".
  • I do feel it reads better as is, but this is probably just be a matter of personal preference. I'll take it out.
  • "at the Cercle de l'Union": is "the Cercle de l'Union" a library? Best to make it clear
  • Clarified that it was a social club
  • "sums to buy himself books": I'd drop "himself"—that can be assumed
  • removed "himself"
  • "Imprimerie de l'Imerina": rather than linking "Imprimerie" to Printer (publishing), I'd reword to something like "the printing house Imprimerie de l'Imerina", and drop the link entirely
  • changed to use your wording
  • removed link
  • "in various literary magazines, including 18° Latitude Sud": "various" is redundant
  • removed "redundant"
  • "of essays and theatrical plays": we can drop "theatrical", unless there's a reason to distinguish theatrical plays from other kinds of plays
  • removed "theatrical"
  • "In 1925 he published a book in prose called L'Aube Rouge ("The Red Dawn"), a historical novel": "a book in prose called" is redundant
  • changed to "he published a historical novel called L'Aube Rouge ("The Red Dawn") about the last years ..."
  • "Rainandriamampandry, the former governor of Toamasina who was executed by the French in 1896": we can assume he was "former" if he was executed; is "Rainandriamampandry" one word?
  • Yes, that's his last name. Malagasy names are often agglomerations of many words together (the king known as Andrianampoinimerina, for example, actually has a much longer name - that's the short version :D). Removed "former"
  • "He published his second and third poetry anthologies": I assume "he" is Rabearivelo, and not Rainandriamampandry? It's grammatically ambiguous
  • Changed to "Rabearivelo"
  • "with a wide variety of women throughout his adult life": "a wide variety" sets my imagination loose! Is there some reason this can't just be "many"?
  • Ha! Good call. I removed that clause to streamline the sentence.
  • "of hainteny (traditional Malagasy poetry)": might want to redlink "hainteny"
  • I have an article on that but linked it earlier in the article under its subsection topic of kabary. Apparently per MOS we can link terms once per section, so I've added the link to hainteny as well now
  • "his three-year-old daughter Voahangy died": no cause of death?
  • I could only find that it was due to "illness" - added this
  • "and his personal journal": I think we can drop "personal"
  • I'd prefer to keep this to differentiate it from academic or literary journals
    • The "his" more than sufficiently differentiates this—even if he owned an academic journal, in such a context one wouldn't assume that's what "his journal" referred to. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • we may have been looking at different instances. I changed one to "his works and journal" and removed "personal" from another instance, but kept the one before "Calepins bleus" because this is the first real mention of the journal collection as a work with a title.
  • "writing "Perhaps one needs": comma after "writing"
  • I believe this is an aesthetic choice, and I find the close repeated use of commas ("...his own death in his journal, writing, "Perhaps one needs...") breaks up the flow of the sentence
    • Have you come across other writer's who drop the comma before a quotation in this way? I don't recall coming across this style myself. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, the use of commas before quoted text is optional but not required. Explanation here.
  • changed to "committed suicide"
  • "first five volumes of his personal journals": could drop "personal"
  • Keeping as explained above
Style and influences[edit]
  • "he utilizes": not a fan of "utilizes" when "use" would do
  • changed to "uses"
  • "a purer form of traditional models": "the purer form"?
  • I don't think we could use "the" - it's not the only one or the definitive one
  • Really? I'll have to go back and revise some of my other articles as well! Removed the link
  • "His break from conventions": drop the plural
  • done
Legacy[edit]
  • "of the Negritude movement": accent again
  • fixed
  • "and celebrated its 75th anniversary in 2011": is unnecessary
  • removed
Works[edit]
  • Book titles should be in italics.
  • done
  • « Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo »: English doesn't use guillemets; this should be in double quotes
  • done
  • Translations of the titles would be nice
  • I tried to translated them in the body of the article - here they are only in English if they were published in English
    • Well, I'd prefer to see title translations still, but I'm not aware of an applicable guideline, so I'll let it go. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can do it - especially since some of the works are not named in the body of the text - although I don't know the translation of some of the Malagasy titles (can't find that anywhere). I'd just need to know how to fit the translation in - how would the reference be formatted? Lemurbaby (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions that won't affect support[edit]
  • You might want to throw a {{Portal|Colonialism|Madagascar|Poetry}} in there somewhere.
  • done

———Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:08, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Thanks for this thorough review, Curly Turkey. Your suggestions have helped improve the readability of the prose - much appreciated! - Lemurbaby (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Quadell[edit]

I thoroughly reviewed this article for GA status back in September, and I feel it is a strong FA nominee. There are a few nitpicks that weren't a problem for a GAN, but should be dealt with in a FAC. Most of these have been mentioned by Curly Turkey, above. In addition:

  • There are still a few serial comma issues (e.g. "Jean Amrouche, Paul Claudel, and Valery Larbaud" vs. "Rilke, Whitman and Góngora"). Be sure to be consistent throughout the article.
  • I believe this is fixed now.
  • Page number ranges need an en-dash, as in note 9. (I found no other format problems in the sources.)
This en dash is going to haunt me to the end of my days, seriously. I cannot figure out how to make an en dash short of using the old fashioned coding for it, which apparently is now being removed from WP by a bot. Can you or anyone tell me where the en dash is on my keyboard? - Lemurbaby (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
­If you use a French keyboard with a Compose key, you can type <<Compose>>, <<dash>>, <<dash>>, <<period>>. For an emdash: <<Compose>>, <<dash>>, <<dash>>, <<dash>>. You can also do {{subst:endash}}. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:59, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks! What about the QWERTY keyboard? Lemurbaby (talk) 05:16, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I use a Linux, and have remapped some of the keys (I'm an Emacs guy); I've remapped the "insert" key to be a "Compose" key, so I can input and French, and macrons for Japanese. If you don't use Linux, I don't know what the standard method is, but if you have a key on your keyboard you don't use (like the "insert" key), I'm sure some googling will show you how to remap it. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:23, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Besides that, it's an interesting and well-written biography that's well-sourced and follows MOS closely. I look forward to your improvements. – Quadell (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think I caught the last serial comma irregularity. Let me know your thoughts on the translation issue. Otherwise I think I've addressed what you've raised here. Thanks for coming back to take part in the FAC, and thanks again for the GA review as well. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm afraid I have no opinion on the translation issue, other than to opine that it's inherently and unavoidably confusing to have a title "Translated from the Night", which is translated from the French, in which he translates French into Malagasy. But what can you do? – Quadell (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, this is a fascinating article about a little-known writer who deserves wider recognition. It's well-written, impeccably sourced, and follows the MoS. – Quadell (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment[edit]

Many of the prose issues seem to have been highlighted above, so I'll be brief. Is there some way in which that "Works" section could be translated into English as partially done above? And I believe it is "Négritude" not "Negritude". 209.255.230.32 (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've now changed to the French spelling of Négritude throughout, and have ensured all the titles are translated to English in the text, but not in the listing of works, except where the work was published in English. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN2: I see May 2007 and 2011 on the article - where are you getting 2006 from?
  • Thanks for catching that. I changed it to 2011 - Lemurbaby (talk) 12:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • See also should be above Notes
  • FN11: missing accent on publisher name
  • Source for Senghor being "the seminal volume of poetry of the Négritude movement"? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- Looks like required checks have been done but need some more eyes on this for a comprehensive review. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

I concur with Quadell, this is an extremely solid article and well-meriting of FA.

I have a couple of minor reservations :-

  1. www.iarivo.org is not a source I'm familiar with, and is only used once, but I'm not sure how it measures up to WP:RS?
I've now replaced it with a much better book source. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Could "Romantic, post-symbolist" in the infobox not be linked to the articles associated with them, as sophisticated concepts in their own right? I believe Romantic poetry and, although post-symbolism doesn't seem to have an article, a half-link to Symbolism (arts)?
Good thinking - I've added the links.

