User talk:Peteforsyth/Archive 12

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Thank you! Sent by: xaosflux 20:28, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux Talk 17:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Hi. I'm curious why, when you restored Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, you didn't restore the oldest three original revisions? I'll admit they aren't very useful, but I don't think they rise to the level of needing to be deleted. Full confession: I live in her district and voted for her. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:19, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, maybe that's what you were referring to with, tried to restore individual revisions. Got an error. Will explore via bugzilla, restoring to how it was for now.? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:21, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
RoySmith, I'm just trying to put it back to how it was before I touched it. The basic problem is this: the edit history does not contain entries from the deletion log. So, it's easy for somebody who's not intimately familiar with MediaWiki to conclude that events not shown in the edit history did not happen. So, when they see that the article existed, and then an edit history line from Czar relating to deletion, they tend to erroneously conclude that Czar deleted the article. I think Czar's point is, it's better to have the original absent from the edit history entirely, than to have an edit history that misleads the vast majority of readers. Also, full confession: Given the opportunity, I"d vote for her too :) -Pete Forsyth (talk) 18:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks

Ha! With this diff I think we are back where we started? Cheers! Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 02:27, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Grand'mere Eugene: Yes, I suppose so :) I had thought that was in there the whole time, and was surprised to see it wasn't. Seems worth a mention, no? If I remember correctly from one or two of the source articles, it seems that the proposal has come up a number of times over many decades... -Pete Forsyth (talk) 05:55, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

A year ago ...
welcome to Oregon
... you were recipient
no. 1689 of Precious,
a prize of QAI!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Marshall

Thanks for contributing to the George Meredith discussion. In your comment, did you mean to say "Meredith" instead of "Marshall"? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:40, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


SoPo &c

(continuing an off-topic discussion from WP:Articles for deletion/South Portland Historic District. I'm quite familiar with Portland. I have been aware of the 0xxx addresses for decades, long before anyone outside of greater metropolitan John's Landing knew about them. Frankly, I'll be sorry to see them go. Somewhere - I can't put my mouse on it right now - I've even started an outline of an article on the Portland adress numbering system. Most of it is WP:OR, but I should probably resurrect it sometime soon; with the 6th address numbering sector being implemented, the O and others may well do some historical articles that could provide the WP:RS needed. And, by the way, my personal opinion is that neologisms don't belong in WP, and the use of "sextant" in this context, although it has great frequency in the popular press, is a neologism as it clearly doesn't represent a 60 degree sector of a circle. I doubt I have any chance of winning that battle here, much less in the popular press. Sigh. YBG (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi @YBG:, I'm sorry...I realized right after posting that Oregon articles are where I know your name from, and that you probably did know about that. I wanted to get it in anyway because I figure some in the discussion won't know, but I should have said it better. Anyway...just so I understand your suggestion better...are you saying that all (or undeveloped) articles about neighborhoods should be merged up to their quadrants? Or just this one specifically? -Pete Forsyth (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
I was not suggesting a general rule to upmerge small neighborhood articles into their address sector. But in the case of South Portland, it may make sense because the sector is a comparable size and because of the similarly titled articles about the address sector (South Portland, Oregon), the neighborhood (South Portland, Portland, Oregon), and the NRHP district (South Portland Historic District). Note especially that the 1st two titles give absolutely no clue as to their subject.
Back in 2015, I created an outline for an article about the Portland address numbering system. When the SoPo thing came up, I added it to WTORE and it got archived at WT:WikiProject Oregon/Archive 28 § Possible "South Portland" designation. I'd still like to see the article written, but finding RS seems daunting if not impossible.
And I'd really like someone to explain the Seattle system of 6 (or is it 9?) sectors. I've never understood it. YBG (talk) 06:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

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autopatrolled and new page reviewer

I noticed you granted autopatrolled and new page reviewer to two [1] [2] very new users who have not requested any of those rights at WP:PERM or expressed an interest in contributing to reducing the backlog at WP:NPP. Am I missing something? Vexations (talk) 00:43, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

And extendedconfirmed ?? Have they been thoroughly warned about not doing anything that will get them sanctioned for violating 500/30 rules now that there is not a technical control? — xaosflux Talk 17:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
FWIW @Vexations: the new articles (created/moved to main from draft) do appear to be in decent shape, so 'autopatrolled' could be appropriate here. — xaosflux Talk 17:31, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I trust her not to do anything harmful with any of those privileges. Unless there's something you're not telling me, she hasn't. Autopatrolled, in particular, should help keep good new articles that don't need review out of the backlog. Amy has gone to unusual lengths to learn about Wikipedia standards, her new articles may not be perfect (nor are mine) but they will not violate any important rules. If there's a problem here, I'm not seeing it. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 18:10, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

