User talk:NtoSi

MAD Poll

Stop taking out the MAD poll. You cannot just take out sourced information by just calling it useless and no other explanation. The two sentences about it are in different context; one is just citing three major artists w simultaneous releases and the other one represents the opinion of the readers. Something like that is definitely worth mentioning in the initial reactions section. Reader's polls as long as the source is other wise reliable, are aloud on Wikipedia. It seems to me you are just upset she came last.GreekStar12 (talk) 18:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

You are more than welcome to add negative information to Wikipedia articles, but it has to be fully backed up with facts and sources and be presented in a neutral way, especially when dealing with biographies of living persons. You have to use neutral wording and not let your own personal opinions be exhibited, nor can you take sources out of context. There was nothing in your source about the film's critical reception and the ticket sales are already sourced. It was widely known that the film would probably not earn enough tickets to cover its huge production cost from the start, and overall it did normal when comparing to the average Greek film, and this is explained in the article. Also, you should not overgeneralize things that are fairly large concepts and relative. A career is not an album, it does not have an absolute factor in it like a number. You cannot look at someone and say they've had a number 1 hit so they automatically have a successful career. You need to say what about his career attempts abroad was unsuccessful, and in your source it is just the author's opinion as she does not provide specific facts. Keep in mind that you would need a source, and take into consideration that it was a Greek-language album in the French market. You cannot be absolute about things like this; for every person that thinks his attempts were unsuccessful there is one who thinks he was quite successful for gaining the attention of major producers, charting in a major market abroad, and being one of the very few Greeks to gain international exposure/notabilty etc. There is another source in the article that describes his attempts as an absolute success, but we don't use that one either as again it is mostly just opinion of one author. To make such a huge and generalized statement know that you would need many, many sources. Additionally you mentioned the USA; that was the author's own dumb conclusion, who assumed that he went to the US to get a film deal, couldn't, and made a domestic film instead. This was obviously disproven after this article's publication as it is known that he was there for lessons and did eventually release an American film. In either case, you need to avoid phrases like "completely unsuccessful" that are both POV and sound unprofessional.GreekStar12 (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

So it's ok to use the source in Anna Vissi page, saying about her decline and that all her albums after Kravgi in the 2000-era were all unsuccessful but when it comes to Sakis Rouvas the same source is and I quote "pov info that is taken out of context of sources and overgeneralizes issues that r relative using one single opinion". So obviously it's not overgeneralization talking about a commerical decline of a living person like Vissi but it is when it comes to Sakis--NtoSi (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll you give that... about the international career, you're right. But his film career no. I added many sources that prove it and the phrase "It was generally not well received and performed poorly at the box office" is pretty much " neutral wording "--NtoSi (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

You obviously didn't get the point. First of all you did not add many sources, you added one source over and over. When I added the statement about Vandi's popularity being in decline, which is a huge, general, and controversial statement, I supported with three reliable sources, which in themselves, contained facts about it. One source for a huge statement does not work because it is only one opinion. I wrote that post Kravgi Vissi began a commercial decline, which means sales for the most part, and the source cites this and specifically backs it up with her sales. Also this article we are discussing backed it up. I did not say Vissi is a piece of crap failure in the 2000s, but she did have an obvious decline, which is undeniable because numbers are absolute, and you can't blame it just on piracy and crisis as at the time she began to decline several artists were still selling like 150k. In this article, look at how many facts she has about Vissi and Vandi, while with Rouvas it was mostly just opinion and speculation, as he had not been in Greece for a while and she was speculating he would end up like the other two. She herself did not see a sales decline and said there was no threat of someone replacing him, so she was just trying to scrape up material to prove a point. Like I said above, not only did the author not use sales/statistics to back up her point on Rouvas, but she did not even use more vague points like ex the album had low sales in France etc. It is completely open-ended and unsupported and like I said above we even here have sources that contradict that opinion, but we shouldn't use anything unless it has a very specific fact. Forget about the unsuccessful or not part, even the way you wrote the first part "his attempts at becoming a superstar in France and USA" is unprofessional. A more npov way would be "his attempts at establishing a career abroad". Anyway the US thing is just a stupid assumption made by the author. The source says absolutely nothing about Alter Ego's critical reception, that is just your statement. It only talks about its ticket sales and that is already discussed in the article. Nothing in the article says that it was a huge success; it explains how it undersold for its production costs, but covering those kind of production costs is next to impossible, so overall its ticket sales were normal for the average film. She tries to prove that he is a failure by saying the soundtrack did not really add anything significant to his sales, but she gives no number, and either way it is just a soundtrack and artists don't rely on those to be a huge commercial success, and most arent. Also, in her opinion, it was the "ultimate fiasco" for his career as an actor, but again that is just her speculation. Did it end his career as an actor? Did he not come out with a commercially successful and critically acclaimed film in 2009? So her assertion that it was bad for his career was not verified over time. That's another thing, some sources become obsolete over time. GreekStar12 (talk) 22:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I totally understand that... As I said above you're completely right about his career abroad (even though it's somehow true, it wasn't completely unseccessful but not successful either). Anyway I deleted that part but as for his movie Alter Ego it's pretty clear that it was a box office flop (as my sources clearly state) and the majority of the reviews (not all of them of course) were poor. As for the article from Vima, it's obvious that (that b*tch Vlavianou that wrote it) she was impartially judging those 3 artists but y o u have to admit that what applies for Vissi and Vandi applies for Rouvas too. You can't have it both ways. Forget the numbers about sales etc. this reporter (and of course one person's opinion) cannot determine the decline (real or not) of an artist. It's more like your personal opinion and the "idea" you're stuck on about Vissi and Vandi's decline. And as for the " commercially successful and critically acclaimed film in 2009 " I guess you're refering to Duress... And please tell me you're joking. Commercially successful and critically acclaimed... I highly doubt this statement to have any truth in it. I don't think many people even in Greece know about this film--NtoSi (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

