Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/George Town, Penang/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 11 March 2024 [1].

George Town, Penang[edit]

Nominator(s): hundenvonPG (talk) 03:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the capital city of Penang, one of the most urbanised and economically-developed Malaysian states. I've substantially rewritten the article & improved citations, with meticulous selection of government statistics, academic literature, economic studies, news sources and other official websites. Following that, a peer review was initiated and amendments incorporated, leading to this nomination. Looking forward to further feedback to eventually elevate this article to FA status. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a full review, but...
  • The infobox is a real doorstopper and it is causing the images in the history section to sandwich, contrary to MOS:IMAGELOC. Try to see if some of the images or less important fields in the infobox can be removed and ensure that any image sandwiching is eliminated. Some of the infobox fields are not cited in the article (or in the infobox) meaning that they may not be important. (It's essential that they are cited somewhere, per WP:V).
  • Done Infobox is trimmed & citations added, and photo & caption arrangements are less cluttered. I did what I could to reduce image sandwiching in the history section by cutting down images.hundenvonPG (talk) 13:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are sandwiching elsewhere in the article, such as between the "Historical population" and "Ethnicities of George Town in 2020" tables.
  • Done Likewise, images have been trimmed throughout the article and most are aligned to the left. Hopefully this should take care of the sandwiching in most parts.hundenvonPG (talk) 13:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd advise against image collages such as the one captioned " Clockwise from top left: Tanjong Bungah Floating Mosque, Kek Lok Si, St. George's Church and Arulmigu Sri Mahamariamman Temple". Additionally, why are these buildings so important that they must be pictured in the article? Two that I checked aren't even mentioned in the prose. If it is included, probably an architecture section would be more relevant.
  • Citation style in the lead is inconsistent
  • Done Citation styles in the lead amended where possible and more citations added for good measure, although I'm unsure if there are any more inconsistencies that exist and if this is consistent with MOS:LEADCITE.hundenvonPG (talk) 13:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(t · c) buidhe 04:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brachy08[edit]

Hi!, Brachy08 here. Since the nominator asked me to come, I’m here! I have two GA reviews I’m in (Alaska Thunderfuck and Perfect graph). I will leave comments.

Great to see you here @Brachy0008:! Will be making needed amendments as you go. hundenvonPG (talk) 05:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are citations in the lead. No citations in the lead (per WP:LEADCITE)
  • Done Concurred. The earlier feedback above pointed to inconsistent citation styles for the lead, but I was unsure if lead citations are in accordance with WP:LEADCITE. Clearing citations from the lead for the time being. hundenvonPG (talk) 05:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citations are not required in the lead, but the lead also can't have novel information. The current situation is worse, as there is now unsourced information. The optimal course of action would be to transfer all information (and associated citations) into the body, and then reappraise the lead based on the entire article rather than just whatever information was cited there before. CMD (talk) 06:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm I see. Thanks for pointing out @Chipmunkdavis:. It's rather grey, the subject of lead citations. All information in the four paras are further delved into in the body further down, so basically the current paras are as intended: an introduction to the rest of the article.
But I'm also looking at Manchester, another FA of a secondary city. Would limiting citations to just one per sentence (as in the Manchester article) be just the right middle ground?
Meantime, previous good version restored for the time being while further amendments to the lead paras are being figured out. hundenvonPG (talk) 07:19, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's mostly there, just not completely. Having a closer look, the points that stand out are "George Town now serves as the economic centre for northern Malaysia and has been rated a 'Gamma −' level global city by the Globalization and World Cities Research Network in 2020" and "George Town remains the financial centre of northern Malaysia and a high-tech manufacturing hub", in both cases the importance to northern Malaysia does not seem covered, the Gamma level is not covered, and the high-tech hub is mentioned as a future goal. CMD (talk) 07:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, got it now. It's more about the coverage further below than the citations.
Done I've made the following amendments:
  • Prose about Gamma level global city has been moved to the economics section, with a shortened mention in the lead.
  • Prose about the city's role as the financial hub of northern Malaysia is similarly moved to the economics section, while the sentence in the lead para is combined with the global city ranking for more concise paraphrasing.
  • The mention about the high-tech hub in the lead is removed. The following prose about the hundreds of multinationals in its technology sector should sufficely cover its significance in high-tech manufacturing. hundenvonPG (talk) 12:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note[edit]

This has been open for three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:12, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding this to WP:FACURGENT in the hopes of getting more participation. Following up with involved editors @Buidhe:, @Brachy0008: and @Chipmunkdavis:. hundenvonPG (talk) 14:48, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I kinda wonder about the prevalence of one-two line long paragraphs. Some of them might be mergeable or expandable? Also, reviewing other people's FAC nominations is often a way to draw attention to your own. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:31, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Jo-Jo Eumerus. This is my first FA nomination & to be honest, I'm still in the process of learning the ropes. But if this gets passed, rest assured, from the experience gained, I would make an attempt to review others.

Comments by Epicgenius[edit]