You should explicitly warn these users that you have removed a technical control that will keep them out of trouble related to articles restricted by the arbitration committee to users with 500+edits and 30 days experience since you are insisting on adding extendedconfirmed early. This is generally only done for very odd edge cases (such as users working on specific interwiki translations) as it is a flag that is automatically added when the criteria is met. As far patroller (new page reviewer), if these users are going to actively be patrolling new articles please be sure they are aware of all the expectations and perhaps complete Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol/School and learn about the Wikipedia:Page Curation/Help, if they don't intend to actually patrol other peoples articles there is no need for that flag either as it will do nothing to help them edit better. — xaosflux Talk 18:20, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm assuming good faith, but I am concerned that they won't even know what NPP is and think that it may be appropriate for them to start reviewing new pages when the page curation tools pop up without having acquired the required knowledge of policy and experience. I don't think anyone should be given new page reviewer unless they ask for it and they meet the minimum requirements at Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol/Reviewers#New_Page_Reviewer. I see no signs that anyone has even told them that they have those rights and what they entail. Vexations (talk) 18:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Let's not get carried away...I haven't "insisted" on anything. If there's a problem, I'd like to understand it -- all I meant above is that so far, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not listening. I'm going out for most of the day, so I'll respond further at a later time, probably tomorrow. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Hi! My tone on that came out wrong, stricken. Regarding the early ECP this would cover for example articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. As newer editors, they should also be sure to take care with medium-high risk templates - even the ones that don't fall under WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 restrictions. Regarding patrol access: there have been some recent technical changes to the Special:NewPagesFeed that will prompt the page triage controls to pop up for 'new page reviewers' where it didn't used to (and they don't require a 'publish' action, just a click. That is why I suggested that if you want these new editors to be using page triage (really the only reason they would need the patroller flag) they should thoroughly review the patrolling directions and guidelines. Basically, my caution is to not set these newer users up to be bitten and possibly discouraged from contributing if they wonder unprepared in to areas where competence is required (and expected). Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 19:13, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, no worries...Internet communication is always a little tricky :) After some thought, there are two general things that influenced my decision...or maybe 3:

  1. This was not a conscious part of my decision, but I've been reflecting on the feedback you've both given, and I think it played a role. My general concept of "the wiki way" -- one of the big advantages I see with wiki software is removing impediments to doing stuff, and only introducing them when it becomes necessary. If you have a moment, please read this note I posted about my experience working on the Open Directory Project, aka DMOZ, after having been immersed in the wiki world for a while.
  2. My lack of understanding of the full implications of each of the user rights. I try to follow technical developments as best I can, but I'm always a bit out of date...and I very well might be missing important nuances. So I welcome the opportunity to learn, and I thank you both for bringing it up.
  3. Number 3 is a little different, but closely related to #1. In my extensive work training new users -- including teaching several courses, etc. -- one thing that is consistently weird for new users is when they get a notification that their new article has been "reviewed." I think the intent behind the notification is good, but the result is (at least in my experience) not what is intended. If somebody has taken the trouble to learn about Wikipedia's standards and so forth, getting a notification that their submission has been "reviewed" is usually off-putting. There's no accompanying feedback, and it usually leads to questions like, "why are people looking over my shoulder?" For somebody who has not taken the process of starting an article seriously, maybe it's an appropriate step; but it seems like extra friction for those who have.

In this case, both these users are highly diligent. I have worked with them enough to have a high degree of confidence in their abilities and intentions. I'm confident neither will do anything harmful as a result, and if by some chance I'm wrong, I'm happy to take responsibility for that judgment. I did inform them when I granted them these rights, though I probably didn't go into as much detail as you're recommending.

Number two is probably the most important part, and I'd be happy to put some time into addressing it. Maybe a good outcome from this discussion could be improving the page Wikipedia:Administrators' guide/Granting and revoking user rights and those it links to, which I find a little difficult to parse.

On each of the rights:

  • Auto-patrolled: I think this is the one that directly addresses #3 above. If somebody is already getting some guidance etc., I like to remove the need to get "reviewed."
  • New page patroller: If that only gives them the ability to review new pages, and they're unlikely to actually jump in and do that, I can see your point that there's no reason to grant it, and I'm happy to stop granting that right.
  • Extended confirmed: It sounds like the use of that protection level is much more tightly limited to highly controversial areas than I had realized. While I think it's highly unlikely either of these users would make problematic edits, I also don't see a huge need for granting that access...and I'm pretty sure both of them will get to that level on their own in due time. I'd be happy to stop giving out that access so freely.

So, maybe you could give me some feedback on whether I'm understanding the technicalities properly? If I am, I'd like to continue giving out autopatrolled access where it seems worthwhile, but I'm much less concerned about the other two, and would be happy to stop giving out those rights unless there's a compelling and well-understood need. What do you (both) think? -Pete Forsyth (talk) 01:50, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

