User talk:Severo/Archive 14

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Season-long competition navboxes

Now we seem to have all the race articles (thanks to EP111, and I'm sure others), what do you think about having a navbox for each year of the season-long competitions (e.g. {{1959 Super Prestige Pernod}})? It would be very good for navigating between articles obviously, as although categories are good I doubt they are used much. BaldBoris 14:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I have done that for Challenge Desgrange-Colombo, although as a series that was a lot simpler/cleaner (max 11 races, not chopping and changing each year). My intetion is to start year-by-year articles for Super Prestige Pernod and add the navboxes as I go, but I would think there are enough race articles already in existence to make navboxes worthwhile already. But the series changed races almost every year (if not every year). All in all 46 different races were included (see User:Severo/sandbox/Super Prestige Pernod). Severo (talk) 15:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay great! See User:BaldBoris/Team links for help with the {{ct}} codes. Most are quite obvious. I created team articles for all post-WWII Tours, so I assume that'll cover most in the comps. Also if you weren't aware, the Delpher site is a great place to find sources up to 1995 (548 for "Super Prestige Pernod"). Memoire du cyclisme is good, but I don't think some of the other cycling sites are as reliable in my experience. BaldBoris 16:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

In regards to categorisation, the season-long competition articles/navboxes are wrongly placed, as they aren't races, in Category:Women's road bicycle races, Category:Men's road bicycle races, Category:Men's cycling races navigational boxes and Category:Women's cycling races navigational boxes. With the articles for example, Category:Cycling season-long competitions at the top to Category:Women's season-long competitions or Category:Women's road season-long competitions seems better. We also have Category:Road cycling by year navigational boxes 2020–2004. Category:Sports seasons by sport is missing "cycling" apart from team seasons. I'm just bringing this to your attention as I believe you know your cats and didn't want to go ahead myself and mess it up. I hope some of that made sense... BaldBoris 16:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I do think some work needs to take place on the higher level of the categories there. We have Category:Cycling competitions and under that Category:Cycle racing leagues. I'm not convinced "league" is the right term, although it kind of is? Severo (talk) 21:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I can't see any of the other Wikis having that cat, just the Arabic ones thatI assume copied you. Maybe have a look at how other websites have organised things. BaldBoris 22:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Ha, I hadn;t realised I was the creator of Category:Cycle racing leagues all those years ago. Most of the other language wikis aren't great on categorization. What it seems to me is cycling competitions break down like this:

• Championships
  • World Championships
  • Continental Championships
  • National Championships
• Season-long competitions (sub-cat of sports seasons by sport?)
• Cycling at multi sports events

So it seems to be one category should cover these three types? Have I missed anything out of them? These apply across disciplines, of course. Individual cycling races would then have a different parent category. How does that sound? Severo (talk) 22:15, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Thinking about it, just rename Category:Cycle racing leagues to Category:Season-long cycling competitions, as that's what's in there, and create Category:Season-long cycling competitions navigational boxes within Category:Cycling competitions navigational boxes.

• Sports seasons by sport
  • Cycling team seasons
  • Season-long cycling competitions

I believe that's our current problem solved. BaldBoris 00:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry that's wrong. There's Category:Seasons in golf → Category:PGA Tour → Category:PGA Tour seasons etc, as well as Category:Current golf seasons. So it's clear we need, Category:Sports seasons by sport → Category:Seasons in cycling → Category:Challenge Desgrange-Colombo seasons.

Now for Category:Challenge Desgrange-Colombo → Category:Challenge Desgrange-Colombo seasons... Category:PGA Tour is also in Category:Professional golf tours, which is in Category:Sports competition series (no cycling apart from Category:Grand Tour (cycling)). Those cats are either tours and series‎. So move Category:Cycle racing leagues to Category:Cycling competition tours and series‎? Then leave the Championships and Cycling at multi sports events in Cycling competitions. BaldBoris 09:38, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

How would that interact with Category:Years in road cycling? Perhaps that would be better as Category:Seasons in road cycling? (other sports to maintain year in sport as well as season in sport. Severo (talk) 10:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

1959 Super Prestige Pernod would be in Category:Super Prestige Pernod seasons and Category:1959 in road cycling. Everything I said before is how others do it and the most obvious way forward. A season doesn't always last a year, that's why "tours and series". Just like Category:Badminton tours and series and Category:Pool tours and series. BaldBoris 10:26, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, wires were crossed. I propose moving Category:Cycle racing leagues to Category:Cycle racing competition tours and series‎ (they're not seasons)‎. Then separately create Category:Seasons in cycle sport matching Category:Cycle sport by year.

