Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/23 Wall Street/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 3 January 2023 [1].

23 Wall Street[edit]

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 15:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a building in Manhattan, New York City, which served as the headquarters of J.P. Morgan & Co. from 1914 to 1988. Though only four stories tall, the "House of Morgan" has been described in The New York Times as one of "the big little buildings of Wall Street". 23 Wall Street's marble and masonry facade still bears scars from the 1920 Wall Street bombing, just one of several indications of the building's long history. In recent years, 23 Wall Street has sat largely empty, despite several plans for its redevelopment. Nonetheless, its architecture is widely admired, to the extent that it was one of the first buildings to be designated as official New York City landmarks in 1965.

This page was promoted as a Good Article almost two years ago after a Good Article review by JBchrch, for which I am very grateful. In addition, the page received a GOCE copyedit last year from Twofingered Typist, who is unfortunately no longer with us, but whose efforts I also appreciate. I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. This is the second FAC for this article; the previous nomination failed because it didn't receive enough reviews. Hopefully, that won't be the case this time around. Epicgenius (talk) 15:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from ErnestKrause[edit]

Place holder for upcoming comments. That holiday season image in panoramic format at the start of the article looks like it might catch the eye of many readers. If others look at that panoramic image at the start of this article then holiday season wishes to them. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One short comment to start things moving forward is in the '21st Century' section when you state: '...because Sonangol would not guarantee Pa would receive none of the money'. The wording 'not guarantee...none of the money' might look better as 'not guarantee...any of the money'? More later. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Technically this is correct, but I've reworded this. After Sam Pa was arrested, Jack Terzi wanted to buy the building but didn't want Pa to see any of the money. Epicgenius (talk) 14:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lead section[edit]

Should mention why and when the main office was moved, when the new building and location were established.

Actually, the company had occupied the Drexel Building on the same site. J. P. Morgan & Co. just wanted to develop a new structure to replace the old one (it didn't merge with Chase Bank until much later, if that is what you're concerned about). Epicgenius (talk) 14:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking of the move in 1985 to 60 Wall Street being added to the lead section; when 23 Wall Street is no longer the main location for Morgan. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:39, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Architecture and facade[edit]

Is that 34 feet for the building facade of the entrance, or the actual measurement of the curb space occupied by the corner?

It is for the building facade. I've clarified this now. Epicgenius (talk) 14:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Features and upper story[edit]

The upper stories were occupied by the bank officers including Morgan, but how much time did Morgan spend there, and where was Morgan spending most of his office time? Its stated that he spent a great time of time at the Art Museum in NYC in the last decade of his life; where did he spend most of his 'office' time in the last decade of his life?

Good question. I have to look into this (and also the meetings that you mention below). Epicgenius (talk) 14:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know if this information turns up. The Chernow biography on Morgan might be useful on these points. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
History[edit]

History and anecdote are likely mixed in the story of how Morgan and other financiers saved the USA from default and bankruptcy at some point during desperate economic transitions. Did any of there meeting take place at this location? Is there anything resembling a list of the most important 'historical' meetings which took place at this address, or in Morgan's office?

Impact[edit]

The Paul Strand image is very well known; its worth making it appear in larger than regular format if all the copyrights are ok for using this image.

The larger image looks good here. Its a stand out image. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when you are ready for more notes for the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:00, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those were nice edits over night and I've added some optional references to look at further above. Moving my comments to now Support this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Wehwalt[edit]

Support per my detailed comments at the last FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TAOT[edit]

