User talk:Hectorian/Archive 3

Reply[edit]

Have you looked at the current state of the the article Armenian-Turkish_relations?? and pls also have a look at its talk page talk:Armenian-Turkish_relations... I rewrote it and enriched it, and there is also a comment by the guy who created the article user:Fedayee who confirmed that it was nice editing.. This deletion that u mentioned ONLY took place because I am new to Wikipedia and I didn't have much experience on how editing works.. The current state of the article CLEARLY shows this, that part of the article is still there and it has much more clarity... I have also copy-edited the PKK article from TOP to BOTTOM, something nobody was willing to do for AGES, if you have any evidence of bias there, pls feel free to change it... Pls stop trolling.. I have lived in Turkey, the US and France (still there) during my life, I went to schools that 99 percent of the people of this world doesn't have the luck to go and I speak three languages fluently, the Hagia Sophia picture definitely DIDN'T piss me off, in fact I see it as a good evidence of how intertwined Turkish and Greek cultures are, and as such, a wealth to be cherished, when I saw the picture, that's not at all what I was thinking, that kind of animosity belongs in the past... ANYONE, Turkish, Greek, French, Russian etc. that puts so many quotes about the greatness of his country is a nationalist, if you can point me to a Turk that has so many quotes on his page, I give you my WORD that I will write on his page exactly what I just wrote. I have not claimed to be the unique (or any) example of democracy and never will... And please let's not skirt the issue, being democratic doesn't mean blindly accepting every political claim of grievance put forward for the sake of political correctness.. You have still not been able to anwser my posts in the talk page... If, for one reason or the other, you got some beef with the Young Turks, pls keep it to yourself UNLESS you got the proof to back it up.. I have not even mentioned or defended, or attacked the Young Turks in any of my postings, where did this come from???? I most probably know about the atrocities that the Young Turks have committed or influenced much more than you do, I have made extensive research on European legal history, as I said I am an international lawyer, I have read hundreds of thousands of pages concerning history, law and philosophy to this day. As i said, again, you don't know me, you don't know what i do in life and you don't know what experiences I had in life to this point.. If you are assuming that all Turks are chauvinistic nationalists, than u r wrong and that's not cool; if u don't however, pls act accordingly.. What I am saying is, however, that allegations have to be substantiated... But, I am definitely someone to lay down and give people free reign to settle old scores on the other hand, FYI.. If there is enough PROOF of anything, I WILL believe it.. I am an atheist and I believe that the only valid form of proof is the scientific one, and as such, claims have to be proven using the Scientific Method.. Why don't u spend your time trying to answer my posts rather than engaging in ad hominim attacks?? Regards..

Note: Look, I don't want to create animosity, if I did so, I apologize.. I didn't mean to offend u or anyone... But the inaction on this issue has pushed me over the edge.. If we (or other editors that have shown and interest in this page) cannot engage in a constructive dialogue, I will definitely seek outside help.. Baristarim 23:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, as for the quotes, I have said nothing about them or their authors, I don't think that they are Greek nationalists nor do I think that the content of the quotes are incorrect, quite the contrary actually... I repeat again, I don't think that this issue is a who-is-better issue, it only gives me pleasure that such rich cultures have existed and continue to exist in our planet.. What I am SAYING, however, is the EXCESSIVE USE of such quotes by ANYONE about their country would be nationalistic behaviour, that's all. Pls don't try to portray me as a Greek-hater (culturally or individually)Baristarim 23:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

tourkika onomata[edit]

to tourkiko onoma den xreiazetai. kai an xreiazetai anikei sto keimeno tis istorias.

ase ta paidiarismata kai apanta.

Afto pou toso polu zitouses (kai oloi mas pistevo) exei ginei. an synexiseis tha allaksei... gi' auto, oso mporw, den tha se afisw na synexiseis. Clear enough? --Hectorian 17:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

gia thimise mou ti sou zitisa, giati me exete mperdepsei me allon. CRAZY SCIENTIST 17:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kaneis den se exei mperdepsei... dimiourgises afto to username otan to 'mywayyy' eixe faei ban. eixes pei loipon, pws oso den einai to elliniko onoma stin Poli, tha svineis ta tourkika. twra einai (kai pistepse me, oxi xaris esena...). den exeis logo gia reverts twra... lypamai, alla xanaskepsou to. --Hectorian 17:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

gia koita pote dimiourgithike to diko mou kai pote tou myway pou les. CRAZY SCIENTIST 17:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

den apantas se afto pou eipa... --Hectorian 17:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

den eimai o myway, to katalavaineis i exei proksenithei vlavi ston egkefalo sou? CRAZY SCIENTIST 17:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

pes o,ti thes... den tha ginei 'your way'... Proswpika, den yparxei periptwsi na riskarw to arthro gia tin Poli! --Hectorian 17:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

tin alitheia sou leo, s'aresei, de s'aresei. kai ti ennoeis na diakindineuseis to arthro gia ti poli? CRAZY SCIENTIST 18:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Variemai na exigw ta idia pragmata xana kai xana stous idious anthrwpous... Diavase to arthro pou sou eipe o Future Perfect at Sunrise, den ta talk kai tis history twn arthrwn kai vgale ta symberasmata sou... --Hectorian 18:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

tha mou eksigiseis? giati den eimai. an variesai na min epemvaineis allios katevase to teamspeak gia na milisoume me ixo kai xoris paparies. CRAZY SCIENTIST 18:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Πριγκηπονήσια[edit]

Hey man, could you do me a favor and add the Greek names to Sedef Adası, Halki (Turkish island), and Kınalıada? BTW, I noticed you conversation above, I laughed at the part where you said: " den tha ginei 'your way' ". :p —Khoikhoi 01:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Current Wikipedia convention is to use a few more "y"s in such cases though. :-D But apparently it wasn't actually himmm. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Daicos[edit]

Hello. I have noticed you have reverted Peter Daicos to Greek rather than Macedonian, without giving your reason why. It is my understanding that he is Macedonian. 1) He was known as the "Macedonian" not "Greek" marvel. 2) I have a Macedonian friend who has told me that "Daicos" is indeed a Macedonian name. 3) This link states that he is Macedonian [1]. If you do have proof that he is Greek, not Macedonian, please provide alink to it so this issue can be resolved. Please feel free to contact me and explain your reasons for reverting it. Cheers. Sliat 1981 12:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I have done a little research and I did find that his parents emmigrated from Banica which is in the FYROM [2]. There is a link here [3] that states that he came from a "Peter grew up in a typically patriotic Macedonian house hold in Melbourne" Having thought about it though, if you are right and he does have Grrek origins in him too, I see no harm in adding him to both Greek and Macedonian as well. If you look at a lot of artcles, you'll see that many people are of more than one nationality (eg, Nicloe Kidman is categorised asd Irish-Australian, Scottish-Australian, etc). I suppose if we want to be technical, he's not really Greek or Macedonian, he's Australian, lol. But it's up to you if you want to add him to Greek as well if you feel he has Greek origins. I personally have no arguement to it. Sliat 1981 22:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that post. I have gotten rid of it. I tried to edit it before you read it, but you beat me to it, lol. Please find the above one. I don't mean to claim Grrece are racist in the slightest. Sliat 1981 22:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually if you look in this link [4] in paragraph 10 it states the following, (The media were clamouring to find out more about this teenage prodigy. "Did he play soccer as a kid seeing as he was of a non-angloceltic background?" No. "Was he proud of his Greek background?" Hey! Just wait a minute there...I am MACEDONIAN....not Greek!") Sliat 1981 22:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC) I don't know if you're sure about his Greek origins because in that same paragraph, he also states he's from Macedonian origin and nothing else. Please read it and tell me what you think. Sliat 1981 22:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry too, but if that interview is true and he did say "I'm Macedonian not Greek" and thast is really how the nickname started, then it is surely appropriate to call him Macedonian. I can't confirm it as I was too youngf to remember. I do remember my Macedonian friends being very proud of him (the Collingwood supporters anyway!). Sliat 1981 23:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is an indication of some Greek origins in him, but remember Lou Richards is also there and you'd hardly think of him as Greek, but yet he has Greek origins FAR back. If you're angry with me, I don't understand. I did stae if that's the proof you needed, then you can add him to Greek as well. But my links do have a legitimate CLAIM (not, fact) to a Macedonian upbringing. If you want to add him to Greek, you can (please add your links there as well). But fore the moment don't remove him from Macedonian. Cheers Sliat 1981 23:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No I'm certainly not trying to hijack. AS you say, the link I posted may be biased. I'm not sure how old you are or if you have any friends that are older that could remember the interview when it happened. However, we can't just assume they're lying because they are American-Macedonian. For all we know, he may have said those words and we can't dismiss them as lies until we see proof that it did actually happen. He may (I'm not sure) have been accepted into the Greek team because realistically there is not enough players from Macedonian origin to make a Macedonian team of the century. I don't know really. Maybe he has maybe he hasn't, but the link I added is proof we should not remove him from the Macedonian link as of yet as it does make a claim. I'll agree it needs verification and I'm looking. The AFL awarded the Greek team of the century, yet it was the first link I sent you that stated he was Macedonian as does this one [5]. The AFL have obviously made a mistake somewhere as they're contradicting themselves. I'm not sure who is right honestly. But at the time there is not enough proof to 100% deny he was Macedonian. I have been looking and frankly I've found some really nasty articles from both sides debating his herritage. Personally I don't like it, but like you, I want to know what the truth is. I can't see this being settled until we find out from him personally. I'd say we continue searching for interviews from him that may say what nationality he is. It's really only him that can say if he's Macedonian or Greek, no-one else (unlike some forums who have been claiming). At the moments there are both points for Greek and Macedonian so I don't think either of us should remove him from Greek or Macedonian topics at the present time. I'll keep looking for the time being. Cheers Sliat 1981 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not remove him from the Macedonian links. I have not edited him from the Greek links. Your claims are just as legetimate as mine. Like I said these link s[6], [7] (wheither you think is biased or not) ARE legetimate claims (there is no proof it is not true). It is a legitimatable for being Macedonian, just like your claims of Greek are. You can't just use the Grrek team of the century link and claim mine is not legitimate. Unless you wish to remove your Greek claims, do not remove mine. Sliat 1981 00:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Like I was saying, your links is the AFL (which also claims he is Macedonian (see link above). You can not say that everything points to him being Greek simply because he was accepted in. You have no proof that the link is biased and it DOES (wheither you like it or not) lay a legetimate claim and therefore has as much right to claim him as Macedonian. No offence, but saying it's biased simply because Macedonians wrote it does seem racist. It was not written by forum people, but a proper sports writer. The link that preceds it does not and it claims he is Macedonian. This is enough to lay a claim as being Macedonian. It seems to me that you think only your links count. So far my link is the only one that gives a reason for the 'Macedonian Marvel' origin. Please do not revert them until you have proper proof. As for now leave him on both Greek and Macedonian links. Sliat 1981 00:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As from your FYRM link, that was obviously written by a Greek. I mean come on. No I will not quit as I have a legitimate claim to it as you do. Sliat 1981 00:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No-one's calling you a racist, but it does seem unfair that you claim it as biased, when that was ONE opinion from the FYRM website (which was most likely not written by a Macedonian). I have seen plenty of forums where that type of thing has happened eg, here [http://www.psynews.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t14330.html ]. You claim as him being accepted into the team because he was proud to be Greek. If he was so proud, you would think we would have been called the Greek marvel? Most Australians are more aware of Greece. So it seems to me perfectly legitimate article. It seem that you are being more close minded than me. The link IS a legetimate article. If it was from a forum of Greek or Macedonian then I'd claim it as not reliable enough. This was from a person who made a collingwood website. I have this book called The Complete Guide To Australian Football by Ken Piesses 1993. And on page 75 he is quoted as "so many people thought I was Greek and had a soccer background. It came to a surprise that I was not only Macedonian, but football was always a big part in my life". I have not referenced it as I can not show the book here. You can revert as much as you like. Being in that the next 24 hours you will revert it next, then me, it seems like you will be the first to the 3 revert rule and mine will be the one that stays. You told me yourself that forums should not count. And simply being accepted into a Greek team in NOT justafiable enough to claim he was EXCLUSIVELY Macedonian. I have accepoted the fact that he MAY have been, but as my link proves, he has a legetimate claim to being Macedonian too. Sliat 1981 00:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have claimed why not being named in the Greek team is not legitimate enough to claim him as Greek. Australians have represented Britain in eurovision. Israel which is nowhere near europe is in there. Gavin Waggadeen is concidered an Aboriginal, despite the fact that his mother is 100% white. Lou Richards MOTHER is Greek, not his father, yet he is allowed in the team. There are no Macedonian team of the centruy and Daicos may have felt left out if he wasn't included. Also when he was younger, he would have been likely to deny being called Greek (so why I believe that interview is true), but as he is much older and mature now that he's is been accepted into the Greek team, he feels less sensitive about it. It just seems like you think my link is rubbish and therefore removing him from Macedonian links as you don't think it's legitimate enough. I don't think yours are rubbish, but I don't think they're legitimate enough, but I don't remove him from Greek links as I think there are clkaims for both. It just seems that you've got it in your head and that greek and that's it, where I'm concerned about the truth and won't refer to as exclusively Greek or Macedonian for the moment. You say that I can not claim until I have more proof. I think you don't have enough evidence to claim and that's why I think you should leave him on both before you get more confirmation. I think you should keep looking and find more evidence. I am also looking for evidence for him being Greek, not just Macedonian to find a legitimate claim. So far I have found nothing (except the so called biased link) to claim either side. Therefore I think he should be classified as both. For now... Sliat 1981 00:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did not call you a racist, I simply said assuming something written by a Macedonian is biased, SEEMS racist. Sliat 1981 01:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did give you references. You just didn't want to accept them. And it's no more calling you racist than you claim those papers were. You're practically calling them racists. You can revert as much as you like. I will always revert them back. SOME Greek origins does not make you 100% Greek by the way. You have not shown one link that has claimed that he was nominated because he was Greek. I have notified collingwood football club and are awaitning their response. Until then, I see no further point in debating it with you, because you're obviously set in your ways. I'll just keep reverting until I get a responce. Sliat 1981 01:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did recogise my mistaske by putting him off Greek Australians. You will notice I have not removed him since. But like I said, I really don't want to discuss it at the moment. I'm just going to get a responce from Collingwood and keep searching the net. There has to be a place where his heritage is clearly stated. Until then as far as I'm concerned, nothing's certain.Sliat 1981 01:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trabzon[edit]