I hope to have a few comments in the next few days. I do notice that this article is about 8,500 words long, so it may take a while for me to get through the whole article. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:58, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, I'll get to this on Monday. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey User:Epicgenius. Glad to see your feedback too. Will be making amendments as per the recommendations here. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here are my initial comments.
Lead:
  • Paragraph 1: "was home to a population of 794,313 as of 2020." - This seems redundant. If George Town has a population of 794,313, by definition it is home to 794,313 people.
  • Done Point taken. Rewritten to: "had a population of 794,313". Much simpler for the lead, I reckon. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "Initially established as an entrepôt by Francis Light in 1786" - Is he the founder of the British settlement alluded to in paragraph 3?
  • Yes, Francis Light is the founder of the settlement. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "It exhibits the highest potential in Malaysia for revenue growth and contributed nearly 8% of the country's personal disposable income, second only to Kuala Lumpur." - It may be helpful to add the date when the 8% figure was taken (i.e. "contributed nearly 8% of the country's personal disposable income, second only to Kuala Lumpur, as of 2015").
Etymology:
  • Yes, but not for the settlement itself. Tanjung Penaga was the name of the cape, believed to be in use before the arrival of Light, thus it was more of a name for a geographic feature. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Establishment:
  • Para 2: "George Town was the first of British colonial possessions in Southeast Asia" - This should be either "George Town was the first of the British colonial possessions in Southeast Asia" or, if it was the absolute first British colonial possession in SEA, "George Town was the first British colonial possession in Southeast Asia".
  • Done Rephrased to "George Town was the first British colonial possession" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "After the area was cleared, Light instructed the construction of Fort Cornwallis" - Maybe it's an WP:ENGVAR issue, but usually I would use a word like "oversaw", rather than "instructed", in this context.
  • Done Noted on the nuances too. Changed to "oversaw". hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
British rule:
  • Para 5: "More investments were also made on the settlement's health care and public transportation" - The wording implies that there had been previous investments in transportation and health care. Is this correct?
  • Yes indeed. Prior to the elevation to crown colony status, the Straits Settlements only had "a rudimentary health care infrastructure" (to quote from Giok Ling's cite) and it was after political reorganisations in Malaya that more hospitals and urban sanitary boards were established. Ditto to transportation where trolleybuses and rail lines like the Penang Hill Railway were only introduced by the municipal government after the elevation. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
World Wars:
  • Para 4: "making it first settlement in Malaya to be liberated from the Japanese." - This should be "making it the first settlement in Malaya to be liberated from the Japanese."
  • By the way, did anything of note happen between the two world wars?
  • From available sources (especially Barber's book on Penang during the two world wars), nothing major. There was a rise of political consciousness among the Chinese (which was covered somewhat in the preceding section on Chinese migrants) and military preparations (proven inadequate during the course of the Japanese invasion). hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Post-war:
  • Para 1: "A petition at the time warned that hitching Penang to Malaya" - Per MOS:IDIOM, I'd personally use a synonym of "hitching". Does "annexing" carry the same connotation?
  • Done "Hitch" was the word used in Barber's book (where the quote was sourced). Though yes, being outside the quote, it could be rephrased. Changed to "incorporation of Penang into Malaya", to avoid repetition of "annexation" already used in the preceding sentences. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "By 1956, George Town became Malaya's first fully-elected municipality" - Do you literally mean by 1956 (i.e. George Town may have become Malaya's first fully-elected municipality at some point before 1956) or in 1956 (i.e. George Town became Malaya's first fully-elected municipality that same year)?
  • Done You're right. Should be "in". The British had planned for a semi-elected government structure and I've yet to discover if the transition to a fully-elected local government was pre-planned. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Post-independence:
  • Para 3: "when the Malaysian federal government rescinded George Town's free port status" - Any specific reason why this happened? It would be interesting to know why, given that George Town had been a free port for over a century at that point.
  • I'm personally curious as well. Available sources didn't adequately delve into the "why", but from Daniel Goh's and Prema-chandra's citations, the revocation coincided with a larger federal government shift in development priorities as they sought to channel resources for the capital Kuala Lumpur and the adjacent Port Klang. The revocation itself, coupled with a regime change in Penang the same year, prompted the new state government to engage Robert R. Nathan Associates (as per Prema-chandra's cite) in a massive economy restructuring, so in hindsight, this revocation was not something that was pre-planned and the state economy took a substantial hit in consequence of that. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "setting the stage" - This is also something that could be reworded per MOS:IDIOM.
  • Done Replaced "setting the stage" with "leading to" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 4: "outside the city's periphery" - This phrase implies that Bayan Lepas FIZ was not even in George Town's metropolitan area. I think you meant to say "at the city's periphery" or "outside the city".
  • Done Indeed. At that point, the zone was outside the city limits. Rephrased to "outside the city". hundenvonPG (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Renaissance:
  • Para 1: "and a brain drain" - I would say "and brain drain" without "a".
  • Para 2: "led to George Town's inscription as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2008" - I would link Historic Cities of the Straits of Malacca somewhere, as that was the listing that was actually inscribed. In addition, the Historic Cities of the Straits of Malacca article implies that only George Town's city center was inscribed.
  • Done Indeed that was the case: only a portion of the city centre was inscribed. Rephrasing to: "Following subsequent heritage conservation efforts, a portion of the city centre was designated a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2008" & a link added to Historic Cities of the Straits of Malacca. hundenvonPG (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Geography:
  • Para 1: "In comparison, George Town" - I don't think you need the linking phrase "In comparison". You could just say "George Town is only slightly more than two-fifths the size of Singapore" (I recommend "two-fifths" rather than the fraction 2/5, as MOS:FRACTIONS recommends spelling out fractions if both numerator and denominator can be spelled as one word, which is the case here).
  • Done Thanks for pointing out MOS for fractions. Amended as per recommendation. hundenvonPG (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "touted as the smallest national park in the world" - This wording begs the question "who touted it?". I think you can just say that it is the smallest national park in the world, or that Time Out Penang said that.
  • Para 4: "Like most island cities," - I'm nitpicking at this point, but do the sources actually say that most island cities actually have this problem, or is this just a guess? If it's the latter, I'd remove it.
  • Done Removed said prose & amended sentence to "As land scarcity is a pressing issue in George Town" hundenvonPG (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 4: "As of 2015, George Town expanded by 9.5 km2 (3.7 sq mi)" - Compared to which starting date?
  • Done Rephrased to "Between 1960 and 2015", as per Su Yin's citation. hundenvonPG (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Climate:
  • No issues.
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Epicgenius, not wishing to nag but enquiring as to if and when the more is likely to arrive? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:34, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about this, I forgot all about it. I should have more new comments by Monday (I will be celebrating my birthday this weekend so I may have limited internet access). – Epicgenius (talk) 20:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Local governance:
  • Para 2: It took a few seconds for me to realize what the India Board was. I think adding a short description of the board here (e.g. UK governmental department) would be helpful.
  • Done Agreed. Added short description: "an administrative body of British India" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "were suspended since 1965 and have not been reinstated since" - The word "since" is repeated here, and the first use of the word is not entirely grammatically correct. This can be fixed in one of two ways. You can change "since" to "in", or you can change the entire thing to "have been suspended since 1965".
  • Done Rephrased to "have been suspended since 1965" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: Is the mayor part of the city council?
Yes, and the Mayor heads the city council. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 5: "which would have paved the way for the return of city government elections for the first time since the 1960s" - The phrase "paved the way" is idiomatic, and I think it can be reworded (e.g. "would have allowed city government elections for the first time since the 1960s".
  • Done Point taken. Rewritten to "would have allowed city government elections" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
State and national representation:
  • Para 1: "Penang's legislature is convened in the State Assembly Building in Light Street since 1959." - Instead of saying "is convened", I'd say "has been convened",
  • Para 3: "In the 2023 state election, PH successfully retained 17 of George Town's state constituencies" - It seems like "successfully" may be redundant here (unless it is possible to unsuccessfully retain constituencies).
  • Done True, "retained" already carries the meaning. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Judiciary:
  • Para 1: I'd remove the duplicate link to "Light Street" here.
Demographics:
  • No issues with the first paragraph.
Ethnicities:
  • Para 1: "As of 2020, the Chinese formed more than half of the city's population" - For some reason, the phrase "the Chinese" makes it sound like actual citizens of China formed more than half of the city's population. I would go with "people of Chinese descent" or even just "Chinese" (without "the").
  • Done Indeed. The Chinese being referred to here are Malaysian citizens. Removed "the" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "Peranakan Chinese culture still thrives in the city to this day" - I would remove "to this day" as it is redundant to "still".
  • Para 3: "In recent years" - I would add a date (e.g. as of 2022), as this info is liable to become outdated.
  • Done Noted. Replaced "In recent years" with "As of 2022" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 4: I think it can be clarified that expatriates specifically includes non-Malaysians.
  • Done Replaced "expatriates" with "non-Malaysian citizens" for better clarity hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 4: "It has also been described by news outlets such as CNN as one of the best cities for retirement" - One of the best in Malaysia, or in the world?
  • Done Added "in the world", as per the CNN cite that lists cities for retirement worldwide. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Languages:
  • Are there any data on how much of the population speaks each particular language, e.g. English or Hokkien?
To my knowledge, the Department of Statistics Malaysia doesn't enumerate language groups (in contrast to censuses from the British era that did). There is another citation from Think City that includes language groups, but it only covers one portion of the city. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "distinct English-speaking groups within the Chinese and Indian communities" - I suppose this means they have different English dialects.
In this case, it is more to the existence of English-speaking Chinese and Indians that are in stark contrast to those who received vernacular education (and who typically use their mother tongues). There is even the pejorative term "banana" being used to describe Chinese who prefer English above their mother tongues (here is a casual article for additional context). hundenvonPG (talk) 02:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "Like the rest of Malaysia, Malay is currently Penang's official language." - I would say "Like in the rest of Malaysia".
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Economy:
  • Para 1: "The city's economy is largely driven by manufacturing and services" - It may be useful to briefly summarize the specific types of manufacturing/services (e.g. electronics) in which the city specializes.