Brigade Piron (talk) 12:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for reading it through and providing these suggestions. Much appreciated! - Lemurbaby (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. Support from me then! Brigade Piron (talk) 10:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Cliftonian[edit]

Leaning to support
Support

I have just read this through and I have to say, a really, really good job on this one, about a figure I must say I had never heard of. I found very few things to quibble about and enjoyed the article a lot. I fully expect to be supporting in due course once these minor issues have been cleared up.

Well done, supporting —Cliftonian (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • Why is there ambiguity about him being born in 1901 or 1903? I imagine it's just a case of the sources differing, but if this is so just say so (in the body, not the lead)
  • Actually, I'm not sure why there is ambiguity - even several of the sources state "either 1901 or 1903", suggesting Rabearivelo himself may not have known and may have used different dates on various documents. Unless I can find a source that states as much, though, I believe it may be best to simply leave it as is.
  • "widely considered to be Africa's first modern poet" I'm quite dubious about this statement. I see it is taken near-verbatim from the source, but it still irks me. Presumably we're not counting white poets from South Africa or north African Arabic poets. How are we defining "modern" poet anyway?
  • Yeah, this irks me too, but let's keep in mind the time period when that reputation was established - the 1940s, when the term "modern" was unabashedly synonymous with "Western"/European. Your question is very post-modern; the context in which his reputation was established was not. If we were to be precise, I would interpret this as meaning he's the first African poet to use contemporary European poetic forms - but none of the sources are that precise, so to avoid original research I think I've got to stick with the way this reality is described in the sources.
  • I note that here he's described as "Africa's first Modernist poet", while here he's "the first modern African poet in French". Hmmm. I've just spent a good while trying to find another way to do this and I can't think of a better way to handle this, so I think we'll just leave it. I think any way we could try to "fix" this would be an intrusive compromise nobody would like. So in this uncertainty, yes, I think you're right, we should leave this as it is, at least for now. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to complete his secondary education" why not just "to complete secondary education"
  • Changed
  • "Malagasy traditional poetry" shouldn't this be "traditional Malagasy poetry"?
  • Good call - changed
  • "Upon independence from France in 1960, the Government of Madagascar declared Rabearivelo its national poet" The previous sentence also ends "poet", so I'd rearrange this to "The Government of Madagascar declared Rabearivelo its national poet upon independence in 1960" (no need to say from France, as we've already said he grew up "under French colonization"
  • Changed
Childhood
  • "to grow up in colonial society" a little awkward ("colonial society" could imply that he grew up side-by-side with the colonists), maybe "to grow up under the colonial system"
  • Changed
  • Does the source say why he wanted to study Hebrew? I would say religious reasons, but we have just said he was kicked out of school partly because he didn't want to observe.
  • Unfortunately there's no explanation
Early period
  • "to buy books which he had shipped to Madagascar" why not "to buy books and ship them to Madagascar"
  • Changed
  • "for the remainder of his life" why not "for the rest of his life"
  • Changed
Late period
  • "He had also been promised to represent Madagascar at the 1937 Universal Exposition in Paris, but one month prior to Rabearivelo's death the French colonial authority informed him of his non-selection for the Malagasy delegation." Slightly clunky wording, try "He had also been promised that he would represent Madagascar at the 1937 Universal Exposition in Paris, but in May 1937 the colonial authorities informed him that he would not be part of the island's delegation."
  • That's much better - changed
Style and influences
  • I would move the quote box down to the bottom of this section and include it as part of the main body, as a cutaway quote
  • I think I'd like to maintain the box format and keep it up top as it communicates the key message of the section and nicely summarizes what it is about his style that makes him unique
Legacy
  • "Rabearivelo has long been considered the first modern poet in Africa" See point above. I suggest we find more sources to back this up, or reword.
  • I can add more sources
  • Since this is essentially the same issue as above I think it's easier I strike here and continue the debate up there —Cliftonian (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope all this helps, and if we don't correspond again before the holiday, a Merry Christmas to you! —Cliftonian (talk) 10:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- Great to see more people chipping in to help progress a review when needed, thanks all. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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