User talk:Khruner/Archive 2

Nomarch against HAty-a

Hi Khruner: for your question on my wiki page. The nomarch is more a modern concept and not a real Ancient Egyptian title. It is how Egyptologist (especially older ones) called the local governors known from the rock cut tombs in Middle Egypt. Indeed, there is an ongoing discussion in Egyptology what is the main title, best translatable as 'normarch'. Perhaps the Ancient Egyptian title best translatable as nomarch is Hery-tp aA n zpAt - Great Overlord of a nome. The title appears at the end of the Old Kingdom, is common in the First Intermediate Period and disappears within the 12th Dynasty. In the earlier Old Kingdom the title was not used and it is a discussion what was the main title of a local governor. HAty-a is also a common title for local governors appearing us such the End of the Old Kingdom, but it seems that the power of the HAty-a was restricted to one town. Therefore it is most often translated as 'mayor'. Haty-a is very common in the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period for local governors. Haty-a has a second meaning and can be used as Ranking title. Altogether, I would avoid the word 'nomarch' as the Egyptian title behind it is not very clear. The article on nomarch here on Wiki is pretty weak, honestly. I think the best book on administration is in the very moment J. C. Morena Garcia,Ancient Egyptian Administration, Leiden, Boston 2013 (with a long chapter by Harco Willems on the nomarch problem. I also find Quirke, Titles and bureaux useful. The book gives many titles and explains the function. I hope that helps! best wishes -- Udimu (talk) 11:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe I can clear some things up, too: According to Wilkinson and Morenz, Haty'a (also Haty-a'a) was written with following sings:

also

or

. It commonly discribes the office of an 'Governor of the town XY' or 'Mayor of the town XY'. An example:

which reads: Mayor of the city Peh. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:42, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Nephiliskos, in my stela is F4:D36, followed by another title and by his name. The official translation gave a "prince, in charge of the temple", no city is given but the translator suggested Abydos. I hope that Quirke's book will help me with many titles that I've encountered in those steles, such as high steward lieutenant, elder son of the king (likely not literal), first herald of the king, libator(?)...
Nice, while I'm writing, in the local civic museum's list of stelae I've found a late-18th Dynasty treasurer called Hui which does not appears on en.wiki, so it could be a good idea if I take a picture of it in future. At the same time I've also found this remarkable article on de.wiki, an useful work for sure... Khruner (talk) 00:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Question

Hi. What is the name of the scribe with that ominous "Governor of Shat-Khaswt"? Maybe that helps me? In general, the hieroglyphic sign

, reading sha or shat, means "pond", "swamp", "bog", "marsh" and/or "oasis". As a verb it means "to thrive", "to revive" and/or "to sprout".

Thus, the reading of that title might also be:

• "Governor of the marsh in the foreign land"
• "Governor of all foreign ponds"
• "Governor of Shat-Khaswt", with Shat-Khaswt as an independent place name - then it should be left untranslated.

The only Nubian province, that would fit to such a title, would be the archaeological site at Jebel Marra, a sleeping volcano with two large lakes in former Lower Nubia (south-west of today Sudan). Also the region of Bahr al-Ghazal might fit. But that's highly speculative. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I found an interesting clue: according to Margaret Bunson, Ahmose, Son of Ebana was "governor of an region at south-west Nubia (today Sudan)". It must mean the region of today Bahr al-Ghazal, since it's the only area, which was of economic and military interests: a tribe called "rebels of A'a-Ta" was frequently causing trouble there. And it would fit to a place name written with the Sha-sign, because the Province of Bahr al-Ghazal is full of marshes and rain forests. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I also have read the inscription. Be careful, a part of the title is lost today! Its full form could be: since all other places on the stela are written the same way. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

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A source

Hello Khruner! I am glad to be back to active editing and while doing some work on Neferirkare I found this handy source, available online: Margaret Bunson: Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt. Infobase Publishing, 2009, ISBN 1438109970, click for pdf. I thought to communicate this to you since I believe this source has many articles on viziers and other high-officials. Anyway, this might prove useful for your editing in general. P.S: I use a lot your section "Useful links gathered here for my comfort" on your profile! Iry-Hor (talk) 12:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

And I'm glad to see you back to editing :) Yes I'm already in possess of Bunson's Encyclopedia and sometime I use it, just like yesterday with Baqet III but thanks anyway! I often use this work in parallel with Rice's Who's Who in Ancient Egypt as it seems to me a way to raise the reliability of both. Sadly Bunson's Encyclopedia does not cite the souces in every single article as Rice does.