I will get to this at some point in the next week. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is a pet peeve of mine. Can you make the footnotes in numerical order when more than one is used in the same place? Seeing [23][4][7] drives me nuts and doesn't look nice.
  • There's a few CS1 errors in references throughout the article (mainly url-status).
    • I will try to fix both of these. Unfortunately, the url-status errors don't show up for me in the default view. I'm probably going to have to comb through all the refs. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      @Trainsandotherthings, just a heads up that I have fixed all of the ref-order and CS1 maintenance issues. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:54, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth linking chamfer?
    • It is already linked in the second sentence of "Architecture": "The building is shaped like an irregular heptagon, with a chamfered corner..." Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the center of the room, was a main lobby shaped like an irregular hexagon. That comma can go.
  • The superstructure is made of a steel frame, but the beams are hidden within the walls because Morgan had requested that they not be visible. Suggest changing are to "were", to match the tense in "Morgan had requested that they not be visible".
    • Done. Honestly, I was thinking "the beams are still currently hidden in the walls". However, I see what you mean - the verb "hidden" could mean that the contractors were actively hiding the beams in the walls during construction, but that the action has now been completed. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the late 19th century, the bank became one of the most influential institutions in the United States, and the elder Morgan became one of the country's most powerful financiers. Suggest rephrasing to avoid the use of "became" twice in a row.
  • There had been an unsuccessful proposal to replace the Drexel Building and the adjacent Mills Building. This begs the question, replace them with what? Do we have any information in the source?
    • The source suggests that a skyscraper would've replaced the Drexel Building, so I have clarified as such. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use inflation templates where costs are mentioned.
    • I have done this for the "Construction" section. I could do it as well for the "21st century" section, but there was much less inflation between 2003 and 2022. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Jack Morgan funded the Allies of World War I Who? There's no mention of a Jack Morgan anywhere else in the article. Is this a typo?
    • That is actually correct, as J. P. Morgan Jr. was nicknamed Jack to distinguish from his father. It must have slipped my mind that Jack wasn't mentioned by his nickname anywhere else. I have therefore fixed this. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the early 20th century section, I recommend linking Wall Street bombing. While technically a DUPLINK, that part of the MOS also states a link "may be repeated if helpful for readers".
    • That sounds reasonable, so I have done so. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have The New York Times linked on its second mention in the body, but not on its first mention.
  • You mention the company's name changing to Morgan Guaranty, but not its subsequent reversion to the previous name. This is somewhat confusing.
  • It's, for lack of a better word, a mess. When 60 Wall Street was announced in the 1980s, it appears that Morgan Guaranty was a subsidiary of holding company J. P. Morgan & Co. I'm trying to find a reliable secondary source for when that happened, but it would indicate that the company didn't technically change names, it merely became part of another company which so happened to be called J. P. Morgan & Co. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the 21st century, you first say "China International Fund" and then "China Investment Fund". Which one is correct?
  • That's all I've got. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Trainsandotherthings: Thank you for your comments. I've fixed most of these issues now and will work on resolving the ref order and the cite errors. Epicgenius (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Everything has been addressed to my satisfaction. I am happy to support on prose. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:23 Wall Street New York.jpg. The creator's name could be more clearly stated on the image page.
  • The Paul Strand photograph. How is it PD? It was exhibited, certainly, in Philadelphia, but that's not itself publication. What is the pre-1927 publication?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am confused about this. c:COM:PACUSA says "Due to these requirements, statues and art installed in a place open to the general public prior to 1978 are likely in the public domain if they do not comply with copyright formalities." The page further says that if a work of art was published prior to 1927 and placed "in a public location where people can make copies", it would be in the public domain regardless of whether it complied with formalities. As I understand it, the mere act of displaying the art publicly was enough for the photograph to become public domain, unless it wasn't displayed publicly until after 1926. Epicgenius (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was displayed at the Wanamaker Exhibition in 1917.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the clarification. I should also mention that according to COM:PACUSA, "exhibiting, displaying, or releasing the work in a public place where anyone can make unrestricted copies of the work could publish the work" should be sufficient. So unless the Wanamaker Exhibition prohibited people from copying the work, the mere act of exhibiting the photograph was enough to constitute publication. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:12, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I saw no mention of them preventing people from copying it, so I'll give this a pass.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from KJP1[edit]

To EG's usual high standard. A few comments/suggestions.