  • Hi there! If you are dealing with very very brand new editors that you think won't create a mess 'confirmed' can be good (especially if you are at an edit-a-thon!) since it has 2 huge advantages: (1) no CAPTCHAs (2)Can create an article. If you see that anyone (including newish editors) are creating new articles that meet basic acceptance standards, 'autopatrolled' is perfect since it reduces the work of new page patrol - meeting standards is important here because patrolled (reviewed) articles get their indexing flag toggled and search engines will pick up on them right away - if someone is making new articles with BLP issues, etc they should not get this until they learn how to make better articles. So in a nutshell: If you know someone isn't a vandal: confirmed is generally OK; If you know someone knows how to make a basic article without policy issues: autopatrolled is generally OK; pretty much everything else is more nuanced and there are trainings on most of them. If you are working with newer editors that want to work on a ECP protected page, encourage them to use edit requests on the talk page, they are heavily patrolled and processed with little backlog (e.g. User:AnomieBOT/EPERTable is a report). Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 03:46, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Xaosflux for the detailed reply. I have no quarrel with what you're saying, and very much appreciate your helping me to understand the technicalities better. I plan to point this discussion out to Katie and Amy, and if they want me to remove any of the permissions I'm happy to; but it seems to me like the more valuable thing is that I'll have a better idea what permissions to grant in the future, and I'm not particularly concerned about these ones unless they want me to remove the permissions. (Note that both are more than halfway to ECP, with more edits/month in October than any previous month...so they'll be there soon enough anyway.) Does that seem right to you? Vexations, anything to add? -Pete Forsyth (talk) 18:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Also, it seems worthwhile to make sure the guide pages reflect the info you've shared here. I'm happy to do it myself, but would appreciate additional eyes on anything I do around this. I just pinged you both about adding "new page reviewer" to the Admin Guide, and I also wonder whether the guide for Extended Confirmed should mention the Arab-Israeli conflict stuff mentioned here (currently, it reads as a very straightforward right, and to me just sounds like a slightly more advanced version of ordinary "Confirmed" status without significant risks.) -Pete Forsyth (talk) 19:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, will follow up over there. For these 2, I wouldn't worry about revoking ECP - as it could require manually touching it again. Personally, I think NPR should be removed until such time as they actually want to pursue that area of maintenance. Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 21:20, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

@Xaosflux and Vexations: I was able to check with Amy and Katie, they considered and were not interested in "page reviewer" at this time, so I removed that right. Thanks again for talking me through this. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 22:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

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Is there a 2019 / 2020 GLAM meetup scheduled?

Hey Pete! Hope you're well. Just wondering -- is there anything going on with GLAM? 3.5 years in and doing awesome things at the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History! Les733 (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Meetup/DC/Wikimedia_Leadership_Bootcamp_2018

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Concern regarding Draft:Rogue River Press

Information icon Hello, Peteforsyth. I just wanted to let you know that Draft:Rogue River Press, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Draft space is not an indefinite storage location for content that is not appropriate for article space.

If your submission is not edited soon, it could be nominated for deletion under CSD G13. If you would like to attempt to save it, you will need to improve it. You may request userfication of the content if it meets requirements.

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Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. Bot0612 (talk) 20:02, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I've added the draft template to the top of the page, which should stall deletion for a while. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Many thanks Another Believer. In this particular case, I don't think the pub meets the notability threshold, so I probably won't work on it more. However, we will have a problem with lots of drafts we created at Wikipedia:WikiProject Newspapers/States, many of which are just a few steps away from ready-to-publish. I'm trying to figure out the best way to proceed with those. Maybe a bunch of "touch edits" like you did here would be a good short-term solution as we work through the backlog. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
👍 Like ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:48, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

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Your draft article, Draft:Charlottesville Tribune

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Your draft article, Draft:Battle Ground Reflector

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Books & Bytes, Issue 32

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Just curious

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A barnstar for you!

The Writer's Barnstar
Thank you for creating Portland News-Telegram! I'm surprised we didn't have an article on this daily newspaper in Portland until last year. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 03:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Lord Bolingbroke. I was surprised to learn about it, I thought I knew about all the majorPortland publications over the years. This, the Portland Bee, and the Portland New Age were all interesting surprises. I hope to pull together more information about all of them. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 17:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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Re-added, had been replaced without consideration of copyright. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 03:11, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Books & Bytes, Issue 33

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Your draft article, Draft:Irrigon Irrigator

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Your draft article, Draft:Mrs. O. Feigum

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In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

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Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. CptViraj (Talk) 03:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:News Enterprise

Hello, Peteforsyth. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "News Enterprise".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. CptViraj (📧) 08:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Hollywood Star

Hello, Peteforsyth. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Hollywood Star".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. — JJMC89 (T·C) 08:13, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

The June 2019 Signpost is out!

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Books & Bytes Issue 34, May – June 2019

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 34, May – June 2019

  • Partnerships
  • #1Lib1Ref
  • Wikimedia and Libraries User Group update
  • Global branches update
  • Bytes in brief

French version of Books & Bytes is now available on meta!
Read the full newsletter

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:21, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious
Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:12, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

The Signpost: 31 July 2019

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:18, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Charlottesville Tribune

Hello, Peteforsyth. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Charlottesville Tribune".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! Lapablo (talk) 10:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:WikiProject Oregon collapsing section top (open)

Template:WikiProject Oregon collapsing section top (open) has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Trialpears (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 August 2019

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
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