  • Done Added the largest subsectors by GDP into the sentence (as per DOSM cite): electronics and optical manufacturing, hospitality, wholesale and retail trade, logistics, finance, and real estate. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I noticed that all three images in this section are in the left. I have no problem with that, but MOS:IMAGELOC does recommend that most images be on the right side of the page, as "Left-aligned images may disturb the layout of bulleted lists and similar structures that depend on visual uniformity". At the very least, I recommend moving File:Northam Road, George Town, Penang 2023.jpg to the right; on any screen larger than 1280x1024 (which is what I use on my primary monitor), this image pushes down the image in the "Services" section.
  • Done Thank you so much for pointing this out. Shifted all photos after the history section to the right side for uniformity. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Manufacturing:
  • Para 2: "technology players" seems a bit informal, unless that's what the source says; I'd just use "technology firms".
  • Para 3: "In 2022, the Penang International Airport, which lies adjacent to the zone, saw an estimated RM385 billion worth of exports, making it the highest export contributor of all ports of entry in Malaysia." - Instead of "highest export contributor", would it make sense to say just "largest exporter"? Or is this wording used for a specific reason?
  • Done Indeed, "largest exporter" works just as well. Rephrased. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general, does the city specialize in manufacturing a particular item? Or does the city specialize in manufacturing a lot of different types of electronics?
  • Now DOSM has never drilled down to city-level economics, but from their cite, Penang produces a range of electronic and industrial components. Major ones are: integrated circuitry, piezoelectric crystals, spare parts, and a separate category of "other electronic and electric components" (based on said DOSM cite). hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additionally, are electronics the only or main product that George Town exports?
  • Scientific and measuring equipment, and telecommunications tools as well. Though electronics form the bulk of Penang's exports. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Finance:
  • Para 2: "Apart from banking and ancillary services, the CBD is also home to federal financial institutions" - "Also" is redundant to "apart from" here.
Services:
  • Para 1: "George Town is traditionally regarded as one of Malaysia's most popular tourist destinations" - The phrasing "traditionally regarded" might need a secondary source, if this is an opinion held by specific people. Otherwise, you could just say "George Town has traditionally been one of Malaysia's most popular tourist destinations".
  • Done The latter prose works just as well. Rephrased to "George Town has traditionally been one of Malaysia's most popular tourist destinations". hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "the Penang International Airport (PIA)" - Three points here. The airport is already linked above, in the Manufacturing section. The abbreviation PIA should be used where it's first mentioned, which is in Manufacturing. Finally, I'm wondering if people actually say "the PIA" in Malaysia, because in the US we would just say "PIA" (without "the").
  • Para 3: "Measures to promote economic diversification has led to George Town" - This should just be "measures ... have".
  • Para 3: "with the industry generating an economic impact of about RM1.3 billion" - The phrase "generating an economic impact" sounds a bit strange to me. In my view, it either generated RM1.3 billion directly, or it had an economic impact of RM1.3 billion.
  • Done Rephrased to "had an economic impact"; I reckon it accounts for indirect economic spillover. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 5: Does "Global Business Services" refer to Global Business Services? If so, I'd link it; if not, I'd lowercase the term because it seems to be a common-noun phrase.
  • Done In this case, nope it's not a division of IBM, but rather a business concept where multinationals shift some services to overseas locations. Rectified to lowercase as it's a noun phrase. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Architecture:
  • Para 3: "The tallest skyscrapers in the city include the Komtar Tower, Marriott Residences and Muze @ PICC." - Out of interest, how tall are these buildings?
  • Komtar is 249 metres tall, followed by Marriott Residences at 223 metres (believed to be the first Marriot-branded hotel in the city) and Muze at 205 metres. There hasn't been a supertall in Penang yet (although from observation and the most recent photographs, more skyscrapers/high-rises are being built). hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "Demand for residential high-rises at the suburbs has also surged," - As of which date?
  • Done Rewritten to: "There has been a surge in demand for residential high-rises at the suburbs since 2016", as per the Edgeprop cite. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does George Town have a local heritage designation? I notice that paragraph 2 says, "The Penang Island City Council has officially identified 3,642 heritage buildings inside the UNESCO-demarcated zone", but it's not clear whether the city council has identified these buildings as having been designated by UNESCO, or whether the city council gave these buildings additional city-landmark status.
  • I believe it's a local heritage designation. The 3,642 buildings in the city council's local plan are further divided into Categories I and II, which according to the state-linked George Town World Heritage Incorporated, serve to differentiate the structure's use and levels of legal protection. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Parks:
  • Para 3: "It is divided into four distinct sections" - "Distinct" seems redundant here.
  • Do you know how many parks George Town has, and/or the total amount of space currently devoted to parks?
  • According to the local plan, 629.7 hectares for recreational facilities, equivalent to 2.1% of the city's land use. Almost every neighbourhood has some sort of pocket-sized parks so accounting for all the parks within the city is a tall ask. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arts:
  • Para 2: "In 2018, the George Town Literary Festival won the International Literary Festival Award" - Since you mention the starting date of the George Town Festival, it may also be helpful to mention the starting date of the George Town Literary Festival.
  • Para 3: "George Town's arts revival has left a significant impact on its cityscape." - Was there a significant art scene in the 19th and 20th centuries? The examples mentioned in this section are all from the 21st century.
  • Done Interesting question. I think the arts scene only really took off in the last few decades; the city wasn't particularly known for arts when compared to its past reputation in print media and as a centre for political movements. Removed prose about arts revival for a more direct para on the arts scene. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cuisine:
  • Para 1: "Described by CNN as "the food capital of Malaysia", George Town's unique culinary scene" - Two things here. The sentence should be reworded so that it's clear that George Town, not its culinary scene, is what was described by CNN as "the food capital of Malaysia", e.g. "George Town's culinary scene, which led CNN to describe it as "the food capital of Malaysia"...". Second, "unique" is one of the words to watch and might not be necessary, anyway (if it weren't unique, the Wikipedia article would likely have already said as much).
  • Done Point taken. Shifted "Described by CNN as "the food capital of Malaysia" to the next sentence together with other media mentions. Sentence now reads "George Town's culinary scene incorporates Malay, Chinese, Indian, Peranakan and Thai influences, evident in the range of available street food that includes char kway teow, asam laksa and nasi kandar". hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "The 2024 edition of the Michelin Guide features 53 eateries throughout George Town, including two with one-star ratings" - Two restaurants with one Michelin star? There is a major difference between a restaurant with one Michelin star (which is one of the best in the world) and a one-star rating (which in the US is a low rating).
  • Done I see. Admittedly I'm not entirely familiar with Michelin Guides. Removed the mention on one-star ratings as it sounds awkward in this case. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It may be helpful to mention what types of dishes are often served in Penang.
Sports:
  • Are soccer (football) and equestrian sports the main sports in the city? I ask because Penang F.C. and Penang Turf Club are the only specific sports teams or clubs mentioned in this section.
  • There's more, to be sure. It's just that only those George Town-based sports clubs have WP articles. Racket sports like badminton (large dedicated facilities are being built) and squash are arguably very popular in the city too. Fun fact, former squash queen Nicol David was from this city. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is interesting. I guess you could briefly mention badminton and squash if they're also significant sports. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done Thought so too. Added a sentence on the dedicated training facilities for badminton and squash. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should finish this off by Friday. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Education:
  • Para 2: "heralding the birth of Malaysia's modern Chinese education system" - I would use a more formal wording than "heralding the birth"; my suggestion is something like "marking the start".
  • Done Agreed, sounds more formal that way. Rephrased as per suggestion. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "that cater to the city's expatriate community" - Not 100% sure if this is redundant to "international and expatriate schools", but I personally would be surprised if expatriate schools weren't for expatriates.
  • Done Point taken. Summarised sentences to: "12 international and expatriate schools that offer either British, American or International Baccalaureate syllabuses" hundenvonPG (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Healthcare:
  • Para 1: Usually, hospitals are referred to as "1,100-bed", "81-bed", etc. facilities.
  • Para 1: Are Penang General and Balik Pulau hospitals the only public hospitals?
  • Yes, these are the only public hospitals within the city. Private hospitals far outnumber the public ones. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Media:
  • I suggest splitting the first two paragraphs into a "Newspapers" section.
  • Done Created a "Newspapers" section for the two paras. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Transportation:
Land:
  • "serves as an important thoroughfare" - How about "is an important thoroughfare"?
  • "George Town Inner Ring Road is earmarked to function" - Similarly you can just say "George Town Inner Ring Road functions".
Public transportation:
  • Para 1: Do you know when the tram system was abolished?
  • Done According to Ric Francis's cite, the last trams were phased out by trolleybuses in 1936 (those buses were in turn replaced by motor buses in 1961). Rewritten sentence as such: "Although trams became obsolete by 1936".
Personally I find this quite a pity; the trams could've been a great alternative transport in a city now packed with cars, and the only reminders of their existence are the tracks themselves that were uncovered just about two decades ago. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 3: "average daily traffic reaching as high as 64,144 vehicles" - In this context, "as high as" is redundant.
  • Para 3: "The Bayan Lepas LRT ... is being prioritised for construction" - As of which date? If it's being developed, there is a chance that this would become outdated later, so adding an {{As of}} template would help.
Air:
  • No issues.
Sea:
  • Para 2: Does the ferry service also operate out of Swettenham Pier? If so, it should be clarified. If not, then the {{Main}} template probably should be {{See also}}.
  • Done The ferries run out of a separate facility - the Raja Tun Uda Ferry Terminal. Swettenham Pier only serves cruise ships. In this case, I think it'd be better to remove the "main" template and rewrite the sentence on ferries (by adding in a mention of the ferry terminal) for better clarity. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Utilities:
  • Para 2: "In a bid to reduce energy consumption, the Penang Island City Council and TNB have replaced all 33,101 street lights throughout George Town with LED street lighting by 2023." - Two things here. I would remove "in a bid" as redundant. I would also change "have replaced" to "replaced" as the completion of the project is mentioned further in the sentence (and has already happened).
  • Para 3: By the way, is there any public wi-fi in the city?
There used to be this "Penang Free Wi-Fi" service since 2009, but it was suspended in 2019 (likely already obsolete by then, as 5G connectivity was being developed at that stage). Turns out the free wi-fi was replaced by "smart poles" with 5G capabilities around 2022/2023. ([2] and [3]) hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notable people:
  • Does this list include anyone who wasn't born in George Town?
  • Done Nope. All 12 names in the list were born somewhere within George Town. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, this is a great article. Thanks for your patience over the past month - it was quite long, but I found only relatively minor issues. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:24, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for thoroughly looking through too Epicgenius Should be much improved now, having addressed all the points. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. I support this article for promotion to FA status. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much Epicgenius hundenvonPG (talk) 10:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC[edit]