Personally, I think the English names should be bolded and not the Greek ones, because this English Wikipedia. "Trebizond" is the most common former name, I guess it's sorta like "Constantinople" or "Smyrna", right? —Khoikhoi 01:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, sounds good to me. —Khoikhoi 01:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I added some information about the islands of Lake Eğirdir. Do you know anything about them? Apparently Yeşilada (meaning "Green Island", formerly known as Nis) was home to a Greek community that lived in stone and timber houses until 1923. Is "Nis" the Greek name?

Also, the article says that the former Greek name for the lake is Akrotiri. How do you say that in Greeek? —Khoikhoi 01:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you might be interested. BTW, to show you my impressive knowledge of Greek, ~~"Ayastefanos"~~ "Aghios Stephanos" means "Saint Stephen", right? :D I know this because of the Yeşilköy article. Also according to the Stephen article the English word originally comes from the Greek one. —Khoikhoi 02:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arrrghhhh, so close.. :p —Khoikhoi 02:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Efxaristome Hectorian. Afto User:Shaitan Al Mahdi ennie trello. Degzero ti theli. Chaldean 02:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this is my favorite quote of ALL TIME; "Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks." Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom - but I always thought it was "Warriors" instead of Heroes Chaldean 02:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

E-mail[edit]

Su eho stili duo e-mail. --Telex 12:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Get on gmail. :) —Khoikhoi 18:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source[edit]

Ok, you are right, sorry... Baristarim 21:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, promise.. Otherwise I hope that u r having a nice weekend.cheers.. Baristarim 21:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey[edit]

Get on gmail (again). —Khoikhoi 07:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Xairete. Min me pareksigeis alla den skopeuo na xariso kastana stous tourkous edo pera. Einai os epi to pleiston amorfotoi trampoukoi me ethnikes anasfaleies. Ta perissotera arthra grammena apo tourkous einai pragmatika akros ntropiastika gia tin wikipedia, kai to POV tous ksepernaei kathe orio, me apokoryfoma tin metonomasia tis proteuousas tis Othomanikis autokratorias apo Konstantinoupoli se Istanbul (koita tis malakies grammenes sto proto). O monos logos gia ton opoion ta geleia arhtra tous paramenoun anepafa, einai oti kanenas den deixnei to paramikro endiaferon gia ton aksesto lao tous. Den prokeitai na afiso auton ton pseutokritiko na grapsei to makri tou kai to konto tou gia tin Kriti. Miskin 11:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Greece[edit]

Ανέλαβα την πρωτοβουλία για τη δημιουργία του ως άνω project! Στη σελίδα διαλόγου του project (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History of Greece) θα δεις τι έχει προταθεί και τι έχει γίνει ως τώρα.
Έχοντας εντοπίσει το ενδιαφέρον σου για θέματα ιστορίας και σκέφτηκα ότι μπορεί να ενδιαφέρεσαι να συμμετάσχεις και να συνεισφέρεις. Οποιαδήποτε συνεισφορά, οπώς και η ενημέρωση άλλων χρηστών για το project ή προτάσεις είναι άκρως επιθυμητές. Προσδοκώ στη βοήθειά σου, όποτε θα σου είναι δυνατό.
Χαιρετίσματα!--Yannismarou 16:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Υ.Γ.: Μη μου πεις και εσύ ότι my greek seems very robotic. Έχω στείλει τόσα ενημερωτικά μηνύματα που είναι αναπόφευκτο!--Yannismarou 16:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL[edit]

Ida afto pu les edo ke yelasa - tus lipame tus Skopyanus, xeris. Des ke to Accession of the Republic of Macedonia to the European Union - den ine mono i Ellas pu bori na min dhehti tin endaxi tis FYROM stin EE, alla ke i Vulgaria. --Telex 13:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Episis, des to arthro Alexander Donski, dhyavase to olo, ke dhose idhieteri prosohi stin ikona ;-) --Telex 13:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Des e-mail. --Telex 14:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian ...[edit]

Ouuff. That was quite a piece of work you made me do today. Please see Talk:Ancient Macedonian language. Sorry for somehow losing my temper yesterday. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aussie Grix[edit]

File:Ac.adamattemple.jpg

Me at the Temple of Olympian Zeus

Indeed they do, there is an active Constantinopolitan society here. Thanks for correcting my Greek. Adam 09:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just fishin...[edit]

...Like the bait? -> Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Greece#Members •NikoSilver• 21:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Γιατί δεν θέλεις να μετονομάσουμε τους Τουρκοκρήτες σε Μουσουλμάνους Κρήτες (που τυγχάνει να είναι και η σωστή αγγλική ονομασία)? Επειδή υπάρχει ένας φαντασμένος Τούρκος που έχει πιστέψει κατά γράμμα αυτά που του είπαν στο σχολείο? Εμένα δεν με πείθει ως λόγος όσο και να προσπαθώ. Βλέπεις τι προβλήματα υπάρχουν τώρα, ο κάθε τυχαίος αναγνώστης νομίζει πως η Κρήτη ήταν μία πολυεθνική περιοχή σαν τη Μακεδονία που απλά έτυχε να πέσει στα χέρια της Ελλάδας. Δεν μπορεί να χωνέψει πως πρόκειται περί απελευθέρωσης και Ένωσης. Σε λίγο οι Φράγκοι θα μας πουν ότι η Ελλάδα δεν απελευθερώθηκε το 1929, απλά άλλαξε από Τούρκικο σε Φαναριώτικο ζυγό. Miskin 01:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Turkish name for it is "İstanbul Rum Ortodoks Patriği" ("Greek Orthodox Patriarch of İstanbul"), and not "Konstantinopolis Rum Ortodoks Patriği". Therefore, it makes some sense. I guess he just figured that if the city today is called İstanbul, and that's what he calls it as well, then he must be right. :) —Khoikhoi 02:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hectorian, I was being sarcastic—of course he's wrong! —Khoikhoi 02:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Syggnomi pou epeimeno toso alla me exei eknevrisei o kserolas. Miskin 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oxi den asxoloumai me auto asxoloume me tous tourkokrites. Kapoios metakinise ton patriarxi tis Konstantinoupoleos se Patriarxi tou Istanbul ki ego to epanefera, auto itan olo, meta oute pou koitaksa ti ekane o allos. Katarxin ta 'tourkoi' kai kata synepeia kai 'tourkokrites' opos ta xrisimopoiousan tote oi romioi den eixe kamia sxesi me to pos ta antilambanomaste tora, toutestin tourkos tote simaine apla mousoulmanos opos kai tha gnorizeis. Epeidi omos tora pia exei efeurethei kai to ethnos ton tourkon, dimiourgeitai mia sygxisi, i opoia exei os apotelesma kapoious san ton cretanforever na milane gia "turkic tribes stin crete" kai istories gia agrious. Etsi merikoi san ton khoikhoi katalabainoun alla ant'allon. Proteino to arthro na metonomastei se "Cretan Muslims" kai na ginoun anafores mesa se olous tous mousoulmanous krites, tourkous, syrious klp, klp. Miskin 02:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. —Khoikhoi 02:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greeks in Romania[edit]

Hectorian, I don't know and don't care what your opinions on ethnicity are. Note, however, that if we are to rely on self-definition (which we ought to), those people who left Greece chose not to define themselves as "ethnic Greeks". I have no interest in the debate you may be engaged in with others, but please don't drag it on pages where you would actually have little to contribute. Have a nice day. Dahn 11:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your answer is pure sophistry. Dahn 11:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me point out the ways: the articles in question are about the subject of an ethnicity (they do not redirect to Greeks); that means that it is at least reasonably supported and advocated that those people are a different ethnicity, and your objections and the views you support belong in there (this is the solution I have called for in solving the Moldovans situation, where Romanian claims are, IMO, at any moment more rational than the popular Greek view of Aromanians). Furthermore, what you and other supporters of this view want to say is not that they are Greeks, but something translatable as "of Greek ancestry" (not enough to disallow the use of "non-ethnic Greeks" as an adjective); because, if thousands of years of speaking a language different from Greek still allow a group to be as ethnic Greek as any guy in Athens, then we should merge Dacians and Romanians, Jews and Arabs, and, hell, human and monkey. Now, I'm not saying that your views are dismissable, but that you are highlighting their concusions to an un-scientific level, and that, at least, the very existence of the articles indicates that we are, generally speaking, not addressing a "Greek topic" (see again my parallel with Moldovans). Personally, I resent the Greek wish to turn them into Greeks as much as I resent the Romanian wish of turning them into Romanians.