I'm also glad you find my section useful, as you can see just yesterday I've added von Beckerath's Handbuch after seeing your link in Pepiseneb's article :) Khruner (talk) 13:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Well I have noted quite a few surprises in Bunson's Encyclopedia, for example 1) she lists Sanakht as the first king of the 3rd dynasty, something which nobody believes anymore; 2) Narmer is not listed as first pharaoh of the 1st dynasty, in contradiction with the 2 surviving king lists dating to the 1st dynasty; 3) the 1st dynasty is given a start around 2920 BC which is hyper-late; 4) Peribsen is identified with Sekhemib-Perenmaat, which is quite debatable; 4) the 13th dynasty is missing many kings, even well attested ones, e.g. Imyrimeshaw; 5) the 16th dynasty is said to comprise Hyksos vassals in the Delta when Ryholt has convinced most egyptologists that while the Hyksos had vassals, the 16th dynasty was an independent Theban kingdom; etc... So I really think you are right to be very careful with her statements. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:24, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Uh, I have to say that I was unaware of many of the issues that you have reported since I usually don't deal with anything before the collapse of the Old Kingdom... but I noticed other similar things that have made me cautious in the use of these sources, such as the persistence in the equation Intef the Elder = Sehertawy Intef I. However, Rice's work contains some inconsistency too, but the bibliography for each article makes a check much more feasible. Do you have it? Khruner (talk) 23:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

No I don't unfortunately, it is available online ? Iry-Hor (talk) 06:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I can't say that for sure... I should check it! Khruner (talk) 07:36, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the Rice's book! Meanwhile I also thought that you may not know the following reference Ancient Egyptian Chronology a book by Hornung, Krauss and Warburton which gathers and compares relative and absolute dates from various sources. It is quite precious when comparing e.g. Franke and Ryholt on the SIP. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but I already have it too :) but please tell me if you are in possess of [Percy Newberry 1936, "On the Parentage of the Intef Kings of the Eleventh Dynasty", ZÄS 72] as your recent edits on Intef III suggests. From Rice and Bunson's works I've found some curious statements about Intef the Elder's parents as well as a mysterious queen consort of Mentuhotep I called Sit-Sheryet. Khruner (talk) 10:21, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't (I wish I had it!!). I nonethelss used this source because: 1) it is cited by Rice and Baker for Intef III's parentage; 2) it is clearly reliable; 3) the claims made by the source are well established today with numerous archeological and historical evidence for the parentage (see the Family section). I prefer to cite only sources I can read in full but if an inaccessible source is reliable, cited by reliable work and claims something well established, I prefer to cite the original source even if I can't access it. P.S: talking about sources, the MET has put many of its publication online for free and in downloadable pdf format take a look here for example. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

←| No problem about that, in September I'm going to get this paper from my university. I really appreciate the initiative of the Met, I hope that other important museums do likewise! Khruner (talk) 09:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:PERM Request

Hi Khruner, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the autopatrolled right to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! — xaosflux ^Talk 12:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Aston paper

Have you read David Aston's paper 'Radiocarbon, Winejars and New Kingdom Chronology' in Agypten und Levante 22 (2012) pp.289-315 here? Perhaps you can access it online at your University if you are a full time student. Aston argues that Ramesses II came to power in 1290 BC and suggests that Amenhotep II has a 31-34 year reign. He also argues for increasing Thutmose IV's reign beyond 10 years. He finally argues that perhaps Thutmose III came to power around 1493 BC. Aston argues that Seti I only had a reign of 9 years rather than 11 years since his royal tomb had wine labels which mentioned only his Year 8 date. So, if Seti I had a 11 year reign, there should have been several Year 9, 10 or Year 11? wine labels too.

