User talk:TWAMWIR

April 2013

Hello, I'm Solarra. I noticed that you recently removed some content from Motor Vessel Murree, with this edit, without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry, I restored the removed content. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks! ♥ Solarra ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 10:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Motor Vessel Murree and MV Murree

Hello, TWAMWIR. I will try to explain what happened. You created the article Motor Vessel Murree, but someone else decided that "MV Murree" was a better title for the article, and moved it to MV Murree. When a page is moved, usually a redirect is automatically created, with the original title, so in this case a redirect was created at Motor Vessel Murree, pointing to the article at MV Murree. The idea is that someone may search for "Motor Vessel Murree", in which case it is more helpful for them to be taken automatically to the article MV Murree, rather than just finding a message telling them that there is no article called "MV Murree". Evidently, without realising what had happened, you edited Motor Vessel Murree, resulting in two duplicate articles. (If you find this confusing, I sympathise. I found many aspects of how Wikipedia works confusing when I first came here, but it does get much clearer when you have had a bit of experience here.) I have deleted the duplicate article, as you requested, but I have restored the redirect, as it may help people to find the article.

For future reference, if you have created a page and want it deleted, and there are no significant contributions to it from anyone else, you can request deletion by putting {{db-author}} at the top of the page. This means "delete because the author of the page has requested deletion", which is one of the various criteria for speedy deletion.

Please feel welcome to contact me on my talk page if you have any more questions. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks James, that is really helpful as is the explanation. I shall try to remember your identity if things happen unexpectedly again. Robert / TWAMWIR TWAMWIR (talk) 11:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

TWAMWIR, you are invited to the Teahouse

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GLAM Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums Wikimedian in Residence

I believe this article should have been created at Wikipedia:GLAM/Tyne & Wear Archives & Museums Wikimedian in Residence, no? It appears to be a project-oriented description rather than an actual encyclopedia article. Correct me if I'm wrong, or move the page if I'm correct. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Please give me some guidance to move it to a Project page (or make the move) and I would be happy. I certainly spent some time in the Project page area but as I went through the various examples of the different Wikipedians I could not quite discern which was which. Thanks TWAMWIR / RobertTWAMWIR (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I was about to G2 this one... Technically it cannot be moved, because the redirect from mainspace to a project would not be indicated, not to mention the title is implausible at best. Once this is re-created elsewhere please blank it and replace it with {{db-author}}. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 16:49, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I am well on the way to doing this. I have put in a deletion request on the article. The project is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/Tyne_%26_Wear_Archives_%26_Museums_Wikimedian_in_Residence and links are being changedTWAMWIR (talk) 16:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC).

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Photo uploads

Thank you very much for the three images you uploaded. However, you say that the archivists have cleared them based on the 70+ years since publication rule. This is actually a 70 years since the death of the author rule. Is it possible that this is what you meant, and the archives knows who took these images? I'd like to add the name to the image descriptions.