Putting down a marker for me. (Same comment as Epicgenius about the length and the time it'll take). - SchroCat (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SchroCat. Will be making amendments as we go along the rest of the article. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:12, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources (although this is not a source review)
  • There are a few shouty refs in there, which should be changed
  • Done Rectified all caps titles in citations.
  • There is also inconsistency in whether you use sentence case or to capitalise each word for web references (compare, just as one example, citations 233 and 234).
  • Done Amended to title cases for all citations (capitalising each word).
  • Check that page ranges are pp, not p (#140) and there is a close to the page range (#45, 66, 110, 111, 182, 311)
  • Done Rectified pages.
Lead
  • Any need for so many citations in the lead?
  • Done Now there is some back-and-forth about the lead citations, as can be seen in the earlier discussions above. Some have suggested that citations be removed from the lead, but editor CMD argued that the lead shouldn't contain novel information. Going by all the feedback thus far and using Manchester as some sort of an example, information in the lead paras have also been covered in the lower sections, thus I've trimmed citations in the lead paras to just a few. Would this be sufficient?
Etymology
  • 'Penang': double quote marks, rather than single
  • Done
  • "which in actual fact is the name" -> "which is the name"
  • Done
  • "that includes mainland Seberang Perai": I'm not sure what this is saying – partly because it's not clear what "Seberang Perai" is without having to go elsewhere to find out, and it's not clear (at this point in the body) that George Town is an island...
  • Done The sentence has been trimmed to "which is the name of the larger state" (as Penang is indeed larger than just George Town). I've also amended the lead para to add a brief mention of George Town's jurisdiction encompassing the island and surrounding islets.
Establishment
  • "and the new settlement of George Town – the first of British colonial possessions in Southeast Asia – was established in honour of King George III": you told us in the previous sentence that it was founded in honour of George, so everything after the second dash is superfluous. I'd suggest you reword to make the point of the sentence that this was the first British colony in SE Asia
  • Done. The sentence has been split and I've added in some context of George Town's establishment being the beginning of British colonisation of Malaya.
  • "The first streets": -> "The first roads" (which means you don't duplicate the word "Streets" so closely)
  • Done