Some of Aston's paper is just theories but other parts are quite good...and it looks likely that Ramesses II came to power in 1290 BC rather than 1279 BC. Thomas Schneider also accepted 1290 BC for Ramesses II's accession date in a A & L 20 (2010) 'Contributions to the Chronology of the New Kingdom and the Third Intermediate Period' paper he wrote but Egyptologists are taking their time in accepting this so its best to keep 1279 BC as Ramesses II's accession date on Wikipedia for now. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I have heard about the importance of wine labels in determining the years of reign for this period (an example should have been Horemheb's reign length, if I'm not mistaken...). Unfortunately during August the libraries of my university will be inaccessible and I do not have permission to access resources online... But I see in the database that this paper should be in their possession so I will read in September. Khruner (talk) 09:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's good. By the way, A & L 22(2012) & 23 (2013) were published in one single volume. I managed to access it online at my University in late July when I visited it. Since I am not a regular University student, I cannot access it from home. I don't know if I accept Aston's case for increasing Thutmose IV's reign to 20 or 30 years since his royal tomb was unfinished but apart from that I have always found the inscriptions referring to Amenhotep II's heb sed (Year 30?) and renewal of the heb sed (Year 33/34?) to be suggestive of a 30-33 year reign. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 18:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Same here, I'm not a regular student so I can't obtain it via web. Would be interesting to find out if some academic did a reply to Aston's claims and in that case, a counter-reply by Aston... Khruner (talk) 19:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• In a 2011 article (that Aston references in his A & L paper) J. van Dijk argued that the reading of the Gebel Barkal stela date to Year 11 of Seti I's reign is wrong...and should instead be read as Year 3. van Dijk argued in his 2011 article, The Date of the Gebel Barkal Stela of Seti I in "Under the Potter's Tree, Studies on Ancient Egypt presented to Janine Bourriau, on the occasion of her 70th birthday, pp.325-332" that the Year 10 sign was 'suspiciously large' and 'the apparent oversizing of the [Year 11] hieroglyph is probably the result of damage to the stone, the actual year being, in reality, Year 3 (three vertical strokes) with the apparent curve linking the first and second strokes of the year 3, being nothing but an illusion caused by a break of the stone. The stela was reused as a paving slab in a later building and the part preserving the date was crumbling to pieces states Dijk. (Aston writes Dijk's comments on page 295 of his paper) Finally, the stela depicts an erect figure of Seti I rather than bowing (or stooping) but from Year 4 of Seti I onwards, the stooping posture replaced the erect posture of Seti I on his stelas...so this Year 11 stela is an anomaly and was either an an exception to this rule, the work of an old fashioned sculptor or a misreading of the date. The fact that Seti I's highest known date is his Year 9 (if one ignores the Gebel Barkal stela) and the presence of only Year 8 wine dockets in his tomb which would likely refer to the final vintage made before this ruler's death suggest that his maximum reign is 9 years only argues Aston--and that the Gebel Barkal stela should be read as Year 3 of Seti I. Goodnight from Canada, --Leoboudv (talk) 09:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like a déjà vu of the issue with Usermaatre Osorkonu that you proposed to me in June, if you remember... The theme is an Egyptologist making a virtually ineccepible argument which can change significantly a thing once seemed established... Just more difficult! Khruner (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Its not totally unrealistic here since the various versions of Manetho's epitome gave Seti I either 51, 55 or 59 years--which once you remove an excessive 40 or 50 years means you get 9, 11 or 15 full years for this king. A reduction of 2 years for Seti I's reign from 11 to 9 years is possible especially since there are no wine labels higher than his Year 8 in his tomb. It was Van Dijk who first argued for this position on Seti I just as it was Van Dijk who argued that Horemheb's reign should be reduced from 27 years to 14 years on the basis of wine labels found in this king's tomb--something which is today accepted by virtually all scholars. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe that these statements definitely deserve a mention in the article, as these sound anything but fringe. What is the name of van Dijk's paper? I will search it in September along with Aston's one. Khruner (talk) 07:33, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Its mentioned here under 2011. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 05:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC) But I have the paper too. --Leoboudv (talk) 05:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Shemay

I was wondering if you had enough material to creat an article on the vizier Shemay? He lived during the 8th Dynasty and is mentioned on decrees of Neferkaure and Neferkauhor. He was apparently quite powerful at the time, being married to Neferkauhor's daughter and having his son Idy governing the 7 southernmost nomes of Egypt. Shemai's son Idi is also present in the decree of Horus Demedjibtawy (see Neferirkare and Wadjkare). This may be a bit meager however for an article to be made about him, unless you have some more info about him. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes I know something about him, he was supposed to be a big shot at the very end of the Memphite period. I can try to gather some information from "generalist" works and encyclopediae and write at least a stub about him. He definitely deserves an article, being more powerful than a nomarch and an ordinary vizier... Let me some time to accumulate informations! Khruner (talk) 18:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Well that's goo news then! He and his son Idy are mentioned in the decrees I cited above so you can look these up to gather some info. He must indeed have been quite powerful marrying the daughter of a pharaoh and having ruled Upper Egypt. By the way what does Shemay mean? It is "He of the South"? Iry-Hor (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I really don't know, I thought of Tutankhamun's nomen Heqaiunushema meaning "Ruler of the upper Iunu", then could be Shema = Up(per), then Shema-i = He from the "Up" (i.e. the South)?? I just can fantasizing about it... Khruner (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Strangely enough the "Shemai" in Djedkare Shemai is translated as "the nomad". I don't know where this translation comes from, but maybe Sehmay also means the nomad, who knows. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi, you two. Actually, shemaj means "nomad, wanderer, stranger", but it was also referred to any names for the Hyksos. I have put sources and translations into the article. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Nephiliskos, and thanks for the translation, and also thanks to Iry-Hor for the paper, I've just read it as well as your last edits on the Coptos Decrees. I have to do just some little fixes; for example, it seems that their more recent names are a, b, c... and not A, B, C, this one being an older numeration... Khruner (talk) 16:34, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Nephiliskos that clarifies things! About the decrees, there are still a few troubling aspects which I believe owe to the fact that Hayes' publication is old (1946) and not up to date. For example, Hayes sees only one decree from Neferkaure, while according to your edit, Gardiner sees 3 decrees from Neferkaure. In Hayes' list, two decrees are said to originate from an unknown 7th/8th dynasty king, which might be Neferkaure, in which case Gardiner and Hayes would agree. So we need to put up to date information in the article as you say. Also note how Shemay's son Idy becomes vizier after Shemay. Iry-Hor (talk) 16:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, even from other sources I already had the confirmation that Idy's career replicates the one of his father: for 3 times he filled the vacuum left by Shemay. For the Neferkaure's issue, check the small table at page 21: in a certain sense, Hayes too places the decrees g, h and i under Neferkaure's reign... Khruner (talk) 16:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I will edit Neferkaure's article then, attributing him 3 decrees. Meanwhile I was thiking we might want to propose Coptos Decrees as a Did you Know? candidate. We need a good hook though. Do you have one in mind? P.S: I just found this which talks about Shemay's duties and activies a little bit. This might be useful for an article on Shemay. Iry-Hor (talk) 10:03, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the extra source, I'll try to integrate it in the embryonic article. About the Do You Know?, I really don't have any idea, it's difficult to create something short but catchy for a similar topic... Which hook did you find when you proposed Imyremeshaw? Khruner (talk) 11:06, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I used "... that the two colossal statues of Imyremeshaw were usurped by Aqenenre Apepi and Ramses II?", it did not attract so many people (couple thousands nevertheless since it was on the main page!). I had a lot more success with "... that the first serekh of Double Falcon was discovered by a peasant planting a palm grove?" which got a couple tens of thousands. I believe this is because most people don't know what a serekh is and that "Double Falcon" was a king so the hook looked quite silly and it worked. We need to decide fast though because it must be nominated within 5 days of creation. I propose "... tha the Coptos Decrees reflect the decline of the Old Kingdom?". Iry-Hor (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