This was to further explain the accuracy of the adjective. As to the need for it: I think it is dead relevant in an article otherwise about ethnic Greeks. Furthermore, an article about "Aromanians in Romania" would be highly redundant and fragile in content (at least for now).

On another topic: I would really like to know how you came up with the notion that Romania was a dictatorship in 1913?! I would also like to know what warrants you to say that "since people made a choice under x conditions, we are to assume that they would have made y choice under any other", especially since these people remained in Romania and did not protest against it after the conditions changed. As I have said, don't drag POV info on other pages, and confine the debate to those articles: yours is a minority viewpoint. Dahn 11:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hectorian, as I have said, the articles on Aromanians et al should deal with both the claim that they are a distinct ethnic group and various claims that they are, in fact, Greeks or Romanians (in case you're wondering, I do not hold the latter view). That is to say that links to Aromanians should address this issue foremost: most of the Aromanians in Romania (virtually all, I guess) would reject the notion that they are Greeks, and so would many living in other areas of the world. Not getting in there the mention that they are distinct would imply that they form a part of Greekdom, and that would be really POV (especially concerning Aromanians in Romania). It is extremely complicated to reconcile and accurately present various claims about "what makes on an ethnic something", but as, as long as the topic revolves around both a distinct language (with or without bilingualism) and the guiding belief held by some to most Aromanians that they are not Greeks (which, you will note, is the reason we have an article in the first place), the link between Aromanians and Greeks, contested or not, supported or not, is to be referenced in the article, and not someplace else (as we have learned to do for Moldovans). To bottom-line this, I have to state that both the article and mentions in N other places relate primordially to those people who do not consider themselves Greeks (again, the parallel with Moldovans).

On the other issue: disregarding the fact that Aromanians started to and were encouraged to migrate to Dobruja etc in 1913 (with many present earlier), Romania in 1925 was not a dictatorship either (look it up). Dahn 15:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As it is, the current "see also" sends users to articles on communities who have partly immigrated to Romania (I did not want to imply that all of them did, and I'm not sure how one would come to such a conclusion); as for the "majority in Greece", I don't know if one can safely say that they have magically become Greek by default (again, not because being Greek would not be a popular self-definition, but because we may never know how popular, and because we have no monoploy on separating categories). Also: since I don't plan on intervening on disputes dealing with Aromanians, Vlachs, and Megleno-Romanians, I ask of you to please ensure that all points of view are equally presented and referenced there (as you indicate is your actual goal). Let me know if adding this after "see also" in "Greeks in Romania" article satisfies your views: Ethnic groups in Greece who were subject to immigration in Romania (I suppose "subject to" clarifies that not all of people were involved, and "ethnic groups" does not mutilate views on Aromanians et al being "subgroups of Greekdom").

As a sidenote: if you worry about opinons having been obscured by communism in Romania, let me remind you that, even if you place the starting point in 1925, you still have 22 years of various regimes to cover before communism. Of these, most were indeed dictatorial; but allow me to point out that Aromanians tended to be notorious pan-Romanian fascists (including many Aromanians in Greece-proper), and supported those dictatorships to the point where they joined the anti-communist resistance in Duobruja with the declared goal of reinstating them (not to mention that Romania's communist past ended in 1989, not to mention that the voices freely raised by Aromanians in Romania either stand by the Aromanians=Romanians notion, or simply reject the notion that Aromanians are either Romanians or Greeks). If you got the date right about 1925, then we are not only talking about a perfectly democratic system in Romania (with some kinks which would add no particular relevancy here), but also about a king other than Carol; if the date is, say, 1935, you still have some distance to travel until the 1937 establishment of the first (and most benign) of three dictatorships. If Greece itself was not a dictatorship, then, I'm sorry to say, the original argument you made on this topic makes little sense. Furthermore, we all know that the issue of Greek pressure on its ethnic minorities has been brought up, and that the estimates for overshadow Ceauşescu's measures against the Hungarians in both consistency and tradition (this is also in answer to the "majority left behind as ethnic Greeks" argument). Looking forward to a reply. Dahn 16:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for not replying sooner (there were pressing matters I had postponed for a while). It's good that we can compromise, and, again, I have to ask that this spirit prevail on the pages themselves. My point about government pressure in Greece mostly referred to the past: after all, we can all agree with the fact that it did have some consequences today, although I would agree with you that what should matter is the way people define themselves at the moment (although I do believe that one can still find, without much difficulty, Aromanians who reject the Greek label in Greece itself, all over the Balkans, and in Romania first and foremost). Btw, mine would not be a Romanian POV, since the textbook Romanian POV would imply that I go on those pages and write down stuff like "Aromanians is Romanians", as some Romanian contributors feel the urge to do ;). No, I have to say I aim to stand for neutrality and consistency.

The main reason for my Greece-Romania comparison was pointing out that, if you suspect Aromanians here of having been pressured into not calling themselves Greeks (although, again, they did have quite a lot of time to change their mind), then the very same would go for Aromanians in Greece having been pressured to call themselves Greeks. In the worst case, Romania has a similar record to Greece over many decades; at best, it was generally better for the moments we were comparing. Surely, Romania hads had its autocracy et al (and you may have noticed I don't shy away from exposing them), but in 1925-1930 we just happened to be at a peak in democracy. In 1913, the seminal moment of Romanian-on-Aromanian discourse, Romania was the most democratic state in the region (its many faults at the time do not really fall within the scope of this topic). Romania has done two questionable things which have added to the debate nowadays: it has identified Aromanians with Romanians (in a theoretical debate, even that would be plausible, but I don't hold that opinion myself), which, you should know, was then and has been since a claim widely popular with Aromanians themselves (some? many? I guess it depends on the documats and scale you use); it has offered them land in Dobruja (if offensive, it was so to the Bulgarians, who lost an entire province for some Romanians to fulfill an imperial dream) - now, and I guess your mention of Greek policies in the past would confirm this, I believe that the enthusiasm the offer received was also largely due to the fact that an Aromanian's fate in 1913 Greece would not have been peachy. Look at this in its context: even though you mention bilingualism, you have to admit that taxing a person for using a language other than Greek is a totalitarian action, as is closing down non-Greek schools (I do not want to get in the details of it, but we both know these were Greek policies). To the Romanian parallel: my country has been a bitch with minorities (in the case of Jews, this is an understatement); however, my country did not guide itself on a version of Megali Idea for as long as Greece has, and the policies of manifest ethnic cleansing have been on and off (if extremely violent at times). In a sense, I guess it is because Romanian nationalism initially felt more secure, and Greater Romania was a time of arrogance (unlike Greece, Romania fulfilled its irredentism by 1918, and spent the decades between 1940 and 1989 - with a break in 1945-1956 - either taking it back on minorities as scapegoats for having its "destiny overturned" or other such nonsense, or making sure that Romania in its constricted borders would "not be challenged" itself; this is the reason behind both the Holocaust in Romania and the anti-Hungarian policies of Ceauşescu). Dahn 21:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, and sorry for not having replied sooner.

I'm not sure we trully disagree on democracy-vs.-dictatorship in the 1920s-1930s, but Romania was, IMO, as democratic as Belgium or Denmark at the time (not as democratic as Switzerland or Czechoslovakia, but certainly not as dictatorial as even Poland); the main reason for this rating is, I guess, the fact that the king had the privilege to name the government-forming party from those in parliament (Ferdinand used this to appoint Ionel Bratianu ad nauseam, but he would not have done it and din not do it when he knew that the cabinet had no chance of whitstanding a vote in parliament). As you may see, although this was below today's standard, it would not be considered authoritarian presently, and still made Romania be, for as much as she could keep this statu quo going, the exception in the area. (The mention about Bulgaria was purley conjectural: in the Dobrujan matter, Romania just seized a chance to kid the kidder, except that the kidder had not done anything toward Romania).

I believe you on the matter of Aromanian schools being in fact Romanian (and I suspected it all allong), but one would have to wonder why people where attending them and why they had to be closed down even in that instance (my guess is that the Greek state prevented its citizens from making a choice, and that the different choice would have been at least more popular than it is today). I see the problem in conection to Turks and "Slavophones" and Albanians: Greece has done a lot to whipe out uncomfortable identities one way or the other. I did not want to imply that the law about language referred to Aromanians specifically, but it did refer to Aromanians as well. Romania's presence to incite people like Alcibiade Diamandi has surely been disruptive, but two wrongs do not make a right. I don't think it is safe to say "those Aromanians who viewd themselves as etc. immigrated to Romania", leaving the country of origin peopled by Aromanian Greeks - it is the effect today, apparently (although I have my reservations about it being as universal as you imply - surely, even in the referendum for minority status, some people might have voted against...), but it is never that easy (if we know that Greece was advocating ethnic cleansing, then we surely have at least one instance where this was applied!). Not to mention that, of those Aromanians that immigrated, many to most were forcefully expelled.

My comment on the "Magali Idea" referred not to its good or bad nature (which would be a simplistic remark for me to make), but to the fact that it is the source of many negative things Greek recent history, and, in context, to the fact that it was more a raison d'etre for Greece than similar ideas were to Romania (until 1940, that is). Furthermore, it has indicated the exact manner in which the Greek nation relates to others: when they fall withinn the sphere of a future gigantic state in which, by all accounts, Greeks would be a minority, other ethnicities don't exist (they are not present or the Greek state will make sure they have a safe trip to disappearence, or they are Greeks who have forgotten they are Greeks - just as Ukrainians were Romanians who have forgetten they are Romanians in Antonescu's Transnistria). I'm sorry, but I cannot condone such arguments, wherever they may arise. This is why I call for care in editing articles related to this topic (I cannot bear looking into it, and losing days of pretious sleep as I did finding an acceptable version for Moldovans...). Cheers. Dahn 12:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GBS and Greek[edit]

You quote George Bernard Shaw's "nobody can say a word against Greek: it stamps a man at once as an educated gentleman". I am sure that you understand this quote in its context in Major Barbara, but your reader might not realize that he was actually ridiculing the role of Greek in the British class system, as a later quote from the same play makes clear (spoken by the person that the first quote is talking about):

Let me advise you to study Greek, Mr Undershaft. Greek scholars are privileged men. Few of them know Greek; and none of them know anything else; but their position is unchallengeable. Other languages are the qualifications of waiters and commercial travellers: Greek is to a man of position what the hallmark is to silver.