Also please note that you did not take the images, nor are you the copyright owner, as seen here. :-) Commons editors tend to get angry at mistakes like that. :-) I've fixed all of them now, assuming that it's 70 years past the death of the photographer (see the subsequent edits), but again, that needs to be confirmed. Also we will need a reason that they are in the public domain in the United States, e.g. that they were published before 1923, because Commons' servers are located in the United States. I can help you with getting the proper copyright templates in the future if you need. Regards, Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 01:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• They were published in 1908/09. They are dated as such. The publisher is known and is known to be out of business. A H Herries of Newcastle (the city where we are based). A group of three people including myself and two archivists reviewed the copyright situation. We used Copyright for Archivists and Records Managers Fourth Edition by Tim Padfield. We worked to a Padfield authored flow chart where we took the left hand column in that the author/photographer is not known, only the publisher. The question was "Is the work a photograph created before 1 June 1957?". The answer was yes and copyright expires 70 years after creation. The entire batch of images came to the archive from the original ship builder. The JPG images were made by the Archives Service and I have their authority to upload them hence the claim of authorship. It is almost 100% certain but impossible to prove that A H Herries was provided with the photographs by a photographer employed by the shipyard but no record of that has been traced. By all means post a link to a copyright template.TWAMWIR (talk) 07:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the quick reply! Do these changes look good to you? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 15:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, I am fine with this. Thanks for the help. I will show the templates to colleagues. TWAMWIR (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • There are several templates out there; I chose the ones that are closest to the scenario here, and because the US one didn't explain why the images were in the public domain, I explained further in the "permissions" field. I assume you will also be interested in commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory and commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United Kingdom. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Oh, stupid question. Are these scanned from postcards published in 1908/09? That would mean different templates and would make all of this much simpler. I think that this is what you meant with your first sentence, and I completely missed that. Last, I've added the images to Ship naming and launching, South American dreadnought race and Minas Geraes-class battleship, which get a combined 11000 views per month. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
        • • It is difficult to PROVE they were published in 1908/09. You would need postally used examples to demonstrate that. It is known they were a set the shipyard kept along with a few real photographs. The set shows the launch and commissioning of the warship. It would be difficult to have taken the pictures unless you had the yard's assistance. The newsworthyness of such postcards would have been when the ship was on the Tyne. It therefore must be overwhelmingly likely that the postcards were published in 1908/09 by this Tyneside publisher with the interest of the shipyard and the dates are on the front of the cards. If these were railway postcards there are sources of information to date such cards, however I am not aware of a compendium of information on warship postcards, fascinating that document would be. TWAMWIR (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
            • ED: if you wish to ask about other Tyneside warships (perhaps one at a time) I don't mind having a go at looking for you. Also yourself browsing http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/tyne-and-wear-archives/catalogue-amp-user-guides.html and then http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/DServe2/dserve.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl is recommended. The TWAM services holds huge collections covering Armstrong and Swan Hunter and other Tyne and Wear naval ship building yards. Immense amounts of photographs and drawings. Also ship models. For example try a search on Nelson TWAMWIR (talk) 17:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
              • I agree—but as you say, postcards would have been published at minimum five years after the creation date, so if we know they were on a postcard, we can make a strong argument (one that has held up for me in a similar case) that the photos are in the public domain. With a publication date, then, we can state that the images are in the public domain in the UK (published more than 70 years ago) and US (published prior to 1923). It would basically be the same thing as we have now, but we avoid the possible problem of finding that a similar image was published at some point after 1943, which could cause problems with the UK public domain.
              • The three I have the most interest in would be the Brazilian cruiser Bahia, HMS Agincourt (1913) (formerly known as Rio de Janeiro and Sultan Osman I), and Chilean battleship Almirante Latorre—all of which were built by Armstrong in Newcastle upon Tyne—but I can't find any of them through the online search, so there may be no records. I could ask User:Sturmvogel 66, who has done a plethora of articles on British ships, if he has anything he would need illustrations for (if you want me to). Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 19:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
                • I'd like to see more pictures of the export warships as they're often very difficult to find sourced pictures for. Those sold to Japan would be very useful in particular--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC).

According to the Armstrong Whitworth WP article, T&W Archives and Museums have the company's records. Would they happen to have the official ship line drawings, something like File:Minas Geraes-class battleship drawings.jpg, in the archives? Those would be of immense help—I've been looking for plans of Riachuelo for ages. There's a copy in David Topliss, "The Brazilian Dreadnoughts, 1904–1914," Warship International 25, no. 3 (1988): 240–89, but it's spread over two pages and therefore can't be scanned without destroying my copy of the journal. You'd be looking for a booklet of ship's plans for Design 781 from about 1914. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 03:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• My hope is that the answer is yes. I will keep plugging at the catalogue. It requires a measure of obstinacy. Little purple numbers are actually links so http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/DServe2/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=NaviTree.tcl&dsqField=RefNo&dsqItem=DF.CLR/7#HERE becomes quite interesting.TWAMWIR (talk) 08:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, I've noticed that the catalog is a bit touchy. ;-) Perhaps this is the right collection? Agincourt and Almirante Latorre/Canada should be in this collection, and if the Archives happen to have decent images of the ships as completed, they'll immediately be the lead images—our current images are unfortunately terrible. Not sure what would be in [1] or [2]. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 08:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • Please see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ListFiles/TWAMWIR for new TIFF uploads from the Minas Geraes set in the archives here in Newcastle. TWAMWIR (talk) 09:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

HMS Agincourt (1913) (formerly known as Rio de Janeiro and Sultan Osman I),

I am going to give this a new heading. This looks interesting http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/DServe2/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=0&dsqSearch=((text)='HMS Agincourt') . It will also be worth studying this user guide. TWAMWIR (talk) 08:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I had seen that, but discounted it as only letters. That user guide is extremely helpful. We would be looking for the ship plans and ship photographs from Armstrong Whitworth, listed on the first page. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 08:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

The reference talks about six papers. I have forms filled out to see some of this material but it will be next week now. I am told that the Armstrong drawings, volumes of them, are not listed and are the subject of a funding application. There would be a lot of work. But the score of Brazilean Dreadnoughts against some of the museum service pages (user stats) has been noted by senior managers with the thought there are lessons to be learnt. So I promise nothing but will be trying. TWAMWIR (talk) 11:14, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey, that's all I can ask for—it's not like there was any chance before! Thank you for trying. The archives management may also find the Japanese Kongo-class battlecruisers an interesting thing to look at, given their (higher) viewing statistics!

