Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jarome Iginla/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:30, 16 June 2009 [1].

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Jarome Iginla

Nominator(s): Resolute 22:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/Jarome Iginla/archive1

Lets see if we can go two for two on hockey articles! I've been working on this article off and on for a couple months now. Its had a PR, its passed GA and several people have reviewed the article. After some final work, I believe this article is ready to face the scrutiny of the FAC process. All of the images are free, and all sources should be formatted properly. I do have a mild concern about the City Lights News reference, but wanted to see what reviewers have to say about it. This is the first BLP article I've taken to FAC, so go easy on me.  ;) Resolute 22:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support My general impression is positive, and my comments are mostly minor:
• Emulating Fuhr, he played goal in his first two years of organized hockey before switching to the right wing. - makes it sound like Fuhr switched to right wing.
• Despite hockey's status as a sport dominated by white players, Iginla rarely experienced any difficulties in minor and junior hockey because of his race. - I'm not too sure what this sentence is trying to tell us. "Person doesn't suffer racist abuse" surely ought to be the norm, not something noteworthy. Does minor league ice hockey have a reputation for institutional racism? One the other hand, it says "rarely" which implies that there were some difficulties but doesn't say what.
• As a result of his success, he and the Flames struggled to agree on a new contract following the season. - surely he'd have had more of a struggle agreeing a new contract if he'd played abysmally ;) Maybe something like "His success added complexities to contract negotiations" would be better?
• There are occasional uses of informal terms which ought to be changed for something more formal e.g. when he suited up for his 804th career game
• a disappointing playoffs led many to question if Iginla had been playing with an injury - who were the many?

• All of the above have been reworded.

• The tone of the article is overwhelmingly positive towards the subject. Now, this is far better than having the opposite, but it does lead to concerns about hagiography. Reading the article we hear that this guy sets goalscoring records, captains his team and is a really nice guy too. So why isn't he as well-known as Wayne Gretzky? Presumably there are aspects of his game which have weaknesses. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Well, fame is relative. Iginla is rewriting the Flames record book, but Gretzky rewrote the league record book. Also, Gretzky played a large chunk of his career the major media centres of Los Angeles and New York, while Iginla's been in Calgary his entire career. The most common fan complaint about Iginla is something I have not been able to find in a RS - that he has always turned down invitations from Hockey Canada to participate in the world championships. Some don't like that he apparently doesn't have enough "pride" at wearing the Canadian jersey as they would like. Lacking a reliable source for the argument though, I've not included it. Resolute 14:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments – First reaction here is also positive. Here are comments from the entire article. Normally I like to split them up, but I'm very busy here and want to get this review done in one shot.

• Why is there a comma after the birth date in the lead?
• Early life: "In addition to hockey, Iginla played baseball as a young man, where he was the catcher on the Canadian National Junior team." I don't see anything having to do with location before the comma, so try switching "where" to something else.

• Both comma issues fixed

• NHL career: Was there any media attention toward Iginla making his debut during the playoffs, or is that more common in hockey than I think?

• There wasn't much media attention, beyond the local coverage, that I was able to find. It is far more common for players to go to the minors when their junior season ends, but it isnt unheard of to go to the NHL directly. (Brennan Evans is another example of a Flame who's debut was in the playoffs)

• The Montreal Canadiens link here can be dropped, since there is already one in the previous section.
• Captaincy: "He was expected to play in the 2007 NHL All-Star Game in Dallas, however a knee injury forced him out of the game." Make the comma a semi-colon?
• I see "career low" and "career-high" a couple sentences apart.
• "He finished the season with 35 goals and 89 points, however a disappointing playoffs led to questions on whether Iginla had been playing with an injury." Another comma that should probably be a semi-colon.
• International play: "as Canada won its first Olympic gold medal in 50-years." Remove hyphen.
• Playing style: "Iginla is considered to be one of the pre-eminent power forwards in the game today." Watch time elements like "today"; I would just drop the word.
• Off the ice: "Iginla married his high school sweet heart". Is "sweet heart" normally two words in Canadian (British) English?
• "In 2002, while in Salt Lake City for the 2002 Winter Olympic Games". Drop one of the 2002s.

• Above issues fixed

• Does he have any endorsements besides Scotiabank?

• Probably. I'd have to search for it. The statement was a compromise with an editor who felt it was very important to have the Scotiabank reference in.

• I've found a source with another endorsement. Haven't found much else as of yet. Resolute 23:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• Is a page number possible for reference 61 (Globe and Mail)?