Lead
  • "Since the late 2000s, it has been in a state of disuse" - "a state of disuse" reads slightly oddly to me. "stood empty" / "vacant" / "unoccupied"?
    • I have changed this to "largely vacant". Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The building contains an astylar exterior" - can you "contain" an exterior? "has"?
    • I also changed this to "has a facade of ashlar masonry..." Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ground story is rendered as a single high piano nobile over a low basement" - "rendered" threw me here; in the architectural context, I thought of Cement render. Perhaps, "comprises" / "consists of"? And should piano nobile be italicised? It is in our main article. This occurs again in the Facade section.
  • "a main cornice," - "the main cornice"?, as opposed to the subsidiary one below.
  • "contained offices and was used for banking transactions. This space contained a coffered ceiling" - two "contained"s, and there's another "contains" earlier. Perhaps, "housed offices and was used for banking transactions. This space had/has a coffered ceiling"?
  • "J.P. Morgan & Co. predecessor Drexel, Morgan & Co." - Is "J.P. Morgan and Co." missing an apostrophe?
    • The name of the company was "J.P. Morgan & Co.". Unless you're referring to the phrase "J.P. Morgan & Co.'s predecessor", in which case I have fixed that. Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what I meant, thanks. KJP1 (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "J.P. Morgan & Co. refused to repair the damage in defiance to the bombing's perpetrators" - this might be a Br/Am thing, in which case ignore, but we would use "in defiance of" rather than "to". This reoccurs in the second para. of "Early 20th century".
    • Fixed. I think you're right; sometimes I get my conjunctions mixed up. Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Site
  • "contained a mansard roof and marble walls" - as with its exterior (above), does a building contain its roof and walls? Would "had" be simpler? And were the marble walls exterior walls, or marble-cladding to interior walls? If the former, perhaps "that building was constructed of marble with a mansard roof"?
Architecture
  • "23 Wall Street was built with only four above-ground stories" - is there anything on why it was built only four storeys high. That real estate must have been super expensive even then, and Morgan repeatedly found they didn't have enough space. Was it a prestige thing, or did J.P. Jr want the piazza effect, with a building on the scale of the Treasury and the Federal Hall (see Public Square comment immediately below)? Perhaps the sources don't say, but it is odd, particularly given that the Substructure and basement section says they laid foundations sufficient for 30 storys!
    • I couldn't find a source saying this directly, but the building was intended for the exclusive use of J.P. Morgan & Co.. At the time, banks in NYC were either designed as standalone structures or as skyscrapers. Having a skyscraper meant that J.P. Morgan would have needed to rent out the remaining space, which actually would have made sense given the high land value. However, the site was also pretty small, which meant that a significant amount of space in a skyscraper would be taken up by elevators and stairs, rather than rentable office space. The fact that the company needed to expand into 15 Broad Street, later on, probably indicated how short-sighted their initial decision was. Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "contained up to five intermediate mezzanine levels" - aren't mezzanine floors intermediate by definition? I think "intermediate" could go.
  • "When the building had been designed, Morgan had stipulated" - "was being"?
Facade
  • Facade - I'm sure this is Br/AM, I'm assuming you don't use the fancy French squiggle, Façade.
  • "Morgan's request that the marble be identical to that used in his 36th Street residence's library" - here, the timing of the build (1913-14) and J. P. Morgan Sr's death in 1913, got me a bit confused. I guess we are still talking Jr., as above, but the library was really Sr.'s. Although it became Jr.'s by inheritance. Does it need clarifying?
  • "The main cornice, between the second and third stories, is inspired by Italian Renaissance architecture" - Is it possible to say anything more about how it is inspired by Renaissance examples? I'm assuming that it's because it's about the only decoration/embellishment on the whole frontage. Do any of the sources (this bit's not cited) say from where Trowbridge and Livingstone drew their inspiration?
    • The source says only that "Its elements of Italian Renaissance architecture reflect the identification of J. P. Morgan with the great merchant-banker princes of the Renaissance". Unfortunately, I don't know exactly which buildings inspired the firm. Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A penthouse containing air-conditioning machinery" - "penthouse" isn't the term that springs to mind for a utilitarian structure housing the aircon. Would the link to Mechanical penthouse work better?
  • "a bronze-and-glass set of doors underneath a transom made of bronze and glass" - get that this is a usual Americanism, but I wonder if Transom window in full would help a non-US audience?
  • "Morgan had stipulated that there not be any company name signs" - re. my earlier point on the Morgan Library, this is clearly referring to Morgan Sr., as it mentions his death later in the sentence. Do we need to clearly disambiguate between whether we are on about Sr. or Jr.?
  • "Another entrance on Broad Street led to the transfer department in the building's basement" - Two things here. First, are we talking about bank transfers? If so, would the link help. Second, in trying to see what the source said, I see that Cite 29 brings up two sources, rather than the usual one. It may just be the kit I'm using, which isn't my usual stuff, but was this intended?
    • To your first point, yes, and I have added the link. As for your second point, this was indeed intentional; I did this per WP:CITEBUNDLE.
      Thanks for your comments so far KJP1. Epicgenius (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Substructure and basement
  • "foundations were built to be strong enough to support a tower of at least 30 stories" - thanks for the clarification given above re. the building's height. I shall leave off speculating as to why the, very-clever, Morgans made such a decision.
  • "The interior of the vault measured either 18 by 22 feet (5.5 by 6.7 m)[4] or 23 by 27 feet (7.0 by 8.2 m)" - I got confused here - often happens - and the Source didn't clarify it. The vault varies in size? It's one of two sizes but we don't know which?!? I'm guessing it means that the stories of the three-story vault have different dimensions, i.e. they are bigger/smaller the further up/down you go. Is it possible to clarify it?