Also, I could probably get at least one of the images (certainly this image) to featured status if they rescanned them in a high-quality, .tiff format, and then I could get an image editor to fix any imperfections in the scan or image itself. You can see the feature picture requirements here.

The WP article on image restoration is terrible, but basically we would need it to be scanned from an image negative (old paper and newsprint leave something similar to watermarks that are impossible to remove) at the highest possible quality settings in the tiff format. For an example, as you can see at the Library of Congress, they have several options. The jpg is for common use, while the tiffs do not lose their quality when downloaded. In the example, then, the 154mb tiff would be the most suitable for image restoration. However, that's a pipe dream, and if you can't or don't want to do it, it's no worries. I'm just putting ideas in your head. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 21:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

An Agincourt image, this information is not on the public facing version of the catalogue but if you use DS.VA/3/G8113HH Yard no. 792E, Agincourt. Showing the battleship 'Agincourt' ex 'Sultan Osman' I ex 'Rio de Janeiro' This photograph is deposited at Newcastle Local Studies Library. For further information, or to order a copy, contact the Local Studies library (email: information@newcastle.gov.uk) should get a result. This is not an image the archives have but it is in the city. The same logic works with this DS.VA/3/G8104HH Yard no. 809E, Bahia. Showing the Brazilian cruiser 'Bahia'. TWAMWIR (talk) 12:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

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Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 10:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

SD18

I have just translated SD18 (ship type) from the German. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

You are making a great day! A lot has happened today including uploading to Commons the SD14 information sheet the museum published. [3] and neighbours.TWAMWIR (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Categories

I noticed that you added Thames skiff to Category:Traditional Boat, but it should be Category:Traditional boats. Similarly you added Classic Boat to another non-existant category, Category:Traditional Boats. I've corrected them both. - David Biddulph (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Thanks for correcting that, you certainly read what my mind intended. TWAMWIR (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Love history & culture? Get involved in WikiProject World Digital Library!

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Kashima images

I checked the catalog and found two entries of interest. DX1305/1/1 a photograph album and DS.VA/3/1993.9570 which appears to be a single photo. Is it possible to get these scanned and uploaded to Commons? I'm planning on working on an article on the Japanese battleship Kashima which was built by Armstrongs.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I shall try my best to investigate but I shall not next be in until the week starting 3rd June. TWAMWIR (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

That's fine; I'm in no hurry.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Today I have before me Tyne & Wear Archives 450/1/1 in front of me. It is a leatherbound book headed Admiral Duarte Huet De Bacellar. Inside are what appear to be Armstrong's COLOUR launch brochures. It starts with March 22nd 1898 HIJMS ASAMA and ends with HATSUSE June 27th 1899. So the items are not bound in order but there seems to be about 40 ships covered. These include KOSHIMA and MINAS GERAES. Some other names, you can expect a colour illustration, WHO launched the ship and core details. HAMPSHIRE, AFRIDI, SUPERB, ROSARIO, IWATE, LANCASTER. I am sure this material would help a lot of people. I will be trying to see what we can get scanned.TWAMWIR (talk) 10:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Color photos, those would be excellent! We also don't generally have info on who launched the ship, especially for the little boys, so that would be useful as well. Look forward to seeing what you can get done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

At end of today I had 15 of these images scanned with permission to upload. I uploaded one, it is here. I would mighty appreciate if someone could help me rename to get a capital H. These are not colour photos, they are either coloured photos or artwork. Some come with the signature Charles De Lacy. They are certainly delightful. I was trying to upload the first of three Minas Geraes pieces and the whole system hung. So the uploading will have to continue next week. I am back home now. In the office we are wondering whether a Skype based editathon with the original document to camera and the uploads as possible done would be appreciated? If you think so say. For instance the chance to consider De Lacy and to reflect on Admiral Duarte Huet De Bacellar could be good. For him I saw what looked like a gravestone entry in our area? Could that be right. I am trying to refind this but am on a different machine.TWAMWIR (talk) 17:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It's all good. The brochures add some extra information and we can always crop a version with just the artwork for infoboxes, etc.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Some more items added today to Wiki Commons like [4] and neighbours.TWAMWIR (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

A piece of HIJMS Kashima's launch ephemera is now on Wiki Commons. The two other pieces with it carry signed artwork B Woodrow and as of now I am unclear of his copyright status unlike De Lacy who is clearly in public domain. The link is this.TWAMWIR (talk) 10:15, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added it to the appropriate category.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

A table explaining the Warship images that Tyne & Wear Archives 450/1 provides is here. TWAMWIR (talk) 11:41, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

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Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 01:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Replied again! Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 07:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

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