• 1999 season in cycle sport
  • 1999 UCI Mountain Bike World Cup
  • 1999 UCI Road World Cup
  • 1999 UCI Track Cycling World Cup Classics

I can't of anything better. The uncommons such as Category:2006–07 Cyclo-cross Superprestige would have to be in both 2006 and 2007? BaldBoris 13:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

There is Category:Annual athletics series‎ so maybe Category:Annual cycle racing series‎? Tree from cycling competitions would be:

• Cycling competitions
  • Cycling at multi-sport events
  • Cycle racing competition tours and series/Annual cycle racing series
    • UCI Road World Cup
      • 1999 UCI Road World Cup
  • Cycle races
  • Cycling championships

There is some gap between "cycle sport" and "cycle racing", the former includes trials and cycle polo etc; the majority of Wikipedia though focuses on things which are racing. Severo (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Probably Category:Annual cycle racing tours and series as those are the titles (UCI World Tour). The title of {{Road bicycle racing season-long competitions}} is "Road bicycle racing top-level season-long rankings, tours and series". Not sure why "tours" is first (nothing for "series and tours")? Although, it might conflict with "Tour de/of" races. So you're saying is match Category:Cycle sport by year with Category:Seasons in cycle sport → Category:Seasons in cycle racing, just in case BMX or polo articles come along? BaldBoris

I do worry on this that if tours is included then every individual race will be added to the category. Severo (talk) 22:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay drop it to avoid that happening. BaldBoris 22:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 April 15#Category:Cycle racing leagues. Severo (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

On a side, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Current requests has some "Years in.." cycling cats up. Also, Category:1968 in cycle racing shouldn't contain the road races right? BaldBoris 22:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

The road races should be in Category:1968 in road cycling. Going through some of the UCI Road World Cup races recently I have noticed that the categorization is inconsistent regarding Category:1995 in French sport and e.g. Category:October 1995 sports events in Europe. We should work towards some consistency with these. Severo (talk) 22:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:Directeur sportifs

I'm having another category quandary with Category:Cycling coaches and Category:Directeur sportifs. The former has directeur sportifs in it (expected?), and the latter is clearly underpopulated. The French Wiki has it the other way around in fr:Catégorie:Directeur sportif de formation cycliste and fr:Catégorie:Entraîneur de cyclisme. And then there's the sole commons:Category:Cycling coaches, which has both. What way do you think we should go? The question is if two are actually required considering a directeur sportif is just a coach in a car, meaning just having Category:Cycling coaches? BaldBoris 20:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I guess the problem is in road cycling that most people will occupy parts of both jobs (in track cycling they will be simply coaches). You would think a "pure" coach is there to train their riders on a day-to-day basis, ensure the mix of fitness and strength and so on. A "pure" DS would not be involved in their day to day at all, but give the team talk in the bus and then shout at everyone from the car. Most DSs probably do a bit of both - in charge of tactics at the race, but involved a bit in their riders' preparations. Given the size of the categories, I don't think merging them as categories would be harmful (given they will be split by nationality anyway). I suspect all the riders who have gone on to become DSs after their riding days aren't being captured in any category (e.g. Nicolas Portal, Max Sciandri, Pablo Lastras). Something like Category:Cycling coaches and managers? There are not many examples of combined categories from other sports (football puts managers in both the Category:Sports managers and Category:coaches by sport categories, and there is Category:Cue sports coaches, managers and promoters‎). Severo (talk) 21:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, a merge seems best. Especially considering the amount teams chop and change their DSs depending on the race. In the case of Dave Brailsford, he's a general manager. So is your proposal an inclusion of that title? Does "mangers" cover general managers and sporting directors? {{Infobox cycling team}} uses only "General manager" and "Team manager(s)"... BaldBoris 22:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes I would include all team managers and coaches. Separate tree for "executives and administrators", currently at Category:Cycle racing executives‎ which is a child of Category:Sports executives and administrators and I think would be better at Category:Cycle racing executives‎ and administrators which could include notable people of federations, race organisers etc. Severo (talk) 22:31, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

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