The story of Double Falcon obviously arouses more curiosity, just think about a farmer who digs something on which strange and unreadable signs were carved ... Surely it's more fascinating! The hooks for Coptos Decrees looks a bit ambitious, but it is ok I guess. "Old Kingdom of Egypt" maybe could help, or it is better to keep some mistery? Khruner (talk) 13:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes I thought to leave the mystery there but you may be right that reviewers might think the hook too vague. I just finished reading your article on Shemay and was surprised at the number of titles this guy gathered in his life. Reading the decree of Demedjibtawy, one can see that his son Idy reached similar heights: he is called "the god's father, beloved of god commanding, royal pupil, supervisor of the city of the (royal) pyramid, judge of the gate, vizier, maker of offerings to Min, Idi." Iry-Hor (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I just nominated Coptos Decrees for DYK, see here, of course I specified that the article was created by Khruner. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I reported this list of titles from a single decree (sadly I can't figure which one, seems that Shemay was not the recipient), but I have seen in other decrees some other titles that doesn't appear here, thus the list is technically longer than that. Yes, just now I've received the notification about the nomination, thanks :)
EDIT: @Iry-Hor is still possible to add the decree d picture to the hook? Khruner (talk) 10:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I think so, you can add the picture simply by editing this Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Coptos_Decrees. Note that there is only one DYK with a picture allowed by batch of DYKs (see the main page) so this might impact the time it takes for Coptos Decrees to appear on the main page. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, in that case is better to keep it as it is then! Khruner (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello I would like to have your opinion regarding Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ancient_Egypt#A_proposition_regarding_Template:Pharaohs Iry-Hor (talk) 10:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Schneider's 2010 A & L paper

Aston also noted that Schneider in this above A & L 2010 paper (p.402) dated Ramesses II's accession at 1290 BC--and it looks like this appears to be more likely. Aston unfortunately does not have an academia account but Schneider's paper can be downloaded for free. Many of Aston's ideas on Thutmose IV's reign, I think, are just speculative but his other points are likely correct. PS: Unlike Van Dijk who assigned Seti I only 8 years, Aston in 'Radiocarbon, Winejars and New Kingdom Chronology' A & L 22 (2012) gave Seti I a reign of 9 full years (which implies a brief Year 10 that lasted only 2 days since Seti I's accession was III Shemu 24 and Ramesses II's accession was III Shemu 27) I think Aston is right since Seti I is known by two major Year 9 dates...so he should have completed his full 9th regnal year before dying in his very brief year 10 even if there are no Year 9 wine labels in his tomb. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 04:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, more meat on the BBQ... In the upcoming days I will be a bit busy but I'll try to synthesize all this information about the reign length of Seti I. Khruner (talk) 07:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's OK. Aston's A & L paper will be helpful if you can see it in September, I suppose. --Leoboudv (talk) 18:36, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I made a mistake on Seti I. Aston's A & L chronology table does give this king only 8 years. Aston has:

• Horemheb: 1313-1299 BC
• Ramesses I: 1299-1298 BC
• Seti I: 1298-1290 BC
• Ramesses II:1290-1224 BC