More to come. - SchroCat (talk) 11:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

British rule
  • " also composed of Singapore": -> "also comprised Singapore..."
  • "However, the capital was then shifted to Singapore in 1832, as the latter had outperformed George Town as the region's preeminent harbour" -> "As Singapore outperformed George Town as the region's pre-eminent harbour, it was made the capital in 1832."
  • Done Rewritten to: "In 1832, the administrative centre was relocated to Singapore, as it outperformed George Town and became the preeminent harbor in the region." hundenvonPG (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pre-eminent", with a hyphen, as this is BrEng. - SchroCat (talk) 14:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Got it, corrected to "pre-eminent". hundenvonPG (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "playing second fiddle": Avoid MOS:IDIOM's wherever possible. Add to your reading list Orwell's 1946 essay "Politics and the English Language". It contains six rules to follow for writing better English (if you don't have time for the whole essay, its rules are codified here. Number three is if it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
  • Done Rephrased to: "Despite its secondary importance to Singapore". hundenvonPG (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "attracting international banks to its shores" -> "attracting international banks." (Also Orwell's rule number one)
  • "within a mere four decades": -> "within four decades". hundenvonPG (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "plagued" MOS:IDIOM (and it may be worth making clear if there were secret criminal societies. Secret societies in themselves may not be a problem
  • Done Rewritten as such: "Law enforcement and immigration control were gradually strengthened to suppress organised crime." hundenvonPG (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "George Town was perceived as being more intellectually receptive than Singapore": I think you'll need to attribute that perception to someone or some group – it's a bit of a broad brush statement otherwise
  • Done I've rewritten parts of the para. The prose about George Town being more intellectually receptive than Singapore is attributed to Mary Turnbull, thus a quote from a citation of Turnbull's is also included. hundenvonPG (talk) 14:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "became a magnet for English authors" MOS:IDIOM

Next section. - SchroCat (talk) 09:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing:

British rule
  • "flocked to the settlement": MOS:IDIOM. Try "as mercantile firms and international banks were established". Less words, more formal and says the same thing.
World Wars
  • "at the mercy of the impending Japanese onslaught": A little heavy handed, I think. Maybe, "leaving the settlement's Asian residents undefended against a Japanese invasion"?
  • Done with slight changes to "the Japanese advance". hundenvonPG (talk) 13:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Japanese military police notoriously imposed": -> "Japanese military police imposed"
Post-war
  • "Penang's absoprtion": -> "Penang's absorption".
Renaissance
  • "Whilst": -> "While"
  • "declared a city by Queen Elizabeth II in 1957": -> "been declared a city in 1957" (You've already told us by who)

Done to the end of history. - SchroCat (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Local governance
  • "is listed as a national monument": -> "has been listed as a national monument"
  • "Today, the": Per MOS:DATED, avoid "today" and similar. "As at 2024" is the bettr route
  • Done Thanks for pointing this out. "Today", "current" and "now" have been removed where appropriate, but do let me know if any such phrasing still exists. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The current mayor", "present-day ruling coalition": MOS:DATED again
  • Done As per preceding point. "Present-day ruling coalition" rephrased to "incumbent Pakatan Harapan". hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
State and national representation
  • "Komtar, the city's tallest skyscraper": you've already mentioned it's the city's tallest skyscraper, so delete
  • "located at Scotland Road. ... Building at Light Street": "in", not "at"
Judiciary
  • "Penang High Court at Light Street": "in" (twice in text and once in caption)

Done to the end of Demographics. More to come. - SchroCat (talk) 15:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Manufacturing
  • "startup" -> "start-up"
Services
  • "its famous culinary scene" -> "its culinary scene"
  • Done Rephrased to "In addition to its role as a freight exporter, the PIA ranks as the third busiest airport in the country in passenger volume." hundenvonPG (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Architecture
  • Done Rephrased to "expanding tourism offerings in specific areas"
  • 'notable for the "unique architectural and cultural townscape without parallel anywhere in East and Southeast Asia".' As this is an opinion you need to say whose it is
  • Done Rewritten prose: "Recognised for the British-era cityscape, the city centre is notable for its "unique architectural and cultural townscape without parallel anywhere in East and Southeast Asia", according to UNESCO". The quotation came from the UNESCO citation on George Town's listing. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done to the end of Economy. - SchroCat (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Final blast:

Parks
  • "a new iconic waterfront destination for Penang": as it contains an opinion, you need to say whose it is
  • Done Prose rewritten as such: "Touted as "a new iconic waterfront destination for Penang" by then Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng, Gurney Bay is a 24.28 ha (0.2428 km2) park being built on reclaimed land off Gurney Drive" hundenvonPG (talk) 13:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arts
  • "tabla": not a common word (at least in the West), so best to wikilink
Arts
  • Zacharevic caption: italicise The Guardian
Cuisine
  • The paragraph beginning " Popularly regarded as..." has several publications in it that need italicising (ditto for Michelin Guide the following para
Sports
  • "SPICE Arena at Bayan Baru is also a major venue": As it's in a caption (out of context with the rest), you don't need the "also")

That's the lot from me. - SchroCat (talk) 11:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks alot SchroCat for taking the time and all. Pretty sure the points have been addressed, so hopefully this should be good to go for FA. hundenvonPG (talk) 13:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Good luck with the rest of the review. City FAs are always slow to pick up reviewers (like this one, they are long and take time to do), but they are one of the more important type of article that is under-represented here, so kudos for you for taking this on. If this nomination times out, please bring it back again in the future and ping me when you do. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. Much appreciated the feedback you've put in. Will keep you posted too. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