    • I clarified that the sources disagree as to the dimensions. Epicgenius (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ground story
  • "plaster replaced the glass dome, and a massive crystal chandelier was installed under the center of the dome" - to avoid repetition, perhaps "plaster replaced the glass dome, and a massive crystal chandelier was installed at its center"?
  • "the signs of the zodiac were an emblem of J. P. Morgan's club" - I am guessing this was the Knickerbocker Club, but I can't access the source, and I suspect Morgan, Sr. and Jr., belonged to quite a few. If the source allows, is it worth expanding/bluelinking? "J.P. Morgans club, the Knickerbocker"
    • It was a private club of the Morgan family. I have clarified that. Epicgenius (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ground floor's outer walls had a wainscoting" - unless this is Am, I think the "a" is a stray. We wouldn't say "a panelling".
  • "An arch on the rear wall opened into 15 Broad Street" - "on to"?
Upper stories
  • "and generally contained English oak decorations" - Is it decoration, or indeed panelling? Decorations sounds a bit like Christmas decorations.
  • "doubling as additional conference space during the winter" - Should this not be "summer"? It would be rather cold on the roof in a New York winter, even with an awning! The source says "covered with awnings providing place for conferences in warm weather" (my italics).
Early 20th century
  • "After J. P. Morgan Jr. funded the Allies of World War I" - rich and generous though he was, he didn't pay for everything! And he made rather a lot on the deals. I definitely thinks this needs a bit of unpacking. Something like, "J. P. Morgan Jr.'s strong support for the Allies during World War I; through major loans, through his positioning J. P. Morgan and Co. as the sole purchasing agent for the British Government, and through his promotion of Liberty bonds; saw him receive numerous death threats from those opposed to US involvement in the war." Possibly also worth mentioning that this went beyond mere threats - Eric Muenter shot him twice. Either a footnote, or "numerous death threats, as well as one attempted assassination, from those opposed..."
    • I have added a footnote about the nature of the junior Morgan's support for WWI, as well as another footnote about the assassination attempt. Epicgenius (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Critical reception
  • Just an observation, but apart from Stern, who could be described as an "architect and writer", has there been no recent coverage in the architectural press? I mean serious criticism, rather than the journalistic "its reserved presence reflects its reserved founder" sort of stuff? It is an interesting building, in appearance as well as history, and I'd have thought that might have been picked up somewhere. But if it hasn't, it hasn't, and I'm certain you would have found the sources if they were out there. [But see below].
    • Sadly, there hasn't been much recent architectural commentary. I found this, which is about the rooftop deck, though I haven't added this reference. I also found this, which is from the Skyscraper Museum and briefly discusses 23 Wall, although it only briefly comments on the building's architecture. Epicgenius (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Landmark designations
  • You could fillet out something from the 1965 Designation Record for the Critical reception section. There are some nice quotes which illustrate the building's importance. "handsome classical details, yet because of its broad smooth wall surfaces, great windows and unusual design, it is virtually without precedent." "a fine marble building in perfect scale with its neighbors, at the north end of Broad street which widens at this point to create the illusion of a small square." "a commanding feature at the head of a great, open street and notable as a handsome, classical building, unique in its design." Not saying this is essential for FAC, but for me they do give a good sense of the building's importance as a building. It would also lift what for me is currently a slightly low-key ending, an "unimpressive, gray five-story building". And they're a bit more up to date. Disappointingly, the Federal Register seems to say nothing other than to record its listing. Which was a pity given how long it took me to get to page 7349! As an aside, I saw somewhere a nifty trick an editor had for making the cite to a pdf go to the desired page. But unfortunately, I've forgotten it.
    • Thanks for the tip - I completely forgot about the fact that I could directly link a page in a PDF. I have added a quote from the LPC, and I've also added a direct link to the relevant page of the PDF. Epicgenius (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Epicgenius - That's me done. Thanks for a(nother) great article on a very interesting building. And for your very fast and full responses. You'll see I found much less to chew over, after I moved out of the Architecture section. Although some of the rather "dubious" owners in the 21st century caused a raised eyebrow. I'm not sure J. P. Sr. would have approved. I would be delighted to Support, once you've had a chance to review this morning's batch of comments. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 09:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@KJP1: Thank you very much for your comments. I don't think I could do much about adding contemporary criticism, as there seems to be little modern-day commentary of the building, but I have addressed all of your remaining comments. Epicgenius (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done[edit]

  • Some of the details in the lead don't appear to be cited anywhere - for example that the walls are limestone
    • Oops, I think I copied that from another article. That has been removed. I checked the remainder of the lead and fixed some minor details as well. Epicgenius (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN3: the archive link is nonfunctional
    • Removed (it's an interactive map, so archiving it would result in a nonfunctioning link in most if not all cases). Epicgenius (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in if/when you include ISSN
  • Be consistent in if/when you include publication location, and if you include it how it is formatted
  • What makes YIMBY a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:59, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by query[edit]

  • "Since the late 2000s, it has been largely vacant." Does this mean that all of it has been vacant most of the time, or that most of it has been vacant all of the time? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    All of the building has been vacant most of the time. I'll clarify this now. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:09, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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