Aston has an option to date Horemheb at 1313 or 1314 BC but he chooses on the (more likely) date of 1313 BC. Hence he has 8 years for Seti I, like Van Dijk. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Aston gives Thutmose IV 27 years in his 'high' chronology table but this is excessive for a king who never even finished his own tomb. It was much shorter and was likely either 9-10 years (conventional chronology) or 19 years at the most. I think 9-10 years is reasonable. However, 31 years for Amenhotep II seems likely due to the heb sed inscription known for him and Manetho's comment that an 18th dynasty king named Amenophis ruled 30 years and 10 months. A friend of mine who has read the paper thinks that RII came to power in 1290 BC and TIII came to power in 1479 BC and not 1493 BC as Aston suggests. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

My interest in this papers is increasing due to those quite relevant claims. Few days left to September. But I think that the final editor of the correspondent articles should be you, due to your greater knowledge of both the topics and the English writing... Are you still so much busy? Khruner (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, I have another job to do right now and I edit only sporadically on Wikipedia. Sorry, --Leoboudv (talk) 22:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I will handle that then, hoping to do well Khruner (talk) 13:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

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Request for an opinion

Hi. Could you take a look here, please? It's the newest project of mine. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The three book I have lined up are the main source for the article. About Bes: yes, he was indeed a dwarf deity. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Djehuty

Hello Khruner, I just saw your article on Senebhenaf and in it, it is said that the position of Djehuty is not known and Ryholt is given as a reference for this statement. However this is not true, as can be seen in the article on Djehuty: Ryholt very clearly places him as the second king of the 16th Dynasty and even gives very precise dates for his reign at 1648–1645 BC. One may not agree with Ryholt's analysis but at least Ryholt should not be given as a reference for the statement that Djehuty's position is unknown. Similarly von Beckerath believes he knows the position of Djehuty, placing him as the 4th king of the 17th dynasty. Thus I suggest that Djehuty's position be called "uncertain" rather than unknown. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Very good point, I did not even noticed the "not known". I also was tempted to replace "SIP" with "16th Dynasty" but at last I preferred to keep the status quo. I'm going to fix the issue. Khruner (talk) 08:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK Shemay and Coptos Decrees

Hello Khruner our Did You Know? proposals have been reviewed see here : Template:Did you know nominations/Coptos Decrees. The reviewer proposed to combine the DYK for Shemay and Coptos Decrees and came up with a good hook for that, please share your thoughts with us on this matter! Iry-Hor (talk) 07:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the North Maghzuna Pyramid

You might like to see this: [2], in particular, the illustrations, all free of rights. Thanks for this great article! Iry-Hor (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the appreciation, I did little more than traslating it from de.wiki (the article also shares much with the southern pyramid article). Petrie's book is indeed rich in illustrations but very few of these refers to the northern pyramid and are mainly plans of the hypogeum, nicely drawn but in my opinion somewhat redundant compared by modern isometric reconstructions... I'd love a picture of the pyramid remains like the many of the southern pyramid but nothing like that seem to exist, but surely this book should be linked in the article for future expansions. Any suggestion about which illustrations we could rip from it and use in the northern pyramid article? --Khruner (talk) 10:59, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately even a google search for images of the North pyramid turned up absolutely nothing... Amazing! Iry-Hor (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Coptos Decrees

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Shemay

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Dwarfs and pygmies in Ancient Egypt

Hi. Thanks for fixing things in this article. I hope you enjoyed reading. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, of course I did, very nice article :) --Khruner (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to have it on DYK, but I dunno how put it there. Would you help me out? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Hm, just few days ago I and Iry-Hor managed to get two DYKs, but actually I did nothing more than creating the articles while he handled all the bureaucracy... The only thing I know is that yous should create an "hook" i.e. the short, catchy phrase which actually will be seen in the main page. But you should ask to Iry-Hor about the procedure, I'm sorry... Khruner (talk) 12:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

A List

Hello Khruner, while digging in Wikipedia I stumbled on List of ancient Egyptians, which tries to list all the ancient Egyptians with an article on Wikipedia. The list seems heavily outdated but is not without interest and seems quite visited (~200 visits/day). Since you have created a number of pages on ancient Egyptian people, you may want to consider updating this list with these people (I am doing it with SIP pharaohs and it is quite tedious...). Iry-Hor (talk) 08:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I see, I'll update the list with my past and future "creations", hoping that my small netbook can handle such a enormous article without problems! --Khruner (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Pyramid of Neferhotep I?

Hello Khruner, while reading sources concerning Neferhotep I, I came accross a claim made by Michael Rice in his Who is who in Ancient Egypt that Neferhotep I had a pyramid built for himself at el-Lisht. So far, this source is the only one I have consulted to claim this, so I wondered if you may know more on the matter (since I remember that you like 13th Dynasty pyramids)? This would be an important information to add to Neferhotep's article. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:55, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Iry-Hor, glad to see you back in action and thanks for expanding the article of Neferhotep I, a king to whom I am attached. I remembered to have already read somewhere the statement you quoted, and in fact is a claim by Grimal: "Neferhotep I was perhaps buried in a pyramid at el-Lisht, some distance from Sesostris I" (History of Ancient Egypt, p.184). Apparently Grimal does not give precise references, maybe the purported pyramid is one of the duo Lepsius 63-64 but without a proof (something like Merneferre's pyramidion) any claim and attribution is purely conjectural, although I don't see the reason why pharaohs such as Neferhotep I and Sobekhotep IV should not have built even a small pyramid. Khruner (talk) 08:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