What same source? Are you blind? I added at least 5 different sources with ref about the reviews and 2 different sources about the box office. Are you kidding me? Accept the obvious.--NtoSi (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

First of all, you need to learn how to format your references. I could not see them as they did not show up in the edit comparissons as they just came up as unlinked writing. The only one that showed up was my source, which was formatted correctly. You took out the info about Alter Ego having sold 200 thousand tickets, which was sourced. You cannot go around taking out sourced content just to prove your point, that is both POV and considered vandalism. The film and television section you added your sources in is an artistic section about Rouvas' training and acting style and business etc does not belong there. Also, you compiled a bunch of single negative reviews and to source something like that you need a general source that takes all reviews into consideration. Alter Ego received mixed reviews overall and that is cited by Forbes, so I will add a brief sentence about that in the career section. Also it is also sourced that its ticket sales were only poor for its production costs but overall it had normal sales. In either case it is discouraged from adding a whole bunch of random film reviews on an actor's page unless they are all referencing a specific point, like the film was only bad because of his performance. That is not the case here; these are general reviews that review the entire film, including the script, production, direction etc, so good or bad, they do not belong on the biography as it is its own body of work w irrelevant reviews to artist. A film is not equivalent to an album; an album is a single production attributed to one artist, a film is a large concept, and acting only makes up a very small portion of the overall effect. (ie if a review is bad because of the film's sript etc that has nothing to do with the actor). That is why at the Oscars etc acting categories make up only a very small percentage of the categories. Look at actor's pages, they do not include every random review about how the film was received etc unless it significantly impacted a career, which in this case it didn't. If you spent less time freaking out about Vissi :p you would probably know that Duress (released as Sta Akra in Greece) was a very big success both at the box office and critically, significantly affecting the way people perceived him as an actor, and that info is in the article.

Anyway I realize that you are trying to prove a point. You are mad that the source is used for Vissi and are trying to turn it on Rouvas just so I will agree not to use it at all. That's not going to work. She cited specific things in the article for Vissi and Vandi, like album sales going down, long absences from Greece, loss of cultural relevance, and Paparizou replacing them. It doesn't matter if you think she is a bitch. She did no such thing for Rouvas, citing anything really essential, and the whole thing was her prediction of what would happen, and none of it did in the end. You should also know that one potential failure is not equivalent to a commercial decline, which is a general thing compiled over years and has been a long time coming for the other two artists, and is not only cited by this source. Your attempts at trying to disprove sourced content for an artist by reflecting less relevant info onto another artist will fail 99% of the time. I know you agreed with me on the international career thing, but know that we are talking about it, Vissi's international attempts for 15 years into her 50s have been negatively received, and additionally several critics have cited it as a reason for her decline due to long absences from Greece. A criticism like that is notable as it supposedly affected her career overall. I know you are new so I'm trying to be nice to you. You should really have a read through the guidelines to get a better idea of Wiki.GreekStar12 (talk) 16:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, one of your sources was a blog and those are not aloud on Wikipedia. Just a head's up. GreekStar12 (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