• I'd have to go to the library to get the back issue, but that will have to wait at least a week due to some issues irl.

• I agree with Oldelpaso on the Playing style section—it reads like his game is universally strong. Are there any criticisms of his game that are regularly provided by the hockey media?

• He is known as a player who has to be "riled up" at times to be truly effective. I'll have to search for some RSes.

• Thanks to Maclean25, who provided me with the article, I've added a couple of known weaknesses in his game to the playing style section from a 2004 scouting report. Resolute 23:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

• Don't forget your non-breaking spaces for statistics (as annoying as they are to put in). Giants2008 (17-14) 01:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• You may have to explain what you are looking for wrt non-breaking spaces, lol. Otherwise, everything else should be fixed, pending a source search. Thanks, Resolute 15:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Non-breakers are supposed to be in between units of measurement; many of the recent sports FAs contain them in statistics, like this: 24 goals (click edit tab to see formatting). I personally don't care that much, but there are many others here who do. If you want help with this, just let me know. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• It seems a little silly to me to, but it's also an easy change. Done. Resolute 15:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support – A very good article that is at a higher level than the other sports bios I've seen come through here lately. Sourcing and writing are both solid, and photos are also quite good. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support. A focused and well-crafted article. The City Light News reference which seems to be a reprint of an interview in Sports Spectrum magazine which seems ok but if you like you can reference it to "Superstar holds firm to faith: Jarome Iginla praises God for his scoring success; Don Retson. Edmonton Journal. Apr 20, 2002. p. B4." (but I haven't seen the 'mother is a Buddhist' thing anywhere. maclean 05:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment (I may or may not do a full review)

• "Iginla married his high school sweet heart, Kara, and the couple have three children:" the couple "has" or the couple "have"? Mm40 (talk) 11:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Fixed, thanks. Resolute 15:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, 1a, possibly 1b, and 1c. There are some prose issues to deal with, below, but not many. I ran across some possibly irregular use of sources, also listed below. My third concern is that I don't see anything here about race. I know black hockey players deal with such issues—you didn't find any sources that talk about Iginla dealing with racism on the ice? I have read similar stories about Anson Carter and others, so I know they exist. I see there is an Iginla biography at the bookstore—did you review its applicability?

• I had a statement in his early life section where Iginla stated he rarely experienced any sort of racism that I removed per a suggestion above. ([2]). However, while Iginla has talked about his race and hockey, I've not come across any significant story of racial prejudice. I will add another good anecdote to his early life section, however. As far as the biography goes, are you referring to The Sensational Jarome Iginla? I haven't read it, but given it's evident style, I am not certain it serves as anything more than a Hockey Canada self-promotional puff-piece. I will check it out, however, to see if there is anything of value. Breaking the Ice has a chapter on Iginla, but given the author seems to have written the book with the preconception that every accolade a black hockey player failed to win was the direct result of racism, I simply can not take it seriously on this topic without a second RS to support the belief, and I have found none.

• • "and finished as the runner-up in voting for the Calder Memorial Trophy as rookie of the year" What do you think of mentioning here who won, so we don't have to go look it up? (Bryan Berard? Seriously?)

• Yeah, seriously. And added.

• • "After losing all three games, scoring only three goals, the Flames agreed to a three-year contract worth US$4.9 million, plus bonuses." Careful not to imply something that the source may not. I didn't go digging for the source, but we need to check this.

• Fair enough. Simplified the statement to state only that he missed the first three games.

• • "Coming off an invite to Canada's Olympic summer camp before the season" What does this mean? He went or he didn't? Also, "coming off" is too colloquial, I think.

• Fixed

• • "... as Iginla finished tied in voting points with Canadiens goaltender José Théodore who was named MVP based on receiving a greater number of first place votes" This is ungainly and could bear revision. Among the issues, the "finished tied" is redundant; you can just write that someone "tied" and it has the same meaning.

• reworded

• • "However, one voter, believed to be from Quebec—Théodore and the Canadiens' home province—inexplicably left Iginla off his ballot entirely." Hm, careful. The source reads "rumoured", which is a fair bit apart from "believed". Overall, that bit seems like irresponsible journalism. Also, what is "entirely" doing?

• I've reworded to rumoured to match the source used. And while Dowbiggin might well be my least favourite sports journalist, the fact that a writer from Quebec deliberately left Iginla off is not really a rumour. Breaking the Ice discusses it as well, and I could probably find more sources if I spent some time digging through the Herald and Sun archives from the time of the vote.