They almost certainly did, the question is where. It could be in Lisht since it was the necropolis of Itjtawy but it could also be in Abydos for all we know (after all Sobekhotep I or II had his pyramid there and Neferhotep seemed to like the place if one believes his year 2 stela). Alternatively, why not in the vicinity of Thebes, from which Neferhotep's family originates and to which Sobekhotep IV was particularly attached. In any case, I might add it somewhere in the article, stressing that this remains conjectural. P.S: how do you choose which pharaoh you like?? Apepi, now Neferhotep I... Iry-Hor (talk) 10:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, both el-Lisht and Abydos are plausible places, I never considered Thebes before but if so it could be the first royal burial here since the times of the 11th Dynasty. About the pharaoh that I like the explanations would be too long. Years ago I saw Neferhotep's statuette the museum of my town and my dad noticed my interest and bought me Gardiner's Egypt of the Pharaohs; my fascination with ancient Egypt started here, and in a sense it was thanks to Neferhotep. I have many other favorite pharaohs such as Senusret III (mainly for his touching, disillusioned expression on his statues), Amenemhat I, Apophis, Tefnakht, Merikare and go on... Khruner (talk) 11:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Tefnakht and Merikare as well, how come? Personally, I don't like Amenemhat I: what did he do to Mentuhotep IV (precipitating the end of the awesome 11th dynasty, less than 20 years after Mentuhotep II!)? I am pretty sure he usurped the throne violently, otherwise how can we explain that Mentuhotep IV's reign is referred to as 7 kingless years in later records? He must have usurped the throne and then obliterated Mentuhotep IV's memory as thoroughly as possible, baring his contemporaries from even considering that Mentuhotep was a king. About Neferhotep I at Lisht, reading the Scepter of Egypt, it seems that Grimal based his hypothesis on indirect evidence: scarabs of Neferhotep and more importantly a shawabti (and its miniature coffin!) of a son of Neferhotep I named Wahneferhotep found close to the mortuary temple of Senusret I in Lisht. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Surely Amenemhat I was ambitious, but Mentuhotep IV seems to have been the opposite. Is it possible that Amenemhat illegally - and maybe ruthlessly - took the throne as shown by the existence of pretenders in the south like Segerseni, but it looks like he was the right man at the right time, he ensured stability in the somewhat obfuscated period after the death of Mentuhotep II and laid the foundation that will make the 12th Dynasty one of the greatest (for me, the greatest of all).
About Neferhotep, nice point, it looks plausible that his royal tomb could be at el-Lisht. Anyway, did you know about his second naos which was found in Karnak in 2005? See here and here. I don't have heard anything more recently about this naos, so I assume that it will stay buried under Karnak forever. Khruner (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Nah I still don't like Amenemhat I, I see that he founded one of the greatest dynasties (maybe the 18th still gets the first place, and the 4th is tied in 2nd), but I very much like Mentuhotep II and I am sure he would not have let his vizier get over him had he still been alive... Thanks for the info regarding the second naos, this clarifies something written in the French wiki which says that the naos has been left buried in the sand (for protection) as it could not be removed due to the surrounding structures. I will add this info to the article on Neferhotep. Iry-Hor (talk) 15:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

J. Miller

I think you and Udimu already know about J. Miller's paper here about the identity of Nibhuririya. It was written before Van Dijk proved that Horemheb had a 14 year reign but otherwise the facts are unchanged. Goodbye....as I have to work. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 02:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this paper too, Leoboudv, I appreciate it as usual! Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I have been looking for this for 2 years

Mentuhotep IV award

It has been almost 2 years since I started a quest trying to find a picture of Mentuhotep IV, free of copyright. The combine might of Amenemhat I and the copyright laws made this quest nearly impossible and I failed miserably at it until tonight when I saw on Mentuhotep IV's article that you had fulfilled it. As a connoisseur and lover of the 11th Dynasty, I thank you for this brilliant upload. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

P.S: I also answered your question on the talk page concerning Sobekemsaf II and Neferhotep I in Lepsius Denkmaler.20:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC) Iry-Hor (talk)

Thanks for the appreciation, I was happy to change the previous scarab by Petrie: it surely was non-contemporary and also somewhat dubious in his attribution, but at the time it was the only picture related to Mentuhotep IV that I could find. And thanks for answering me about Sobekemsaf's cartouche! I will crop and upload the two inscriptions soon. Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Homosexuality in ancient Egypt

Hi. I have re-edited this article, using good literature. May I ask for your opinion and to keep an eye on it? Such an precarious theme... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, nice work, expecially in finding sources in Khnumhotep's paragraph. I'll keep an eye for sure, a similar theme could be a target of vandals indeed. I made some little edits such as paragraphs, few links and Nyuserre being a king of the 5th Dynasty. Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I just love these special themes. Maybe I'll find more for this article... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

King Khufu...