That makes it much clearer, doesn't it? --Macrakis 13:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Patriarchate[edit]

Regarding the discussions on İstanbul/Constantinople and Patriarch (Ecumenic or not); The name "Konstantinople" in AEK and PAOK is using as adjective which represent Ancient/historical name. But "Constantinople" in "Patriarch of Constantinople" and other smilar places ; is using a current city name which has no a city with this name.This is an onesided and improper attempt to change the name of a Turkish city. The name of that city in all languages of the world is "İstanbul". We/you can use "Constantinople" in all related/similar articles with a remarks "Ancient/historical name". Regards. Mustafa Akalp 13:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heybeli Ada/Chalki[edit]

(Also posted to User talk:Mustafa Akalp and WP:RM) A total confusion emerged over Chalki and Heybeli Ada created, I guess, by User:Mustafa Akalp. I (ultimately) fixed it, including single and double redirects, except that Chalki and Chalki (Greek island) are now forks; the latter should be redirected. I don't hold any position on correct naming, except that (obviously) Heybeli Ada and Chalki are distinct islands, so I moved them to those respective articles. Take it on from here please. Duja 12:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edit on Name[edit]

Very nice, concise edit. Nauplion 16:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey[edit]

Dear Greek person The article on Turkey is not your domain. In fact, it is not even your expertise. Please do not revert legitimate changes there with your personal hang ups without proper procedures and basis. Your interpretation of "sourced information" is incorrect and there is no basis for a reversal. Turkey is NOT a "muslim or Islamic country". It is a secular democratic country. There is no other secular "Muslim" country. There is no reference to its religion in its legal structuring. The link in the paragraph which does not support the preceding sentence or the paragraph as well as the terminology such as Hijab (not a turkish term) as a very narrow concept are editable, and therefore, your interference does neither make sense nor is welcome. I kindly request you to exercise your restless skills in areas you know best in your culture, or on other borrowed Turkish contributions to your gastronomy such as Tatsiki, baklava, imambayildi and gyro kebap.

Thanks[edit]

Kalinita (sorry for spelling it wrong) I would just like to thank you for your cheerful message. Ozgur Gerilla 00:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"m:Don't be a dick"? :) —Khoikhoi 01:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Patriarch[edit]

Hmm, point well taken.. You do have a point about the fact that the Turkish state does in fact, contrary to what would be expected from a secular country, supports religious schools and mosques... Well secularity in Turkey is not seperation of church and state but control of the church (mosque, whatever) by the state.. The first type of secularism is anglo-saxon, the second one is the revolutinary French laicité.. But I definitely agree with the fact that TR state, against my hopes and wishes, contributes way too much to supporting religious institutions and particularly (only? :))) Sunni ones... I hope that the Halki school opens one day, it is only fair... Baristarim 02:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Erdogan, eh?? :))) Well, don't even get me started on him!!! :)) In Turkey we can never seem to find the middle way, it is always the extremes, one way or the other.. The hot mediterranean blood I imagine... :))Baristarim 02:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

European Union and FYROM[edit]

The way the sentence is now makes no logical sense. It literally says : The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia(FYROM) has been given official candidate status as of December 2005 under the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"

If you keep it as Republic of Macedonia (as the wiki article is called), the sentence makes more logical sense since it would state the EU is using a certain name for the country known as Macedonia. And to repeat again, the sentence right now makes no logical sense and FYROM should be changed to something that is not the same as Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Gdo01 23:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey![edit]

Would you like to help out on the Aromanian Wikipedia? ;-) —Khoi khoi 01:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like Latinus can, however. I never knew he was Aromanian. I'm not really sure either, you should probably ask Eeamoscopolecrushuva (talk · contribs). BTW, was Mother Teresa Aromanian as well? I thought she was Albanian, but Eeamo made these changes to the article, while she is still mentioned on the Albanians page.

Also, you're the 100th message on my talk page, which means that it's time to archive again... —Khoi khoi 01:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

15. :) —Khoi khoi 01:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit to Heracles[edit]

Hectorian, even if you disagree with the category assignments on Alexander the Great, that is hardly a reason to remove the category from Heracles. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Koita...[edit]

...kai psakse:

[8]

A!, kai enas 'achiles', ;exei maz;epsei poly prama:

[9]

•NikoSilver• 10:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please be more careful[edit]

Hi, Hectorian! No offense, but on 7 September 2006 at 07:44 you removed part of Tsargrad with the following comment: rm more than half paragraph: no citation has been added (though asked) and nothing justifies that the slavs called the sultans as 'tsars'!. Please notice, that at the time you made this removal the discussion page of the same artucle already contained three citations awaiting for comments from you — it wasn't even clear whether you had doubts about the meaning of 'tsar' or you required citation for something else. This was not polite behaviour... --Zinoviev 15:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, for your answer at my discussion page. I never thought that you could do intentionaly something bad - otherwise I wouldn't even dare to bother you. :-) I edited the article as you suggested. Please see if everything is OK now. BTW, I read the article for 'tsar' in the Serbian Wikipedia and noticed that in Serbian the word 'tsar' doesn't have such a broad meaning as in Bulgarian and Russian. --Zinoviev 08:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Answering your question and giving my point of view/opinion.[edit]

You wrote: "cause it comes from the medieval manuscript (who could be offensed by that?!))"

Hectorian, I believe that because that the words "educated Persian" in quotes implies that the writer was being sarcastic....that he/she does not believe that the Persian was an educated person.

If the manuscript does indeed indicated that the Persian was educated, then fine. But the quotes need to go. I believe that that this is a necessary change to keep this article objective.

If you disagree with my opinion, think of it from this angle. I read this and immediately deem it to be bias. I would think it impossible to believe that I’m the only one to believe this, even though it may in fact not be bias. However, being that some may agree or disagree with either or us is grounds in itself to remove the quotes in order to avoid any appearance of bias. It’s the safe road to travel.

Sincerely and respectfully, Sideshow Todd

P.S.[edit]

If you would, sir -should you agree with me- do the honer of reverting it back.

-Sideshow Todd-

Phges[edit]

Xwse oti nomizeis. Fevgw, 8a dw meta... •NikoSilver• 13:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TRNC[edit]

I do not like the attitude of a lot (not all) of Greeks and Greek Cypriots on this issue especially surrounding the referendum - they like many Cuban exiles seem to enjoy spouting the bile-filled fantasy that they can kick the post-1974 Turks out and can wind things back - it's over a generation since 1974 and like the Cubans exiled since 1959 they have no chance of anything if they continue to cling to fantasy and not recognise reality.

I have spent nearly five years here fighting POV fanatics - aside from Marxists the worst are nationalist fanatics such as Poles (on issues such as Danzig and the Oder-Neisse line) and Greeks (and indeed many Turks) (on issues such as Cyprus, Turkish War of Independence and the nationalist monstrosity that was the Megali Idea). You can forgive for being more than a little cynical and soured. PMA 11:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nestorius[edit]

Hi. Surely Nestorius was Archbishop of Constantinople, the Patriarchate not being established until Chalcedon in 451. Even John Chrysostom is properly referred to as Archbishop of Constantinople in Byzantine liturgical texts. Would you please be so kind as to explain the reasoning behind your edit? efharisto polli! --InfernoXV 18:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't find your argument convincing. Historians do not refer to Juvenal of Jerusalem before 422 as Patriarch of Jerusalem, referring to him as Bishop of Jerusalem before that date, and to all of his predecessors as Bishop of Jerusalem (after 325 at least). Scholars of Byzantium are very careful not to refer to any Archbishops of Constantinople before 451 as Patriarch. Even the Orthodox liturgy calls St John Chrysostom 'Archbishop of Constantinople'. The article on St John Chrysostom never calls him 'Patriarch'either. Rome is possibly not the best example - we both know Rome does funny and silly things all the time. I'd draw your attention to the articles on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. That series is very careful not to call anyone before 422 'Patriarch of Jerusalem'. --InfernoXV 19:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Γενοκτονία των Ελλήνων του Πόντου[edit]

There's no rule that says "to have a dispute they have to contradict things with sources". Sources help their argument, but when they dispute it, outline their reasons on the talk page, the proper way to get the tag removed is compromise... —Khoi khoi 20:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Go right ahead.... —Khoi khoi 21:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tetarti[edit]

To magalytero meros tis Tetartis stavroforias to exo grapsei o idios kai nomizo pos mporeis na mou exeis empistosyni sto oti den periexei POV kata ton Ellinon. O Alexios o B' eixe symaxisei me ton Saladin kata ti diarkeia tis deuteris stavroforias, kai gia pollous kai diaforous logous oi Ellines itan tote kata ton stavroforon. Kata deuteron, koitaksa tis proalles tin pigi tou Cretanforever kai de grafei tipota ap'auta pou mas tsampounaei peri 160K tourkon enanti 120K ellinon stin Kriti tou 19ou aiona. Antithetos auti i pigi, opos kai oles oi dikes mou, ypostirizoun tin analogia 30K-300K. Koinos autos o typos nomizei oti trome koutoxorto kai opos katalabaineis tou ta afairesa ola. Protino na metonomasoume to arthro, kai na baloume tous tourkokrites os mia paragrafo tou. Miskin 20:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of the sources? I doubt Miskin read all of them as neither he you know knows Turkish. It's never good to do full reverts - what specific sources don't say what the article claims?? —Khoi khoi 21:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently you didn't even read my edits. The source he claimed was an English one. Plus you can't know what we speak or don't speak. Miskin 22:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Molis brika ontos se mia pigi na ypostirizei oti ypirxe megali mousoulmaniki meionotita stis arxes tou 19ou aiona kai meiothike stis 30,000 meta tin epanastasi. O Cretanforever omos to exei diastrevlosei auto kai to parousiazei pos oloi autoi itan Tourkoi, eno i pigi dieukrinizei oti itan Ellines mousoulmanoi kai kryfoi xristianoi pou epanilthan sto xristianismo. Ekana tis katalliles diorthoseis tonizontas oti den eprokoito peri tourkon mexri to 1924. Auto einai enas logos parapano na metonomastei to arthro pou tous elege olous Tourkous. Miskin 11:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly. All he had to do was change that one part of the article..instead he reverted all of Cretanforever's work without showing any sign of shame. —Khoi khoi 15:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He was the one who reverted my edits altogether, despite my sourcing. I restored parts of his edits that did actually have a source (which I discovered myself), added tags to the ones that didn't, and removed what was pure original research or weasel text. The article still needs work. Miskin 17:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kathomai kai brisko piges gia ta edits ton tourkon kai autos akoma mou ti mpainei. Allakse pali to onoma kai gia kapoion logo de ksanapigainei ekei to arthro, ksereis ti ginetai se autes tis periptoseis? Miskin 17:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bariemai[edit]

...kai den exw kai ypno. Skeftesai tipota na kanw? •NikoSilver• 22:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WOW!

	PATA	TO 1o	KOYMPI
POY	PROSTE8HKE	STH MPARA	PANW APO
TO	EDIT	WINDOW!	•NikoSilver•
PS	EPITELOUS!	DEN	PAIZETAI!