Hey there @Dudley Miles: Great to see your feedback. Will be making needed amendments as we go through the article. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As other reviewers have pointed out, the lead should be an unreferenced summary ot the main text. Cites are only needed for quotations, and as you have none, I would delete all citations.
  • Done This has been a source of some confusion lately, but glad that this feedback clears it up somewhat. I've removed citations, except for the last lead para as per the fourth point below. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that you need a cite for the first sentence of the fourth paragraph as it includes a quote, not for the second sentence. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and has been ranked a "Gamma −" level global city". Does this tell us anything? Presumably almost all large cities are global to some degree and the global city article does not give the requirements for gamma status. I would delete here and in the main text.
  • Done Prose about the global city ranking removed from the lead. But would it be more feasible for it to be in the economics section instead (as in the Manchester article)? For additional context, George Town is the only other Malaysian city ranked Gamma and above in the 2020 GAWC rankings apart from Kuala Lumpur (ranked Alpha). hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you put it in the economics section, I think you need to give the crieria for gamma rank as I cannot see this explained anywhere on Wikipedia. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done I've rewritten the prose on its GAWC rating in the economics section and added citations from GAWC on their ranking criteria (largely based on each city's integration with the world economy in "advanced producer services" – accounting, advertising, banking and law). hundenvonPG (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Swettenham Pier has emerged as the busiest cruise terminal" "has emerged as" is verbiage. I suggest just "is".
  • "The city is renowned for its unique architectural styles that are shaped by centuries of intermingling between various cultures and religions. It has also gained a reputation as Malaysia's gastronomical capital for its distinct culinary scene." These are expressions of opinion not statements of fact. You should name the source inline - the UNESCO citation?
  • Done An exception to the first point. I've placed citations from UNESCO, CNN, Time and The Independent for this para. The part about the unique architectural townscape is actually from UNESCO, while the culinary reputation was cited from the news sources. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have "Kedah's ruler Sultan Muhammad Jiwa Zainal Adilin II" followed by "Sultan Abdullah Mukarram Shah of Kedah". It would be better to show Abdullah as the successor of Muhammed. Maybe "Muhammad Jiwa Zainal Adilin II, Sultan of Kedah" and then "Muhammed's successor, Abdullah Mukarram Shah".
  • Done I'm slightly unfamiliar with naming conventions of the Malay royalty, but I hope adding the prose "Muhammad Jiwa's successor" should suffice. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was only in 1786 when Light was finally authorised to negotiate the British acquisition of Penang Island." This is ungrammatical. Maybe "Light was finally authorised to negotiate the British acquisition of Penang Island in 1786."
  • "a centre of spice production". Was spice produced on a large scale actually in George Town?
From available citations, spices were harvested at various locations throughout the island, including what appears to be the early settlement.
  • An excerpt from the Penang Monthly cite: "Shortly before this last period a government spice garden was established, embracing 130 acres of land lying on the slopes which skirt the base of the hill near Amie’s Mills, a romantic spot well watered by the running stream now called Ayer Putih"
  • This from the "Streets of George Town" cite (page 37): "Not far from Light's own Suffolk estate was the East India Company's 130-acre spice plantations in the valley itself. In 1822, the first Government Botanic Gardens were started in the vicinity. It supplied seed for the Company's plantations and vegetables for the officers' tables until 1834."
  • Here's another from Zhao's citation (Universiti Putra Malaysia, page 67): "In the meanwhile, Light expected to sell the local agricultural products to China, Penang was soon dotted with small estates, using Chinese labor (Lynn, H.L., 2017: p. 22), 1,000 hectares of land was developed for growing crops, which would produce 340,000 kilograms of rice per year and a variety of fruits, coconuts, peppers, sugar cane and betel nut for the world market. At this time, the townscape of George Town was farming landscape plus natural landscape" hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So would it be better to say in Penang rather than George Town? Dudley Miles (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • True too. Or an alternative paraphrasing could be along the lines of: George Town as a spice trading port, as was its role in those early years when the settlement depended on spice trade.
Done Rewritten prose: "George Town grew rapidly as a free port and a conduit for spice trade" hundenvonPG (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "relocated to Singapore, as it outperformed George Town". How did it outperform George Town? This needs clarifying.
  • Done Rewritten sentence to "relocated to Singapore, as it surpassed George Town in commercial and strategic prominence", as per the Jaime Koh (Singapore National Library Board) cite. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following the opening of the Suez Canal". I would add "in 1869".
  • "quadrupled its population within four decades". Which four?
  • Done Rewritten sentence: "Between 1797 and 1830, an influx of immigrants from all over Asia quadrupled its population", based on the numbers in Keat Gin's cite. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "comprising Chinese, Malay, Indian, Peranakan, Eurasian, Siamese". Eurasian covers all the others. Do you mean European?
  • Not European, in the context of Malaysia and Singapore. Eurasian (or Serani in Malay) refers to a person of mixed European and Asian descent (here is one such article about the Eurasians in Penang). The Kristang appears to be the closest equivalent to the term Serani in WP, but the article is angled more towards the Eurasians in Malacca (with significant Portuguese influence in contrast to British-held Penang). hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This not the usual definition of Eurasian. You need to clarify that you mean mixed race. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Agreed, for better clarity. Rewritten prose: "Chinese, Malay, Indian, Peranakan, Siamese and migrants of mixed European-Asian lineage referred to as "Eurasians"". hundenvonPG (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The settlement was a centre for reformist press" This does not sound right. "reformist newspapers" or "a reformist press"
  • Done Rewritten sentence: "The settlement was a centre for reformist newspapers" hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "influx of Chinese migrants continued to pose security concerns" "continued" implies that you have previously discussed security concerns. I would just write "migrants posed security concerns".
  • "Sun, in particular, chose George Town". "in particular" is meaningless verbiage. I would delete.
  • "Historians have since contended that "the moral collapse of British rule in Southeast Asia came not at Singapore, but at Penang". This should have the author named inline.
  • Done Added citation, qoute in the sentence is attributed to historian Raymond Callahan. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Meanwhile, municipal elections were reintroduced in 1951". "reintroduced" implies previous elections, but you have not mentioned any.
  • Done Rewritten sentence: "municipal elections, which had been abolished in 1913, were reintroduced in 1951". Added citation about the development of municipal government. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The period of relative prosperity vis-à-vis the rest of Malaysia came to an end in 1969, when the Malaysian federal government eventually rescinded George Town's free port status." As you have given the date, you should not also say "eventually"
  • "newly-elected Chief Minister Lim Chong Eu". You should add "of Penang".
  • Done Added "of Penang" in the preceding para that mentioned Wong Pow Nee. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The city faced additional challenges like incoherent urban planning, poor traffic management and brain drain, lacking the expertise to regulate urban development and arrest its decline." This is clumsy. Maybe "The city also suffered from incoherent urban planning, poor traffic management and a brain drain which left it without the expertise to regulate urban development and arrest its decline."
  • Done Noted, rephrased as per recommendation. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Efforts to preserve the city's heritage paid off when in 2008, a portion of George Town was inscribed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. I would delete. It is covered below and the nomination must have long predated the opposition victory, which you are discussing here.
  • Done Indeed the nomination predated the opposition victory (as per Li's citation). Still the UNESCO designation is something of a monumental milestone in the context of the city. Would it suffice to move this sentence to the preceding para on civil societies' role in heritage conservation? It's been rewritten to: "Subsequent heritage conservation efforts led to George Town's inscription as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2008". hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "boosted by an influx of foreign investors and the private sector". This is unclear. Do you mean a growth in the private sector?
  • Done Yes there is a growth in the private sector as well. Rephrased to "boosted by a growth in the private sector". hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While George Town had been declared a city in 1957, the city's jurisdiction was expanded". This is ambiguous. Do you mean that the city boundaries were changed or just that the local government covered a larger area. Also, you do not need the word "While".
  • Done Trimmed the sentence to "George Town's jurisdiction was expanded". Addressing the jurisdicion in the next point. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A simmilar comment applies to the first two sentences of 'Geography'. The distinction between the city and its jurisdiction needs clarifying.
  • There was an expansion of the city proper in 2015. In 1957 when George Town was granted city status, the city proper was about 19sqkm at the northeastern tip of the island. There is this 1961 map of George Town that shows the city limits at the time (which I had replicated in this map of the city centre). The city council was merged with the rest of the island in 1974, creating its successor the Penang Island Municipal Council (with its administrative centre within the downtown area and functions de facto unchanged). At that point the island was around 297sqkm. In 2015, the federal government granted this municipality city status, which extended the city proper to 306sqkm (as per The Edge's citation), and necessitated the city council's expansion in functions and manpower as well. Hope this clarifies. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the latter committee made history as the first political election ever held in the settlement". This is ungrammatical and unclear. A committee is not an election. Do you mean that it was elected by a section of the residents?