...is under attack by vandalising IPs. Please keep an close eye on it, like me. Reards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Fine, though we only can rollback edits; if the vandal keep going I think we could warn Dougweller. Khruner (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Okidokie, let us do that if necessary. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

On viziers

Hello Khruner. Recently I have been looking for court officials living during Sahure's lifetime and I came to realise that the English wikipedia lacks a proper list of Egyptian viziers. Of course there is Vizier_(Ancient_Egypt)#Notable_Egyptian_Viziers, however the list is said to be "of notable viziers", which leaves you wondering by which criterion are vizier notable or not. Also, such a list is by definition fragmentary and lacking and thus not as useful as a list comprising all viziers (see "Liste der Wesire des Alten Ägypten" on the German wiki). It appears that lately, with your edits and also those of others, the list of "notable" viziers is slowly becoming a list of all viziers. Why not officialize this and make the list as thorough as possible (and possibly as a separate article)? Just for Sahure I found out that there are more viziers than just Sekhemkare of the list, so I am guessing this opens the route to a large number of edits. This will also facilitate the life of editors (like me!) looking for the viziers of a pharaoh. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. You are right, I never considered the "notable" thing, and indiscriminately put every new or found vizier in that list... But maybe a vizier is "notable" when he has an article about him, I don't know. Surely the creation of a separate article in the German manner could facilitate a work like the one you mentioned... Was your intention to translate the German article? Khruner (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking of using the existing list and that from Digital Egypt here as a basis, then put all viziers I come accross in the list. It will get complete over time (I guess we can also incorporate those from the German list as well). At some point, I reckon that most of the viziers will have an article (some may already have one, and may be orphaned precisely because there is no such list). In any case, the "notable" adjective should be removed. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good for me, tell me if you need any help with that list! Talking about this kind of lists, you just remembered me my little project concerning a list of Apis burial, maybe I'll exhume it in the weekend... Khruner (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, and do you think I should create a new article with the list or leave it in the article on viziers? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

If it were up to me I would ask the project, but since it is rarely visited I would do a new article; after that, I would try to expand the original Vizier article maybe with an integration from de.wiki... Khruner (talk) 08:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

My home- and discussion page

I just re-created my lil' wikipedia home. Like it? ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 00:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Just seen, sound nice, but somewhat a little dissuasive in the talk page :D I'd like to visit to Rhineland-Palatinate one day... --Khruner (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey, I'm just trying to be open and honest. :D Yeah, come to Rhineland-Palatinate. I couls help you to organize your travel, if you like. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll keep it in mind, thanks :) OT: do people from there extensively cultivate hop? Just a curiosity of mine, I'm interested in the topic since I'd like to start a very small cultivation... --Khruner (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I can tell you stuff from my region (north-west tip and middle). The main cultivating species on sunny mountainsides include hop, sweet winegrapes and fruits such as bramble and raspberry. On rather shady mountainsides you will find winegrapes for sour wine sorts and champagne. As a cultivation advise I'd say you need a soil which is both moisture storing yet permeable to air. Our soil here is rich with clay, charcoal and limestone, but also contains litter humus. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I see, thanks a lot for the explanations :) Khruner (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I often witness hop that has wildered out. If you like, I gotta harvest some cuttlings with roots and send them to you. ;) --Nephiliskos (talk) 15:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be nice of you, thanks :) but there is no need of that, wild hop is widely present in the vicinity of my house too; my plan is to grow some cultivars hoping to make a small harvest suitable for brewing... Khruner (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Like an Egyptian, huh? :D Self-brewed beer tastes great, if you use not too much hop... ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Can't wait to drink a Masskrug of that then ;) Khruner (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Venus of Savignano

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The answering mail..

... is on its way. ;o) I'm so curious about your opinions. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Very nice and clear, are these all-digital works? About the seal impressions, these are nicely stylized and perfect. Though not exactly the idea I had for Hotepibre's mace for which I was thinking of a realistic - thus imperfect - rendering :)

Did you use a graphics tablet or something, possibly in the two images with human figures (Den and the other duo related to Peribsen)? Khruner (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

All drawings were created with CorelDraw X6. ;-) All hieroglyphs you see were put together by dozends of bodyparts, then rendered as fix group image and then saved as png.-file. Lots of hard and nerve-bending work, but I love it. If you enjoy them so much, would you upload them on commons for me? I'm still too goofy for that, on de.Wiki it's much easier... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC) PS: about the mace head: what about the idea you draw the whole object as it is and I draw an mace relief impression?

Ok, I'll put these on Commons no problem, but probably you should add a proper description after the upload, since only you know everything worth knowing about this pictures. About the mace, deal: I will draw the object as it appears on the picture, and you can draw the impression with inscription and baboons if you like!