Ean sou dothei i efkeria des Cyprus Refugees kai afto Talk:Cyprus Refugees. S'efxaristo Aristovoul0s 22:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for revert[edit]

Hey, Thanks for the revert in Alexander the great. Just wanted to let you know that I reverted to the wrong revision, I didnt put down all the vandalisms on purpose. Thanks - Marky (Wikiman123321) 12:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE: Hehe yeah, Friends is great. And if it's being continually edited I think maybe we should lock it for a while... ~~

License tagging for Image:Flag of the Republic of Pontus (1917-1919).gif[edit]

Thanks for uploading Image:Flag of the Republic of Pontus (1917-1919).gif. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 17:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Pos sou fainetai i lysi na kopsoume to arthro sta dyo, ena arthro gia tourkokrites ki ena gia tourkomousoulmanous? Miskin 23:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish Republic of Western Thrace[edit]

Dear Hectorian,

There is an article as "Gumuljine Republic". as you see in new article "Turkish Republic of Western Thrace", I transferred all content from "Gumuljine Republic" article. (categries, stubs etc. all of them). "Gumuljine Republic" is a dummy/artificial name. A republic wlth this name never took a palce in history. I will take back this merging/discuss remark back with assuming that you will ve judicious. Much regards and Selam from Istanbul. Mustafa Akalp 17:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Big sorry Hectorian, really big sorry. There is mis understanding. Lets delete "Gumuljine Republic" and "Gumuljine" (redirect to firt one). I thought your offer. After transferring(pasting) of all content to new page I thought about to make empty this article and to make an offer for deletion first two article.But I saw some records in history page and I kept then as they are. For my info; Is it possible to make empty and delete an article but transferring discuss and history page to new related page, How?

Much regards and Kaliniktasas.

Mustafa Akalp 17:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Convention on naming Turkish-Greek places;[edit]

Convention on naming Turkish-Greek places; There is a huge discussion. Some users offers logical solutions but many of others offers fanatic oppinions. I offered also to Barıstarım and Khoikhoi that; Lets establish a commission (not more than 7 people)with Equal number of Greek and Turkish users(can be voting among users).this commission delegate another neutral user as chairman/chief/reconciler . Commission make an agenda and puts the principles of naming(in title, in first line, and in the article),putting links,kategories etc. These rules and regulations are announced in a main template page and all related articles linked to that page as a guide. All further debates among users(especially newcomers) are solved by this commission. Kalinikta. Mustafa Akalp 18:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, how is it going? So what do you think about Mustafa Akalp's proposal about Greek/Turkish nameplaces proposal? I also think that it is a good idea.. As for TR Western Thrace, I haven't been following exactly what has been happening, so did you suggest that G. Republic have its contents moved to that article and a redirect put? Cheers! Baristarim 00:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, that's true, I also checked it.. Personally, it was the first time I had heard either of those names. Only if there were a way to verify the name by which this country was officially recognized, but it is so old that back than there was no UN, not even the League of Nations! On the other hand, it also seems to me that its official name was Gumuljine Republic.. I will ask Mustafa about it.. As for the commission, I have no idea either!! :) I will have to put some thought to it and ask some other editors their thoughts.. Baristarim 14:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Question[edit]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if images from FOTW are allowed on Wikipedia. See Template:FOTWpic, Template talk:FOTWpic, Category:FOTW images, and Category talk:FOTW images for more details. You might try asking a user like Zscout370, however. —Khoi khoi 05:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue I - September 2006[edit]

The September 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 07:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Question on 'Greek Diaspora' wiki[edit]

Hi Hectorian, I'm sending you this b/c I see you have a number of posts on the 'greek diaspora' wiki and thought perhaps you were the proper 'neutral editor' to contact in a request for an addition. Below, is the post I have made on the 'greek diaspora' talk page.

Oh and also, good luck with 'WikiProject History of Greece', any historical info you need from dailyfrappe, just let me know.

Hello, I would like to offer a greek diaspora website to be considered for inclusion as an external link. The website is dailyfrappe.com and it is a non-commercial website devoted to informing the greek diaspora community about their homeland and it's current political and social climate and how it effects them. This includes conducting interviews with greek diasporans and discussing an oral history of their lives. I believe a review of the website will confirm that is inline with #5 of the code for 'What should be linked to' on wiki's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links)

Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as professional athlete statistics, screen credits, interviews, or online textbooks.

Thank you, I ask that you take this edit under consideration for the furthering of the greek diasporan community and in an effort to better inform ourselves of our greek heritage and connect that to the Greece of today.

Thank you, vasigus

DailyFrappe.com Connects millions of people of Greek descent back to their homeland and each other

Reply[edit]

Hi. I felt that I had to reply to one of your posts earlier that I just ran into.. I know that there are people in turkey who say that sumerians etc were originally turkish.. But you see that's where u r mistaken:it was not kemal that told them so.. Find me one example or speech where he says so.. There were many nationalists back then and still are.. The same goes for kemalism.. I have the impression that you misunderstood what it is, it is much more a revolutionary ideal - it focused much more on democracy and secularism than anything else.. And please let's avoid anachronisms by judging the people that lived 100 years ago with the standards of today, what is important is what he was at his era.. I am sure that in his age most of Greek politicians said things like greece for greeks. In any case, I am also really offended by this comparison with North Korea.. kemal's ideas about secularism and modernity are still valid. I know that he is nearly worshipped by some people in turkey, but that's also distorting the facts.. You really have not understood how important he was in the struggle for Turkey to become a modern nation, he single-handedly stopped Turkey becoming a colony AND, most importantly, transformed Turkey into a secular nation from an extremely religious country. Turkey might not have perfected secularism maybe, but that's a different story.. If it wasn't for him most Turks (if there would have been any left by today) would be speaking Greek, French, English like an Arab or African country AND live under shariah.. Consider this as well.. it wouldn't surpise me that a Greek person wouldn't like him, he single-handedly stopped the Megali Idea, right? :)) The fact that he is so important even today is because there haven't been any more Turks since him that were such strong and modern leaders; corrupt politicians, what can I say? :)) Also please understand that what I just said is not pan-turkism nor nationalism, it is normal for people to recognize people from the past that contributed so much to their current existence.. That's all.. Baristarim 16:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TRNC[edit]

NAR may not be fully sovereign, but it did issue a proclaimation recognizing the sovereignty of Northern Cyprus. If the Grand Knights of the Order of Malta can be regarded as an independent entity, then why not NAR, which has a fair amount of territory? User:Expatkiwi

Follow-up. I just looked at your reader page and realized that you are Greek, so no point arguing this issue with you.

I know all about the relationship between New Zealand and Greece, and the fact that a lot of New Zealanders died trying to stop the Nazi invasion in 1941. I am aware of Greece's ancient history. But I also know how hard-nosed the typical Greek is, and that any attempt to argue politics with a Greek is a useless gesture, regardless of the righteousness or wrongness of the position. User:Expatkiwi

That 'invasion' was needed to stop a slaughter! I suppose that Enosis is something you beleive in. It might seem strange to you, but I believe in freedom and self-determination. But I'm also pragmatic enough to realize that you can't force two peoples who hate each other to live under the same roof. And since Greeks and Turks are always going to be at each other's throats, partition in Cyprus is the only answer. And please don't tell me that it is all ancient history. Greece is currently - in defiance of the EU regulations on Human Rights and freedom of movement - discriminating against the Albanian and Turkish minorities in Greece, and continuing to give the Republic of Macedonia a hard time. So maybe you'd better put down your bottle of Ouzo and your lamb gyro and start looking a little bit more closely at these antics of the Athens government. User:Expatkiwi

Pork, huh? Well you're right about one thing: I didn't know Greeks ate pork gyros. On the other hand, Lamb is a dish that both Greeks and Kiwis enjoy. In regards to Cyprus however, I believe that I am right to side with the Turkish Cypriots, and that Northern Cyprus should be acknowledged as a sovereign state in its own right. As long as the Greek Cypriot dream of Enosis remains alive, there can truly be no hope of reconciliation. User:Expatkiwi

Mary Carey[edit]

Antique Anatolian/Pontic war dance with swords accompanied by kemenche in Trabzon, 1910 postcard

Without a doubt! You know Coleman can have my vote as well. :p Carey is Greek? Aren't you thinking of Arianna Huffington? —Khoi khoi 23:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Angelides is Greek? I thought he was Latino! Hehehe. Who ever said that about Carey certainly knows what they're talking about... BTW, get on gmail. —Khoi khoi 00:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was just thinking...isn't there a possibility that he could be Laz? —Khoi khoi 02:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was just showing you the photo because (a) it was interesting and (b) they had similar clothing. However, the image (Image:Kukul.jpg) was actually uploaded by our friend Macukali, who is definately not Greek. I will ask him, ok? —Khoi khoi 03:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Macukali is an ethnic Laz (Inanna told me that once). ;-) —Khoi khoi 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you mean a Bozkurt? (Sure) —Khoi khoi 03:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greek motto[edit]

Hi! I just saw that you removed the {{fact}} template from the Greek motto on the List of state mottos. I agree that it looks like an obvious fact that Ελευθερία ή θάνατος is the Greek motto; surprisingly, finding a reference is not that easy. If you look at that page, you will see that almost all the national mottos listed have a reference; Greece is one of the rare exceptions. Since you think the request is "ridiculous", why not provide a reference, rather than deleting the request? Maybe it's because I don't speak Greek, but I couldn't find any reliable source showing that the motto is still in use today. As far as I can tell, it is not mentioned in the constitution, it does not appear on the coat of arms or on the coins or notes (neither drachma nor euro)... The only references I found either mention only the early 19th century, or are provably unreliable. If you are able to help, it would be much appreciated. Pruneau^talk 01:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Den ksero giati tora den mporeis na mou steileis email, pos to ekanes paliotera? Ego den allaksa tipota. Miskin 01:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lambano pantos ta email sou. Miskin 12:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hectorian, I think Pruneau has a point here. I mean, nobody can doubt that the phrase is a potent symbol of national identification for Greeks, but in order for us to list it as a "state motto" we'd need to show that it is legally enshrined as such somewhere. There would have to be some legislation instating it, like there is with the coat of arms or the national anthem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Different meanings of delete :))[edit]

Ok, I replied to the proposal.. I think we have a miscommunication about the meaning of delete.. I dont know the specifics of what happened at the German Wiki, I have no clue, I dont know if it was renamed, deleted completely, merged or whatever.. I will correct myself then: I was referring to the title, since I really don't believe that in German Wiki they would have deleted a whole article if it had enough sources and had a reasonable POV - even if it had POV, they would have put a POV tag as long as the title was correct.. So there is confusion, if any AfD comes along about this article, I am giving u my word, I will vote keep but rename (we will still be battling for NPOV though, however that's a different story :)).. By delete I wanted to refer to the article with its current title, since many AfDs result in articles being renamed.. Baristarim 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(to Hectorian) Thanks for adding the Greek names to the river articles! :-) —Khoi khoi 04:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A coincidence, of course! —Khoi khoi 04:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, you have any objections if I move Thermodon as well? —Khoi khoi 05:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow that was fast. —Khoi khoi 05:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pan Turkism[edit]

Dear Hectorian

You can find support in the article itself- İsmail Gaspıralı- lives before young Turks. See Encylopedia Britannica for roots also.
Sun Language Theory rejected by Pan-Turkists and Turanists( They are different movements but shares some oppinions). See, Zeki Velidi Togan, scholar in Turkey and in Vienn on Turkism, Hazarians. Left Turkey due to Sun Language Theory. And his assistant Nihal Atsız left Univercity carier. Nihal Atsız was a member of radical Greywolf movement.He was judgeted in 3 may 1944 due to Pan-Turkism, among many others. He was penaltied for prison for 1 and half year.
If we discuss about Radical Nationalist movements then "Enosis" and "Pan-Hellenism/Megali Idea" also must be take place on this article. If you have some oppinions abot them put your oppinions directly to the related article. Who say that these movements are finished/ended. Who was Makarios and Grivas, do you remember them. When they live at ancient times or at the 30 years before. How many politic parties/movement are in Greece.Are all of them democratic, liberal or not. You know the reality very well.