  • Done Upon closer inspection of Koay Su Lin's citation, indeed that was the case: "leading inhabitants elected a Committee from among themselves". Rephrased to: "The latter committee was assembled through an election of ratepaying representatives, making it the first political election ever held in the settlement." hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1856, the Legislative Council of India passed Act No. XXVII". This needs clarification. You have a box which says that George Town was affiliated to the East India Company, but did it own or control Penang or the whole of Malaya? Was the Leg Council a body of the EIC?
  • Done Thanks for pointing out the oversight. The EIC governed Penang (and the Straits Settlements) up until 1858, when (according to Jaime Koh's citation), the Straits Settlements were transferred to the India Office. Thus between 1858 and 1867, Penang would've been under the administration of the British Raj. It also follows that India Board (in 1856) would've been a body of the EIC. Retified the box in the history section to include the period of British Raj control. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, following the Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation," When?
  • Done From Koay Su Lin's citation, since 1965. Added in the sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The local government section is unclear. Are all councillors and officials appointed by the central government? What is the distinction between the Penang Island City Council and the Penang state government? Do they cover different areas or just have different powers?
  • To clarify, there are three tiers of governance in Malaysia (here is one source from the Commonwealth Local Government Forum) – federal (or central government), state and lastly, local governments. Local governments are under the purview of the respective state governments (in this case, Penang). The mayor and all 24 councillors are appointed by the state government. Local governments, being the lowest tier of governance in Malaysia, typically carry municipal/city governance functions, whereas state governments have broader powers (eg. land, forestry, state-level laws, local governments, etc). hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Padang Kota is the least populated state constituency by absolute population". What does absolute mean here?
  • Done It means total population in this case. Removing "absolute" for clarity. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Judiciary sub-section. This is all historical and belongs in the history section.
  • Done Shifted the historical paras to the history section. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During British rule, the Chinese in George Town were categorised based on their dialects, such as the Hokkiens, Cantonese, Hainanese and Teochews". This is doubtfful on two counts. First you refer to dialects, but they are separate languages, second you link to peoples, not dialects. Were there no speakers of Mandarin, which has the most native speakers of any language? I see that you list mandarin as a language later.
  • Done Thanks for pointing out the links for said dialects. Links have been changed. But to clarify:
  • Hokkien, Cantonese, Hainanese and Teochew are largely seen as coming under the umbrella of the wider Chinese language, thus they are grouped as "dialects".
  • Regarding Mandarin, the sentence was actually based on the 1891 Straits Settlements Census cite from Merewether. In it, the Chinese were categorised into "Cantonese", "Hokkiens", "Hylams", "Kehs", "Straits-born", "Teochews" and "tribe not stated"; there was no mention of "Mandarin". hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "natural destinations". What does this mean?
  • This was a paraphrase from Saieed (Sraits Times)'s cite, which mentions that the city "lures foreign expatriates with beautiful beaches and seafront properties". hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It has also gained acclaim by news outlets such as CNN as one of the best cities for retirement." "also gained acclaim by" is POV. Maybe "has been described by".
  • Done Rephrased to "It has also been described by". hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Noted on the technical tone. Rephrased to "diversified service sector" instead.
  • ""Gamma −" level". As I said above, this means nothing to the reader without explanation.
  • Done Rewritten & added new citation on the "advanced producer services" in Southeast Asian cities (Zeyun, Li), which showed the city's connectivity in banking & insurance. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "northern banks of the Pinang River". Why banks plural?
  • "Throughout history, it has attracted influential personalities like Somerset Maugham, Rudyard Kipling, Noël Coward, Lee Kuan Yew and Queen Elizabeth II." Throughout history is gross exaggeration.
  • "The city is renowned for its rich heritage and architecture, a cosmopolitan society, natural attractions such as beaches and hills, and its culinary scene.". This is unencyclopedic sales talk.
  • Done Rewritten as such: "The city is recognised for its architecture and diverse cultures, natural attractions like beaches and hills, and its culinary scene". Hope this should suffice? hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As the primary shopping destination of northwestern Malaysia, George Town has a vibrant retail scene". More puffery. The services section reads more like a sales brochure than an encyclopedia.
  • Done Rewritten as such: "As the main shopping destination of northwestern Malaysia, George Town's retail scene includes shopping malls". Similarly hope this should be suffice. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "growing need for strata housing". What is strata housing?
  • "Gazetted in 2003, this forest reserve has been earmarked as a key eco-tourism destination within the city." What does gazetted mean here and who earmarked?
  • Done Added citation (Kaffashi, Sara) & rewritten as such: "Gazetted by the Department of Wildlife and National Parks in 2003, this forest reserve has been earmarked by the Penang state government as a key eco-tourism destination" hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • More to follow. Done to the end of cityscape. A general comment is that there is much that is good about this article, but I am not sure that it is FA standard, especially because of the frequent unencyclopedic sales language. Also, I think that you have too much technical language and too many abbreviations for non-expert readers.. Spelling out each time would be much easier for readers than having to keep track of abbreviations. Eg Multinational not MNC and foreign investment not FDI. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Noted on the feedback on the tone. My take is that revisions are not final in any case & there is always room for improvement. I greatly appreciate your feedback thus far on the specific prose that needs to be worked on. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "one of the world's most iconic street art". This is ungrammatical.
  • Done Rewritten as such: "This mural was featured in The Guardian's compilation of graffiti destinations worldwide in 2013." hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Penang variant of the Chingay procession has a deep-rooted history that dates back to 1919 when it was first introduced in George Town. This variant is characterised". This is wordy. Maybe "The Penang variant of the Chingay procession was introduced in George Town. It is characterised".
  • "Although formerly infused with elements from the Chinese underworld, Chingay parades are now held annually in the city as a tourist attraction". Why "although"? There is no contradiction between the two statements. Also, what elements?
  • Done Rewritten as such: "Formerly infused with rituals from the Chinese underworld", as per Daniel Goh's citation that mentioned " ritual symbolisms and martial arts" by Chinese secret societies. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Since its inception in 2010, the yearly George Town Festival has been touted as one of the major arts events in Southeast Asia." I would delete "touted as" as unencyclopedic.
  • "further contributing to its vibrant art scene". More sales talk.
  • Done Shortened to: "art exhibitions are held at event spaces like the Hin Bus Depot and Sia Boey". hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Popularly regarded as "the food capital of Malaysia" Ditto.
  • Done Shortened to: "Described as "the food capital of Malaysia"". hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The city has received acclaim by". Ditto.
  • "In 2015, George Town became the first Malaysian city to provide public automated external defibrillators (AEDs), with the installation of the first device at Komtar.[262] As of 2023, 48 AEDs have been installed by the Penang Island City Council at various locations throughout the city.[263] Public-private partnerships are in place with the aim of improving public access to AEDs and increasing the survival rates of cardiac arrest cases." I think this is too minor for the article.
  • "George Town was once the centre of Malaysia's print media." "was once" implies a later decline, which you should cover.
  • Done Expounded slightly, providing additional context & added another citation on Kuala Lumpur (KL)'s importance to media companies. While there indeed has been an implication of "decline", the underlying factors behind said decline are not adequately covered. Perhaps it's just a case of dailies being commercial enterprises gravitating towards national administrative centres, somewhat analogous to much of the British press being centred in London. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "daily traffic reaching as high as 64,144". 64,144 what?
  • As you several times give figures in Malaysian currency, it would be helpful to have a conversion in the notes - say to dollars as of February 2024. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much Dudley for the detailed feedback on prose. I reckon the points have been addressed too. Very much appreciated the time taken. hundenvonPG (talk) 01:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dudley, nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments.
  • Refs 70 and 240 have error messages. (If you do not see error messages then you need to install the relevant script, but I cannot remember which one.)
  • Did you mean
  • Chet Singh, Rajah Rasiah, Yee Tuan Wong (2019). From Free Port to Modern Economy: Economic Development and Social Change in Penang, 1969 to 1990. George Town: Penang Institute. ISBN 9789814843966.
  • "Venues of the Games". Official Website. Archived from the original on 20 December 2001?
I looked for errors using the visual editor layout & there wasn't any. Is there another way to spot such errors? I don't seem to have the reftool. hundenvonPG (talk) 00:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Described as "the food capital of Malaysia". Described by who? Dudley Miles (talk) 15:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Described in the CNN cite. Added into the sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 00:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have fixed the errors with your edit. For tools to display the errors see w:Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors.
Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much Dudley! Much appreciated your kind effort too. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review[edit]