First of all I have nothing against you or Rouvas (who is an artist I actually like) in case there is a misunderstanding. I read the changes and I have to admit that you did a very good job... but I still think you exagerate in general about Rouvas. He's not perfect in everything as the whole bio clearly slows. And the movie Sta Akra (because I live in Greece) was not a BIG box office hit... Don't live in a bubble. And in the article there's only one positive review from Zoumboulakis praising his performance and the movie itself. In this case only one review means that his performance was indeed good and proves a point and many "random reviews" cannot prove that a movie was good or bad in the case of Alter Ego? (and let's face it... it was a really bad movie, but that's my opinion). So I can also find a bad review about Rouvas' acting performance and do the same thing. You repeatedly put info in the Anna Vissi article, stating her commercial decline. Apagorevmeno sold 27.000 units (2x platinum) and it was her lowest selling album. You can't say that. I believe Rouvas' "Parafora" certified double platinum, or am I wrong? I am not sure. But if it's true how many units did he sold. There must be around 25.000 units or more, right? That means it's his lowest selling album, right? If it is I didn't see you writing on his article!!! So, some things apply for Vissi and not for Rouvas. I think it's unfair and you're being highly impartial. Not to mention that Rouvas never made huge sellings (like 7 platinum that Vissi did) but he still is a big selling artist so his decline cannot be that obvious like Vissi and Vandi. (I really hope you get my point and what exactly I'm trying to say to you). So it's not easy or even possible to reach a 7 platinum status again in someone's career and especially in this period. I'm not mad about anything especially for a bad review that concerns Vissi. I'm used to it. To me it sounds really bad when someone uses the word "decline" in an article because some reporter decided it is so. Anyway I'm sorry if I seemed a little mean (I'm not, really!!!) and one question: do you speak greek? And something last WP:Verifiability#Newspaper and magazine blogs which says that a blog is acceptable since the writer is a professional--NtoSi (talk) 21:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I speak Greek as a native language and I am from Greece. Second of all, I think you are living in a bubble, as Sta Akra was quite successful and was his breakthrough film, the one that changed his image as an actor, and he was acclaimed for his performance. I have seen dozens of sources citing this. Anyway this is irrelevant because there is no statement in the article about the film being acclaimed that is supported by one statement. That statement is just describing his acting. I responded to your post on my page. I don't care what you think about Alter Ego, but for the record if you thought that was bad what do you think about every other Greek film ever made, since even one of your sourced said people were scared off by it since it was too 'Hollywood' lol. Anway, its really quite simple: you can source an artist's decline. Don't pretend like Vissi or Vandi started declining just a year or two ago. This has been years in the making, and it is widely sourced, not just by one author. It is not impossible btw to get 7x plat right now since that is only 80k ish, hatzigiannis recently got 5x plat. What is to source on Rouvas? There was no decline. Vima was just speculation and Typos cited nothing about him. At least two other sources have cited his unusually consistent sales. You are very illogical if you are to compare Parafora w Apagorevmeno, Apago is 3 years old and Parafora is 3 weeks old, so if it has shipped 24k already then it would be quite successful. Anyway you need a source(s) citing an album as a commercial failure. It is not comparative oh he/she sold as much as this singer so its ok. There are albums that have sold literally millions and are considered commercial failures, its all about how it is perceived. Basically its about verifiability not truth. Like 30k for Vandi and the album was widely cited as a failure however for Paparizou that would be a success. It's all about perception. You're assertions are very illogical. This is not Vissi's first decline, she's had several fluctuations. So stop making random comparisons with Rouvas that don't even help prove your point. Rouvas is cited as holding up very well right now and being very relevant, whereas many other artists have lost their relevance. You may feel for whatever reason that the article is too positive, but everything such as the legacy and artistic sections are fully sourced, so obv these are the feelings of other publishers, I didn't write them, and there is a lot of negative info there too. It is what it is. Don't try to deflect things onto others because you do not like a general perception people have of an artist you like. And I think that will be my last post to you about this. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2011 (UTC)