User talk:Stephen2nd/archive 3
[ATTRIBUTED ARMS: TALK]
A.C. Fox-Davis: Art of Heraldry references.
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Stephen2nd (talk) 22:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
You emphasize; the rise of heraldry; pre-dating heraldry; pre-heraldic Kings, as such; pre- C12th attributed arms are imaginary. The correct term for this usage is; “heralds.”
Heraldry is everything within the duties of the rise of heralds from circa C12th; Armory is a science of arms; rules and laws governing use, display, meaning, and knowledge of pictured signs and emblems appertaining to shield, helmet or banner, from circa 4000BC. The pre-C12th science of Armory is not imaginary it is the "Shorthand of History".(AC F-D)
Arms were attributed to many kings pre-dating; “C12th Heralds” including Edward the Confessor. The Anglo-Saxon pennies from the earliest period of issue till the reign of Edward the Confessor have nearly all a cross on them. In the times of Richard II, heralds assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor in reference to the reverse of King Edward’s coins known as the “Sovereign.” It is so called by reason of the King represented on the obverse side seated on his throne, with Sceptre in his right hand and Orb surmounted by a cross in the left. The reverse of King Edward’s coin had the angled cross with four birds.
A five bird’s achievement of arms assigned to Richard II may be in devotion to the Saint. Historically, it seems more relevant this attribution pertained to regnal descriptions of the later Edward’s I and II &c., being a cause of the “Saint” (canonized 1161) and later; “the confessor” descriptions. The College of Arms (R. 22, 67) and (in Latin) the Abby booke of newborough, state Richard II also assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor with two Ostrich feathers and the Royal Crest to Thomas de Mowbray. The comparison between the arms of King Edward (b1004/5: r1024-1066); Thomas de Mowbray (*figs 692, 699, 823, 824) and Arms of England (1195-1340); shows the scientific and historical armorial link between the pre-1066 Anglo-Saxon Kings and post-1066 Norman Kings &c.Stephen2nd (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
What would you suggest to address these concerns? Gimmetrow 04:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
To address these concerns, it is relevant to note that many books are written by those not having complete knowledge of their subject, or for ulterior motives. Some statement may appear in a text book, copied into book after book, and accepted as correct, when it is not. In addressing my own concerns; I used my skills; (Electronic circuitry & US scholarships student: Computer logic, flow-charts & Philosophy logic; 3.5 GPA. ‘79/’80) in 20 years of cross-referencing all of Judge AC.F-D writings and illustrations with the illustrations in ‘Fairburn’s Crests,’ ‘Complete Peerage’s,’ genealogical and York Minster records &c. Unfortunately, for many reasons, these research investigations are not published, per se.
Kudos, as an article provocateur, yours is indeed a good article, especially for discussion. I accept the concept that sceptisism in heraldry, and indeed, histories and sciences exists, morover, that some (but not all) attributed Arms/Coat of Arms/Heraldry, are imaginary. But, good research and investigation, into what were previously classed as fables, myths, legends and falsehoods, constantly goes on, scientifically and historically, determining these previous imaginations into present day facts, and every day adds to our knowledge. PS: Congrats on your 2nd anniversary as a Wikepedian :)Stephen2nd (talk) 16:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't quite see what you're getting at. These arms are called "attributed" (in French, "imaginary") because these arms were, as far as we know, not used by the individual, although they were often based on something associated with the individual. Thus there really was a coin minted during the Edward's reign (and this origin is mentioned in the article). That's actually one historical value of attributed arms - they reveal what people of the time actually knew about the individual they were assigning arms. Gimmetrow 22:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Gimmetrow. What I'm getting at is: Do PC historians use “imaginary” to evade answers to questions of non-PC historic facts? My point being, irrelevant of the semantics of “attributed;” in French as “imaginary”, as meaning in English; existing only in the imagination. Edwards Arms were not imaginary. AoH; p97. Fig 201. (M.S. Harl, 5805, f, 392): Armorial Bearings of Thomas de Holland: “Azure, a cross flory between five martlets or.” Being the arms of Edward the Confessor. This is a difinitive statement of fact by A.C F-D, without the use of the term “attributed.” Having said as much, I would be most pleased if you or anyone could offer any opinions to these non-PC questions on the history of these Edwards arms.
Richard II, Mowbray’s and Holland’s, use of five martlets, with the original Edward’s achievement of four martlets, suggests an existance of a prior; three, two and one martlet. However, there are no known Saxon kings prior to King Edward, depicting such martlets. Edwards four martlets may suggest 62 year old Edward had four heirs as his descendants, in line with your statement of; attributed arms used as in the arms of their descendants. My own corroborated A.C. F-D research, may even suggest in the magic of heraldry, that these 1st, 2nd and 3rd symbols, may represent the symbolic origin of the Royal “Standard.” { -(1,2,3.)- ST a ND a RD-} Also suggesting that the fourth or (4th) TH, may symbolise the Cipher/Cypher of KING + HT = KNIGHT. Per se ? RegardsStephen2nd (talk) 14:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Re: Attributed arms[edit]
[1] Sorry this took so long. This is from the book by Pastoreau in French. He doesn't provide specific manuscripts, but there is a reason. He's saying that shortly after Chrétien de Troyes, the "Arthurian armoriale" included about 40 coats of arms. Pastoreau says there are at least 224 known arms in the "Arthurian armoriale" as a whole now, although no particular manuscript contained all of them together. Gimmetrow 22:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC). Thanks.Stephen2nd (talk) 13:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)