Some images are forming sandwichs, with the text being encased between the files. Image placement seems reasonable. Regarding File:Flag of Penang Island City Council.svg, I trust the logo hasn't changed since 1856? Is File:Penang from Penang Road on rainy day-1 (15955759379, closeup).jpg from Penang or from Singapore, as the Flickr account seems to imply? File:Penang - Little Children on a Bicycle.JPG needs a FoP-Malaysia tag. I see no ALT text.

Spot-check upon request and reviewing this version. Given how broad the topic is, I'll have to AGF that we've covered all essential aspects. What makes #75, #96, #97, #154, #155, #159, #159, #198 a reliable source? It seems like you are often using italicized parameters for publishers, which isn't correct (e.g 84).#164 and #218 I think has a reputation for unreliability, going by MDPI? Regarding #177, I think instead of using company websites you probably should look for a general source that discusses companies with seats in Penang. Given the sheer amount of sources, I am not sure that I caught everything. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Jo-Jo Eumerus. Thanks for your feedback on the sources. Let me address by points.
Images
  • Sandwiched images: Done I have removed another photo down in the transport section and shifted a few others. Hopefully these should reduce the sandwiching effect. But particularly for those in the history section where it encases the text with the infobox, I'm uncertain how to further reduce the sandwiching. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • City logo: The present-day emblem is in fact in use since 1974. The original city government logo was File:Coat of Arms of the City of George Town Penang.png, before the merger of George Town with the rest of the island that year.
On another note, I've replaced the city flag, as per the latest photo I had taken (File:Flags at the City Hall in George Town, Penang.jpg) and this source that depict a yellowish background with a disc surrounding the emblem. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The thing I am wondering is the copyright of the logo. If it changed since 1856, there might be a new, non-lapsed copyright. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the Commons file itself, it appears to be available for public use.
And if there are restrictions for use of Malaysian emblems, most (if not all) on Commons would also be subject to the same copyright issues (the latest iteration of the Malaysian coat of arms was only made official in 1988); the coat of arms being in use throughout the country's governmental institutions which are in WP as well, ie File:Flag of the Supreme Head of Malaysia.svg and File:Flag of Putrajaya.svg). hundenvonPG (talk) 13:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Going by that, it seems like government logos published before 1973 are fine. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources
  • 75: Done Thanks for pointing out this non-official source. It's removed. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 96: Buletin Mutiara (Facebook page here) is the official publication of the Government of Penang and being a local news provider, they tend to have more in-depth coverage of developments within Penang than national news platforms like The Star or Malaysiakini. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 97: Done It's removed and sentence rewritten to avoid mention of extremity. Penang National Park being the smallest in the world was mentioned in this article from The Star in 2006, but doubtful if this reputation remains now. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 154: Kajian Malaysia (Journal of Malaysian Studies) is published by Universiti Sains Malaysia, one of the major public universities in the country (more info available at this government website). hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 155: Penang Monthly (more info here) is a publication of the Penang Institute, a think tank funded by the Penang government. There is a consistent focus from this magazine on the state's policy-making and initiatives, as well as socioeconomic data not otherwise highlighted by the Department of Statistics Malaysia. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 159: Done Sufficient doubt raised on the actual publisher. Replaced with an existing book cite. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 198: Done The Malaysian Insight (Facebook page here) is an online news portal, similar to Malaysiakini and Free Malaysia Today. From personal observation though, it is not as prominent (and not as active too). Replaced with a more credible news source. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 177 : Done Removed hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • MDPI sources: Done Thanks again for pointing out about MDPI's reliability. Both #164 and #218 removed. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Italicised font for publishers: The references display publishers in italics by default. Are there other ways to have them display as normal text? hundenvonPG (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi hundenvonPG, have you finished addressing Jo-Jo's comments? If so, could you ping them. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Gog the Mild, I believe I did around last Monday (as per above), asking if there's anything more that need to be addressed. Jo-Jo Eumerus, just making sure if there is anymore that needs tweaking? hundenvonPG (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments[edit]

Thanks for the feedback Gog the Mild hundenvonPG (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It has the highest potential of any city in Malaysia for revenue growth". Could it be made clear that this is one organisation' opinion. rather than being presented in Wikipedia's voice as a fact.
  • Done Sentence amended to include mentions of Euromonitor International and the Economist Intelligence Unit. hundenvonPG (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "second only to Kuala Lumpur." Suggest 'second only to the national capital, Kuala Lumpur.'
  • References: publisher locations are inconsistently provided. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Removed publisher locations for uniformity; not all locations have been determined. hundenvonPG (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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