Talking about animals and special hieroglyphs, I've found times ago a hieroglyph that looks like a sitting shrew to me, and I failed in finding an equivalent on Gardiner's sign list, so can I send it to you maybe? Khruner (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure! Just send it to me. ;o) Please leave links to each common file of my drawings on my discussion page, ok? I'll fill the discriptions ASAP. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Heey!^^ Guess what I've got! Right, I got several special hieroglyphs for you to upload and I got the macehead inscription! Shall I send them via mail? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi , Nephiliskos yes send me all, you did the mace inscription already? I'm not sure when I will finish the drawing, since I'm somewhat busy in these days...! Khruner (talk) 14:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Never thought that this would happen, but... I forgot my usb-stick at work... -.-" I'll send them tomorrow after job lunch. Srry... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

No problem :) Khruner (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Lots of drawings are on their way. ;-) Have fun.^^ Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Ummmm... I hope I do not sound ungrateful, but: What about the file of Scheri? I've send an re-drawn version that was meant to replace the older version... And, one request: Do think you could mirror all sitting baboon-figures and the deities "Schatju" and "Chepri"? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure about your first request, only the uploader can request a deletion, and technically I've uploaded the files but with your name... Is that so bad if both versions remains on Commons? And above all, to replace which file, "Inkef2"? But the hieroglyphs are different... About the second thing, I can do that but it will lose the transparency Khruner (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

So Nephiliskos, have you decided about the hieroglyph mirroring? And you should explain me which file is intended to be replaced by "Sherj.png" (I was confused with the two files "Sij.png" and "Inkef2.png" before, since these are the only files that looks quite similar among the drawing I've uploaded from you) Khruner (talk) 08:17, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. Gosh, I'm a dwerp! Of course I meant the offical Inkef, I had corrected his relief (his son is in fact "levitating" before his pops, the ol' bonebag nearly rams his scepter into the backhead of the boy). And in fact, Inkef and Sij are both portrayed in Scherj's mastaba - which explains the same-looking artistic representation.

About the hieroglyphs. yes, please mirror them. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok Nephiliskos, then I'll try to request "Inkef2.png" deletion, but consider that it appears to be in use on de.wiki! Khruner (talk) 12:27, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll take it off and leave a note there. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Done. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The secret of the "shrew"-hieroglyph

Hi! I just received the picture - and was amused. ;-)) What we see here are sloppy drawn baboons, sitting on their butts and having put their hand onto their lap. This goes perfectly consistent to the name of the king: Sibast-Upu-mery-Amun = "Anointed by Upu, beloved by Amun". ;o) Upu was the Ancient Egyptian gatekeeper of the underworld, he was mostly shown as a white (silvern?) baboon, either sitting and holding a long, sharp knife in his lap or he was standing upright and holding one knife in each hand. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 08:55, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see, I thinked about a sort of ape before I changed to a shrew because it looks to me more similar. So this hieroglyph still does not exist in Gardiner's sign list? And I have some problems in reading the royal name: meryamun and sibast are both clear, then remains the baboon plus w3(?)-p-t (): what is their contribution in forming the birth-name Iuput (or Auput)? Khruner (talk) 12:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Nice that you noticed. ;)) Meanwhile I met another, unexpected problem: I can't find the cartouche from the book you showed me. I searched ANYWHERE, but none of the sources gives an Auput, whose cartouche name was written with baboons (I mean, c'mon, see the Wiki-articles of the two Auput kings). How can that be??? It had to be either some sort of Auput III., or the book gives a fake. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:40, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Not sure I have understand the whole thing... Here's the book, and I came to it book via von Beckerath's Handbuch: pp.204-205, "Auput II." (E1). It is likely that von Beckerath here rendered the baboon as a sitting human figure with a lion head... Khruner (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, that book is from 1884... at this time many cartouche names were full of errors... My main problem is that I can't find the cartouche from the book anywhere.--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Beside of plate 1, Auput's cartouches appears at page 10, while in pp.10-11 Griffith argues that this inedit rendering must be a variant of the classic writing (the one with the recumbent calf) and correctly realizes that this Auput is the same ruler of Leontopolis submitted by Pije, and not the namesake and earlier High priest of Amun (there was another Auput too, an ephemeral coregent of Petubast I but here is not considered at all) Khruner (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Aaaaahh!!! Ok, that explains a lot. Well, since we have no sitting Baboon I gonna create that special hieroglyph and send it to you, ok? Then we can use Griffith as a source for the cartouche. Of which date is Griffith? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This work is edited in 1890, and Griffith died in 1934. Any news regarding how the baboon hieroglyph and the other three can form the Auput/Iuput name? :) Khruner (talk) 20:05, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, the sign group sitting baboon

actually belongs together, the three sign are the phonetic transcription of the Upu-sign. ;-) V4 = "u"; Q3 = "p"; V13 = "u(t)"... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)