Regards Mustafa Akalp 17:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"The biggest stupidity is to suppose himself clever and the others as stupid."
I'm not so clever. Regards Mustafa Akalp 18:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greek diaspora[edit]

Πες μου κάτι. Νομίζω ότι στο Greek diaspora τα στατιστικά στοιχεία έχουν παλιώσει. Πιστεύω ότι θα ήταν καλή ιδέα να αντικαταστήσω τα στοιχεία με πηγές το Greeks around the Globe ή τα στοιχεία της ιστοσελίδας του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών με αυτά της Γενικής Γραμματείας Απόδημου Ελληνισμού [10] (ή οποία είναι τμήμα του Υπουργείου Εξωτερικών), επειδή τα στοιχεία τους είναι τα πιο πρόσφατα και αυτοί εξειδικεύονται σε τέτοια ζητήματα. Αν κοιτάξεις τα στοιχεία του Greeks around the Globe, θα δεις ότι είναι ίδια με αυτά που είχε η ΓΓΑΕ στις 12 Οκτωβρίου 2004. Φυσικά θα εξακολουθούμε να χρησιμοποιούμε τις εναλλακτικές πηγές εφόσον υπάρχουν (επίσημες απογραφές, ουδέτερες εκτιμήσεις κλπ). Ρωτάω εσένα επειδή είσαι από τους πιο ενεργούς χρήστες σε αυτό το άρθρο, και δεν ήθελα να έχεις αντιρρήσεις αφότου θα είχα περάσει ώρες ανανεώνοντας τα στοιχεία ;-) Πες μου τη γνώμη σου.--Tekleni 21:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Επίσης, διάβασες το e-mail του Νικόλα σχετικά με το άρθρο που μας παιδεύει πολύ τελευταία;--Tekleni 22:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Σου τό 'πα! Δε σου τό 'πα?[edit]

Στην απίθανη περίπτωση που σου ξέφευγε: Δες εδώ. •NikoSilver• 00:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect[edit]

Something is wrong.sorry.I changed my password. Regards Mustafa Akalp 14:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Des il tah :D --Tekleni 20:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello[edit]

Greetings, as an Armenian I would like to extend thanks to you and other Greeks for working cooperatively on Armenian/Greek related issues on Wikipedia so as to improve not only their quality but most importantly, their accuracy. The article on the Pontic Greeks was something I had not heard about before however, what happend to its population did not surprise me. I regularly look through books in the library and one of the most poignant sources I have used come from news reports such as the NYT which extensively covered the Genocide with photographs. If you feel it relevant, I recently scanned an image of the Russian military occupying Trebizond in 1916 next to impoverished remnants of the city's population and can upload it here so you can use them.

I'll try to scour for more pictures regarding other ethnicities during that time period. Cheers --MarshallBagramyan 02:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TRWT-Rv[edit]

Dear Hectorian, Why you revert this article. I didnt put a link as "Turkish Minority of Western Thrace" ( in fact there must be). I linked to "Muslim minority..." article with only with an explanation "Turk..". "Turkish minority" is directly related with this article not "Muslim minority". Any one who read this article possibly will not interested in "See also: Muslim minority...." but instead "Turkish minority..." which will directed the reader to "Muslim Minority..." page. This is obvious. Please dont help nationalists. Due to these attacks I am obliging to advocate opposite nationalist behaviour that I dont desire much. Please guide Tekleni in creative works. Regards Mustafa Akalp 14:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kye xana... ehis grama...--Tekleni 20:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hectorian, u misunderstood; i meant ethnically period, the external links mentioned are the websites of a town called Hamseni, it doesn't mention anything about armenians or hamsheni culture... Have you taken a look at the websites?? :)) They don't refer to anything about hamsheni culture, hamsheni armenians or anything to do with hamsheni demographics or culture.. They are websites that give meteorological, casual info about a town called Hamseni :)) take it easy! :) As for the template, I changed it to where turkic languages are spoken, it is not a people template, it is a language template..Baristarim 21:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you undo my edits without reading my edit summaries, asking me why I did them in the first place or assuming good faith?? Pls take a look at those websites and tell me if there is anything about hamshenis.. Only info u will find is the administrative procudures of the municipality of the town Hamseni :)) Baristarim 21:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, not even Hamseni, the town's name is Hemsin.. :) Baristarim 21:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TRWT[edit]

TRWT is Official name as they declared. Google search gives results from same root. regards. Mustafa Akalp 08:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The "official name they declared" for what Wikipedia calls Transnistria is "Pridnestrovie". Your argument makes no sense.--Tekleni 10:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Hectorian,

Tekleni,burası hektorian'ın mesaj sayfası.Ne senin, ne de benim.Fanatik ve (profesyonelce finanse edilen) görüşlerini bırak ta wikipedia'ya biraz katkıda bulunmaya çalış. Benimle temas kurmanı da istemiyorum.Bu -sende gelişme olduğunu görünceye kadar- sana son mesajımdır. Mustafa Akalp 12:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Byzantine Infobox[edit]

Salutations Hectorian, about the Template:Byzantine Empire infobox, my own concerns where more about the format, the name being all capitol letters and the shortened, or de facto (for lack of a better term) name. Our own wiki articles on states (ex, France, Spain, etc) usualy indicate the de jure name in its native language, with regular grammar when concerning the lettering. Simply my thoughts on the subject. Farewell.--Dryzen 13:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ehis e-mail...--Tekleni 17:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Αττάλεια[edit]

As you know, I have no objections. ;-) —Khoi khoi 17:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ke xana...--Tekleni 18:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ke pali.--Tekleni 19:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PLEASE STOP[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute I am withing my rights to label the dispute--Calgvla 06:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greeks in Albania[edit]

Prespari (talk · contribs) made two changes I wanted to ask you about: this edit to Devoll District and this edit to Konispol. Do you know much about Northern Epirus? Perhaps you can provide sources for some of these claims. —Khoi khoi 07:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks! —Khoi khoi 08:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, no idea. ;-) —Khoi khoi 08:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Antalya[edit]

Thank you for the reference. You asked why i put the tag for reference. Simple: That's just because i could not trust your edits, cause i know some of your edit wars before. I was born in Turkey, i did not have a chance to choose my nationality, languauge,... You should be objective towards everybody, whether you like or not. If you would use the talk/discussion pages or send me an e-mail, there would be no problem. I consulted some experienced wikipedians, just because i have a feeling that you would never take comments into account. That's it. Sorry for doing this, but there's no other way. E104421 07:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, For the Antalya article again, i actually asked the reference related with the whole paragraph (about King Attalos), i never hesitated the Greek translation of it. Anyway, giving references always better, i'm interested in Anatolian history, i'm always curious about historical sources. I also do not like politicians, but this does not necessitates to attack the articles where they are mentioned. If you do not like the arguments, you can try to balance them with counter arguments based on reliable sources or discuss the issue in the talk/discussion pages. I should confess that i'm also guilty cause i should have tried to contact you first. Apologizing, E104421 08:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That polytonic template[edit]

Just put it in to make the fonts look consistent for both quotes, not to make the spelling itself polytonic. But it's of no big importance of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Imbros[edit]

Please check atricle for last contribution, and put your oppinions on talk page. Regards Mustafa Akalp 17:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks[edit]

Thanks for playing fair, I am trying to have a rational discussion and respect the rules. I don't know why Eupator and Clevander thought they could get away with moving your comment. --Caligvla 00:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ela[edit]

Psakse ligo sthn phgh pou ebala gia ta quotes sou, 8a breis na cite-areis ki alla. Ebala ki egw ena wraio quote sth selida mou. Den einai gia tous Ellhnes bebaia, (fobamai mh mou kaneis asfalistika metra gia clopy-right :) alla kati einai ki ayto... •NikoSilver• 12:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oute egw klebw ta pneymatika dikaiwmata apo filarakia! :-) •NikoSilver• 12:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Imbros[edit]

Dear Hectorian. Two hours ago you moved Patriarch of Constantinople to Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. No need nationalism. Did you ever know ,where Barthelomeo was born two days ago. I am trying to be neutral. I contribute many things as well as the Barthelomeo's birth place,and I asked your oppinion(with khoikhoi and Tekleni) not any Turkish user. Please be reasonable.

Much regards. Mustafa Akalp ^TC 18:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fener Rum Patriği[edit]

Dear hectorian, Yes I moved this article, in my first 3rd day in wiki.(only one move-with an explanation in summary, why).13 september. Same day I saw discussions and newer edited/moved again,for consensus, look history. You are free to rename a person or institute as you wish.

But "official" means is official. This holly person is a Turkish citizen, in Turkey all religional activities ordered by laws, not by mutual statements.

Your allege; "Ecumenic" and of "Constantinople". Is partiarchate a current institute or historic? If current, name of the city is Istanbul not Constantinople. If historic, it is not Ecumenic.

Thinh about it. Regards Mustafa Akalp ^TC 19:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No nationalism, please. Self-id comes first: Bart. says he's the "Ecumenical Patriarch". Period. According to that logic, we should move Central Tibetan Administration to Chauvinist outlaws, and true Catholic Church to bullshitters.--Tekleni 19:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC) (episis Hektoniane, des il tah!)[reply]

coincidences[edit]

Hi, I commented again on Khoikhoi's and Duja's talk/discussion pages. That's just because the coincidences (hectorian's and tekleni's being together almost at the same time on the same page) are too much. However, this does not mean the claims are true. I wrote Khoikhoi, cause he knows you better. There is no bad faith in it. After getting information from other users, i closed the issue as i wrote to Duja. That's it. I'm trying to know you better, cause i have a feeling that we'll see each other frequently. E104421 23:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly, agree. Maybe better to ask each other rather than consulting to others. Cheers E104421 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue II - October 2006[edit]

The October 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 14:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rigas[edit]