• • "Iginla was a member of Team Canada's Olympic gold medal–winning hockey team in 2002." Is that an en dash? Should be a hyphen.

• lol, oops. Fixed

• • "This did not come to pass, as he signed a two-year ..." Yuck.. much prefer "These fears were unfounded, as he signed ..."

• Good point, reworded

• • Regarding his being the first "black" captain... you say it outright in the lead, but later on you mention that this status is dubious. That's a bit misleading.

• This kind of lies in the question of "how black is black", which is why there is some debate. I've reworded the lead to match the body

• • "said former captain Craig Conroy of his decision to relinquish the captaincy to Iginla."

• Not sure what you are concerned about here.

• • "his $7-million per season wage was considered to be less than he would have received had he tested free agency." Why the hyphen? And, considered by whom? This is the problem with using passive tense. The source is subscription-only.

• The hyphen is because I get nailed on that all the time and haven't quite figured it out yet.  ;) And yeah, Duhatschek left the Globe not too long ago, but the paper immediately threw all his work behind paywalls. I was trying to show the contrast in this contract deal vs his first two, which were quite contentious. I removed everything but what his pay is.

• • Why "quarter-finals"? The source uses no hyphen.

• I believe that "quarterfinals" and "quarter-finals" are both valid, and since I am not using a direct quote, went with what I typically use. It's a carry over from my work with junior articles, as the WHL often hyphenates the words.

• • "Not a fast skater, opponents are able to restrict his ability to move if his teammates rely on him to lead the offence too much." Dangling modifier ("not a fast skater" incorrectly modifies "opponents") and... I'm not sure about using a 5-year-old scouting report to make a general statement written as if anyone has said it still applies today. I would prefer you qualify that this came from a scouting report.

• If I didn't think it was still applicable, I wouldn't have used it.  ;) I've tried rewording, though I'm not entirely sure I am satisfied with the new wording.

--Laser brain (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate the review. Hopefully I have addressed your concerns. Resolute 23:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support, I think everything has been addressed. The Conroy thing was a mistake; I was going to comment that I thought coaches had to transfer the captaincy, but I was mistaken. The Sensational Jarome Iginla doesn't look too serious. Good work! --Laser brain (talk) 02:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Image review: all images are self-taken and appropriately licensed for free use. No issues. Jappalang (talk) 08:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• FLAMES SUCK!!!!111!! Er, I mean Comments - Generally excellent, as expected. I've done some copyediting and light rewriting that you might want to have a look at to make sure it's okay: [3] A few issues before I support:
  • "Iginla scored 33 goals and 71 points in 1994–95, his first full WHL season." We could maybe do with some explanation of what made 1993-94 not a full season for him; did he join the team part way through the season, or was he just not a regular player, or what?
  • The section on the Hart voting is slightly confusing; why was it inexplicable for a voter to leave Iginla off his ballot?
  • The timelines are slightly confused in the last paragraph before "Captaincy". What is meant by "2002 season"? The use of the phrase "before the season" in the next sentence suggests that the season being referred to is the same as the one in the previous sentence, which I gather it isn't.
  • "Iginla fell back to 67 points in 2002–03 as he battled injuries..." Did he miss many games as a result of these injuries, or was it just that they diminished his performance?
  • "He was a leader on that team and old enough to where he'd been there a long time." This sentence doesn't make any sense to me; I see that it's faithfully copied from the source, but if I'm correct that it doesn't make sense it might not be the best choice to include.
  • The article varies on the capitalization of "Most Valuable Player"; is there a reason for this?
  • I don't spend a lot of time in sports articles, so I'm not sure what conventions are regarding tone, but much of the language in this article seems more in keeping with the language of sports journalism than what I'd initially expect from a Wikipedia FA ("suited up", etc.). I won't oppose over it, but I wanted to bring the point up for discussion.
  • There's a section devoted to international play, but international tournaments are also mentioned in "Junior career" and "NHL career"; is there a reason for this?
  • The medal record table does not include the 2006 Olympics; I presume that this is because Canada did not medal there, but I'm concerned that the omission makes it look like Canada has won gold at every event at which Iginla has competed. Thoughts? Is this a well-established convention in sports articles?
  • Do we know when he was married? The year seems conspicuously absent from the sentence describing his marriage. To me, anyway.

That's about it; I look forward to supporting. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 08:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.