Hi. Sorry, I hadn't intended to blank, and I don't know how it happened - some error of some sort, as I specifically reverted to my version (a weird technical problem?). Dahn 19:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I see that the text was posted twice on one page. What the hell happened? Dahn 19:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hectorian, please tell User:Sshadow why he is confused and absurd in his edits on Rigas Feraios. If I am to understand correctly, one POV says that the Aromanians are Latinised Greeks etc, and not that Aromanians do not exist. Currently, the article on Vlachs lists all populations ever referred to under the exonym, from Romanians to Aromanians. Thus, Aromanians becomes a specific article, as the other user has admitted himself when he posted on my talk page that Vlachs covers everything, from Romanians to Morlachs. Rigas Feraios is, to the best of my knowledge, an Aromanian - the fact has thus nothing to do with the dispute over the character and origin of Aromanians (judging by your edits, you seem to agree with me). For a mysterious reason, the said user has also implied that Neagu Djuvara is "biased" for being a Romanian: I ask if this has anything to do with anything - even if he were biased just for having a certain citizenship, I fail to see what is disputed about his using the precise "Aromanian" instead of the vague "Vlach". Thank you. Dahn 20:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Hectorian, much of that is what I was telling Sshadow: the issue had no possible logical connection with the dispute between POVs, and calling Feraios "Aromanian" did not harm the usual Greek POV in any way (nor advanced the standard Romanian POV). For some reason, S began charging me and Djuvara of "having a POV", even though this (if at all probable) had no connection with anything in the article. Just in case, I thought I'd let him know why he is wrong about "my POV" (even though I reject the standard Greek assessments for being politically-motivated, I have the same attitude towards the standard Romanian views, and for the same reason). Also just in case, I thought I'd let him know why it is not constructive to start waving around accusations of "having a POV" just for belonging to a certain nationality (a non sequitur in any civilized society), and why he should consider the paradox of this particular a priori charge of nationalism in connection with the nationalist philosophy that is motivating the charge itself! That is all. Dahn 13:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Το θέμα δεν είναι η καταγωγή τους. Το θέμα είναι ότι το Vlach είναι το εξώνυμο με το οποίο είναι γνωστοί οι Βλάχοι στην αγγλική γλώσσα, όχι το Aromanian (μια, ας πούμε, υπο-ομάδα). Sshadow 20:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re[edit]

Thanks!! Have you seen my first delete? :p —Khoi khoi 01:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gibbon on Botheric[edit]

Would you mind explaining to me why calling an incident in late antiquity involving a Greek man desiring a beautiful boy "pederastic" is "blatantly povish"? This is what Gibbon had to say about it: "Botheric, the general of those troops, and, as it should seem from his name, a barbarian, had among his slaves a beautiful boy, who excited the impure desires of one of the charioteers of the circus." Haiduc 03:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Muchas gracias[edit]

Hey Hectorian, thanks a lot for supporting me in my recent RfA. It succeeded, and I am very grateful to all of you. If you ever need help with anything, please don't hesitate to ask. Also, feel free point out any mistakes I make! Thanks again, —Khoi khoi 04:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, how's this? —Khoi khoi 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, have you noticed the new Greeks in Armenia article? What do you think of it? Khoi khoi 03:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Archbishop vs. Metropolitan[edit]

On the talk page of the Greco-Turkish war, you changed "Archbishop" to "Metropolitan". I'm sure I could figure out the difference if I researched it but I'd appreciate it if you could explain the difference to me in a nutshell. Thanx. --Richard 15:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sources[edit]

Hectorian, a very good friend of mine is a history professor specilized also on history of religion. I discussed the issue with him a long time ago. I shall ask him for "scientific" sources and also the historical progress of the patriarchy. If you send me an e-mail, i can send you the documents and references. Regards, E104421 16:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As i said before, i'll ask for "scientific" sources which are expected to be neutral. Actually, i do not know what kind of information i'll get from my friend (whether they are available online or not), that's why i ask for your e-mail. Anyway, the sources would be neutral and scientific (i'm very keen on these issues, being neutral and scientific). E104421 16:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more note, http://www.patriarchate.org/ is not the official site of the patriarchy itself cause the adress links to a greek site http://www.ec-patr.gr/. Anyway, i'm not concerned about these, what i'm interested in is whether it is really a world-wide recognized organization or not. E104421 17:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had a brief conversation with my friend on the phone. He said historically it was ecumenical up to Lausanne. Although there is nothing in the treaty about the status of the patriarchy, the Turkish government permitted the patriarchy to stay in istanbul after the negotiations in Lausanne. However, the official status itself is controversial according to the Turkish laws and international treaties. I'll do some research on this and try to get back to you. E104421 18:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more note, the issue has nothing to do with Ataturk. The controversy arise form the fact that there is no consensus or international agreement on the formal/official status in Turkey (laws, treaties, ...etc). Regards E104421 19:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Hectorian. There is one important thing i want you to know. I'm not a spokesman of turkish government. I'm reflecting what i know or what i observe. I was born in turkey. One of my grandfathers was bulgarian, the other was turkish. One of my grand mothers was greek, the other was turkish. However, i'm living in Turkey, as Turkish citizen. I'm proud of it cause turkey is a multi-national, multi-lingual, multi-religional or to simplify multi-cultural country. Please, keep this in mind. Kind regards E104421 18:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I always appreciate your opinion. I'm agree with you in most cases, but please try to understand that turkey is not an independent country. Its politics mostly governed by others rather than the people of turkey. i'm socialist person but unfortunately todays situation is not able to reach that point. This requires patience and work. Maybe in the future, i hope, turkey will become more democratic and developed country. However, you should not expect this to happen immediately. As you might already know from Fyodor Dostoevsky's works "time solves everything". Cheers! E104421 19:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, time does not cure everything, and also the river does not go back. Furthermore, one cannot cross the river two times as Heraclitus said. However, that's my wish. Perhaps, it may work. We'll see. One more note, if you want to contact me you can send me an e-mail, cause i do not have too much time nowadays to contribute wikipedia. Keep in touch young brother, E104421 20:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unblock[edit]

Please see my message; here, and here. Regards Mustafa Akalp ^TC 09:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss before revert[edit]

Do not revert before explaining why my changing was wrong, please. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia#Wrong_citation --134.155.99.42 12:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia in Europe[edit]

I am a member of the AMA (Association of Members' Advocates) currently acting on behalf of User:Caligvla, who has named you as one of the participants in the dispute over whether Armenia is in Europe or Asia. Caligvla has listed a number of reference sources classifying Armenia as an Asian country. He claims that the only sources quoted by your side of the dispute are 1.) an obsecure Canadian website that places Armenia in Europe, and a BBC article that mistakenly places Armenia in Europe. Can you please respond to this and give your side of the argument (preferably on my userpage)? Under the AMA principle of audi alteram partem, you have the right to be heard. (NB Copies of this message have been placed on the talkpage of all those who Caligvla has named as participants in the dispute.) Walton monarchist89 09:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. As you can see, the straw poll has provoked equally strong support and opposition for the proposed changes. It's useful, if only to show that there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate - but it sends us back to square one, in that the opposition from you, User:Eupator andUser:The Myotis is strong enough that I don't have a mandate to make the changes. As such, having failed to find a compromise of my own, I'm now inviting everyone else to suggest one. We need to find a way of saying, in a way that no one finds offensive, that Armenia is both in Asia and in Europe and that the domestic political situation reflects links with both continents. Any ideas would be welcomed. Walton monarchist89 12:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Imbros[edit]

Dear Hectorian, You may right.But Rv is not a good way, since you delete some contributions also. Please edit on my version. I am ready to discuss all details word-by-word on articles talk page. Hay, please revert back and make modifications on which part you want, later lets discuss on these modifications. I think we can find our way. Regards. Mustafa Akalp ^TC 20:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Hectorian,

Please see population table, is it possible to make more pretty&legible? regards Mustafa Akalp ^TC 16:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Hectorian,

Re. place names. I think that "Older Greek name is .." not make a sense if we consider your pov. This means obviously "older", not in use now. Is it possible to change this statements like as; "name in Greek,(also official older name)" or "(older Turkish official) name in Greek." or any other you offer.

Regards. Mustafa Akalp ^TC 11:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tăriceanu[edit]

The link is misleading. His mother is not wholly Greek - if we do not draw a line somewhere in esatblishing what a Greek-Romanian is, we are bound to end up with an irrelvant pile. See Wikipedia:Romanian Wikipedians' notice board#Greek in Romania, and please don't react without looking into the problems posed. Thanks. Dahn 15:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The very point of this, Hectorian, is that he may not not want to be listed. I don't know about Anniston, but, when we delve this far into intimacies, we would have to rely on what the persoon accepts about himself or helself. Whan you have one Greek parent, I guess it is reasonable - obbjectively, you are half Greek. But when your more distant relatives are Greeks, you do not really count as Greek unless you want to. The problem is especially thorny in Romania, where thousands of people can be thusly judged as Greek, although they have never judged themselves Greek. Dahn 21:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I'd appreciate less bombastic and repetitive rhetoric about my supposed POV. Dahn 21:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hectorian, when does a person stop being Greek? Just how many generations does it take? Presumably, since the question does have an answer, no matter what that answer is, there is a criterion to observe. That means: Tăriceanu's mother is Greek-Romanian; he is less likely to be one. If one is Greek for having a Greek grandparent or even great-grandparent (despite no indication that he would feel Greek or want to be identified as one), there's no stopping the madness. That would also make me "Bulgarian", Charles, Prince of Wales "Greek", and most of the Americans in the 13 colonies "English"! Dahn 21:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, basically, your answer is that "you know people have no connection to x ethnicity when they have no connction to x ethnicity"... What I had asked, Hectorian, was to tell me when they have no connection to x ethnicity.

You have also specifically asked for examples where what you have said does not apply on wikipedia. For God's sake, Hectorian, I knew that Charles had Greek roots and that the colonial Americans were [insert number] generation English people. That is why I was providing the examples. For starters, even if the American census does require (as many other ones) a self-definition of ethnicity, returns as "Englishmen" are about zero. Now, in case we're done avoiding the subject, go ahead and include Charles into the category for Greek-Englishmen (otr whatever it is called), and go and include George Washimgtom, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson etc and all their scions to the 3rd (or is it 4th? 5th? 6th? 7th? 8th?) generation in "English-Americans". Let me know when you're done with that,and we'll see about Tăriceanu. Dahn 17:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Hectorian, the issue is when does one stop being a "Greek-something". The issue would thus involve some of the descendants of a Greek, but how many? Why is it that Henry Adams is not the same "something" as John Adams? Reflect upon that, then consider that Tăriceanu's mother, and just his mother, is partly Greek. For royal families (you may note that I have removed Michael I from the links based on the same reasoning), the criteria do not apply not only because they belong par excellence to the nation they rule, but because the descendance would be too complicated to be meaningful. I have fought at length with several Romanian users about the Caragiales, supporting their inclusion - at worse, one of the Caragiales was half-Greek. I have also favoured adding Phanariote families in Romania en masse, despite the fact that most of their members have not identified themselves as Greek (and I thanked God that I could tag it to failies, instead of having to "pedigree" individual members). But Tăriceanu, Hectorian, Tăriceanu is less than half Greek... an information only available in obscure sources, and not provided by the man himself (which would not matter, IMO, for a Greek or a non-Greek). How much further will we stretch the criteria? Dahn 18:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kemalist Ideology[edit]

Could you explain the relation of Kemalist ideology with Taksim? E104421 18:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Kemalist ideology actually does not reflect all the turkish politics. You know during the operation atilla, not only ecevit but also erbakan was at the government (there was a coalition). As far as i know Megali idea was the aim of establishing a Greek state that covers all the Greeks. For this reason, although abandoned, the aim itself is related with the issue. There is no need to add enosis cause it is already mentioned in the article. I still cannot see any relation with Kemalism in any sense. E104421 19:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After Ataturk's death, only the name Kemalism stayed in the politics of turkey. Although everybody, even in turkey, consider the system to be Kemalist, this is not true both in practice and theory. Kemalism is related with left-wing policy but especially after the Nato membership turkey totally left Kemalist ideology, only the name remains. About the megali idea, ok, you certainly know better, i trust you. What do you propose? E104421 19:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, maybe better to have them all. Cheers! E104421 12:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There may be multiple wikifications i did not noticed them, but i'd like to know why you removed only the enosis and turkish cypriot wikifications. There are also greek, greece, turkish multiple wikifications, but you selected these ones. Regards E104421 17:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diafora[edit]

Sto arthro Monastiri den me afisan na balo ta onomata tis polis stin kefali epeidi taxa anaferontai idi se ksexoristi paragrafo kai the einai "pleonasmos". To Tourkiko onoma tis Thessalonikis anaferetai episis se ksexoristi paragrafo alla mas to exosan stin proti grammi. Ystera to onoma ton ebraion einai stin pragmatikotita to idio me to tourkiko kai oxi to onoma tis thessalonikis sti glossa "Ladino" opos isxyrizetai, alla se douleia na briskomaste. Ta ypoloipa onomata den ksero ti skata douleia exoun na briskontai ekei. Kai telospanton den katalabaino giati emeis eimaste ypoxromenoi na bazoume 10 ksena "istorika" onomata se 150 diaforetika arthra, kai stous skopianous den bazoun oute ena. Ta eksigisa ola auta ston khoikhoi kai mou apantise me ironies. Omos den exo pei akoma tin teleutaia mou leksi. Miskin 00:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Koita ligo ti protina stin selida tis Thessalonikis - na fygoun ola ta onomata ektos apo syggekrimenes periptoseis opou i istoriki tous aksia einai anamfisbititi. Nomizo einai i moni lysi. Miskin 23:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Istanbul[edit]

I reverted myself now... Khoi khoi 23:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because of this. Khoi khoi 23:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I have no problem with removing the Turkish name, but what about the Aromanian & Albanian names? Khoi khoi 00:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It has nothing to do with politics, but if Aromanian isn't a language, why isn't the page at Aromanian idiom? What's wrong with mentioning the name? Should we delete it from Kruševo and Thessaloniki as well? As for the Albanian name, there actually are (Cham) Albanians living in the city, and "Janinë" seems pretty distinct to me... So the answer is actually "yes". Khoi khoi 00:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so we can remove the Aromanian name because Aromanian is not really a language. As for the Cham Albanians, you just ain't lookin'. Compare to the Turkish editor over at Trabzon who deleted the stuff about Greek-speaking Muslims living in the city. He said, "my cousin's been there an he doesn't know what you guy's are talking about". Remeber that Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not facts, and this source reports Albanians living the region. Even if it's not that different, you know that Albanian and Greek are different languages. Khoi khoi 01:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I managed to find another source. :-) You asked me: "did they ever rule the city?". According to a brief history of Ioannina city:

“

The Castle, is built on a small peninsula extending in Pamvotis lake. Its present form is the result of extensive restoration works of Ali Pasha, governor of Epirus at the end of the 19th century. The Albanian ruler rebuilt and repaired the city walls between 1795 and 1815. The previous phases of the castle have disappeared under Ali?s works and only few traces of the Byzantine and early post-Byzantine castle can be seen today.

”

How's that? Khoi khoi 02:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So would you have objections to me adding the Ottoman Turkish name then? :-) (you can see how desperate I am!) Khoi khoi 02:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Greek name used to be at the Jerusalem, I don't know who removed it. But the Ottomans were there for centuries...isn't that long enough? Yes, I know it's in the Arabic script. Khoi khoi 02:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know—you Greeks have been all over the freakin' world. ;-) I intended to add in the Arabic script, Saposcat would probably know it, but he appears to have left Wikipedia... Khoi khoi 02:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about that, have you heard that there's a proposal to start an Ottoman Turkish Wikipedia? And yes, we are completely dominating. :-) Khoi khoi 03:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your forgot the best one: Klingon Wikipedia! A language only used in Star Trek. Khoi khoi 03:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support![edit]

Se la face ay pale, la cause est...

23:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

If I'm a bit pale in the face now,
it's because of the amazing support
during my recent request for adminship
and because of all those new shiny buttons.

And if in the future
my use of them should not always be perfect
please don't hesitate to shout at me
any time, sunset, noon or sunrise.

User:E104421[edit]

Hi Hectorian,

I just saw that you, too, had problems with User:E104421, very obviously a Turkish ultra-nationalist, vandalizing Wikipedia articles. He is also vandalizing Iran-related articles, most recently the Hephthalites article, pushing for an un-accademic and Turkic-nationalist POV, ignoring and openly insulting world-renowned scholars, as well as the two most authoritative works on Islamic and Middle Eastern history: the Encyclopaedia of Islam and the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Your help may be needed, since you already have some experiences with this user. Thx.

Tājik 02:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RfC opening on Armenia[edit]

Given the complete deadlock on this issue, and the failure of the strawpoll, I think the time has come to take the dispute-resolution process to the next level by opening a request for comment. This will open the debate up to the whole Wikipedia community, and hopefully generate, if not consensus, then at least a majority view. I will invite all users involved in this issue to contribute to the RfC, which can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. I realise that you may now be a bit bored with having to explain your views again and again on different pages, but as an advocate I think this is the only way to finally end this dispute. Walton monarchist89 09:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen this?[edit]

[[Category:Turkish saints]]--Eupator 15:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia strawpoll[edit]

NB This poll has now closed, it being Friday 10th November and about 10.30am where I live. The numbers are as follows:

Support 6 (although User:Hamparzoum's existence has been disputed by User:Tekleni.
Neutral 1.
Oppose 10.

As such, no mandate has appeared for making the requested changes to the article. As previously advertised, Caligvla and I are taking a break from this dispute for a week. After this, the case may be taken to the mediation cabal, although I hope to avoid this eventuality. Walton monarchist89 10:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yati re?[edit]

Yati ise prodotis, re?--Hellenas 21:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Γιατί τί ρε; Watch your mouth and do something constructive, αν θεωρείς ότι εσύ δεν είσαι προδότης. Hectorian 21:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template[edit]

You are partly correct. Cyprus must be take a place in template since one of Its official language. Also Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus with related remarks/tags. Can you make this correction please? Regards. Mustafa Akalp ^TC 17:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BHRM[edit]

Des ti evala se ekino to arthro. Ya na dume o Kaltsef ke o Komitadzis ti tha pune tora ;-) --Tekleni 21:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katalaveno. Kita na dis o Kaltsef ti pige ke evale sto minorities in Greece - to evgala, ke evala ya to Kalfov... Protokolo alla ehun arhisi ne ma eknevrizun. Mionotites pragmati iparhun stin Ellada, alla yati grafun malakies ya fandastikes mionotites. I yelies kivernisis mas ftene. Apo to 1968 mehri ti dekaetia tu '80 i mionotita tis Thrakis anagnorizondan episima os "turkiki mionotita", ke meta tin xanaanagnorisan os "musulmaniki". Yati to ekanan afto? Afu turkiki ine: i Pomaki ke i Tsingani dilonun Turki, afto ine dedomeno ke den yinete na alaxi (opos i Vlahi stin Voria Ipiro dilonun Ellines ke taftizonde me ton Alvanofono, Slavofono ke Ellinofono Ellinismo ston periohi). Afto pu ekane i kivernisi mas edose aformi se kathe malaka na lei oti "i Ellada arnite oti iparhun mionotites", ke hrisimopiun os paragigma tus Turkus pu pragmatika adika arnite i kivernisi ya na ipostirixun tus avasimus ishirizmus tus oti iparhun "Makedonikes", "Alvanikes", "Vulgarikes", "Eskimoikes" ke alles aniparktes "mionotites" stin Ellada. Min anisihis omos - i udeteri hristes xerun pia ine i pragamatikotita ke afti i propaganda de tha perasi.--Tekleni 12:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

YS Gagauzi iparhun stin Ellada (stin Thraki) [piges iparhun alla den su tha dino tora ya na min ta dun i alli]. Dilonun Ellines ke ine Ellinorthodoxi omos ara den prokite ya ethniki mionotita.--Tekleni 12:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ataturk and genocide[edit]

Don't know if this is of interest to you, but I put what I believe to be a balanced, sourced paragraph in the Mustafa Kemal Atatürk article that says some people accuse him of instigating the Pontic Greek Genocide and the Armenian Genocide, and some people argue he did not, and it's been removed every time. If you'd like to put in your two cents I'd appreciate it. --AW 20:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, and that's exactly what I thought. I'm an American with no connection with Greeks or Turks or anybody related, and it seemed odd to me. --AW 15:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish President[edit]

Hmm, I don't know how I would put this since it is a bit complicated even for Turks to understand because of the complicated legal system in Turkey.. The government is responsible for Ministry of Education that runs all schools up until university. And universities are run by YOK (Higher Education Board) which is financed by M. of Education budget but whose board was designed to be independent. I say designed, because there are many other factors that come into play. Primary, secondary and high schools are run by the MoE but the teachers are given their teacher diplomas by the universities then appointed by the MoE. There is also another board which runs the education curriculum in these schools. So the thing is, even if according to the Constitution it is the government that runs the education system, it all comes down to the President in the sense that he appoints the members of YOK board, university presidents and the curriculum board. The nominations that go before the Pres come from elections among the academic staff of universities (these elections determine three candidates of which only one approved by the Pres). So the devil is in the details. The President has an extremely important "appreciation" power in determining all the key members of the education system (universities, curriculum etc). That's why the presidential elections in TR next year are so important. The problem is, if the system was working correctly (in the sense that, if we didn't have a religious party trying to exert more religious influence), President approves, 99 percent of the time, the propositions of the govt, but during times of great tension, he can resort to exerting his own decisions. So, yes, you can say that, at the end of the day, the President holds the final power. He is the one that can make the decisions that affect the higher education, which is the cornerstone of the Turkish establishment. For example, all imams that work in Turkey have to earn a diploma in thelogical departments of universities, otherwise they cannot exercise. So with the power to decide who can become a teacher or an imam, you pretty much control the whole future of the country. And it is on the President's say-so that people are appointed to run these universities. I know it is a bit complicated, but for Eastern Medi, it is still a simple system :)). Baristarim 03:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kafedaki[edit]

Gracie amigo. Tha tou rixw mia matia. Politis 18:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman Muslim casualties[edit]

Hey Hectorian, be sure to check this out when you get a chance. Best, Clevelander 00:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue III - November 2006[edit]

The November 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 12:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cyprus[edit]

Is there any reason that the Allies neglected to cede Cyprus to Greece immediately after World War II like they did with Rhodes? -- Clevelander 20:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

British last ditch imperialism at work I guess?--Eupator 22:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some information[edit]

Dear Hectorian

Please have a look: [[11]]

It is similar Armeniapedia which I also support. --alidoostzadeh 03:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings[edit]

Dear Hectorian,

Read before you revert.

That is all.

Francis.

And see mine :) - Francis Tyers · 18:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MKA[edit]

Please take a look Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Regards. Must ^TC 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try[edit]

ZOMG! Rouge admin abuse! [12] Duja► 09:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, that damn "the". Basically, the job comes down to editing all articles and recreating the cat, then labeling the old one with {{db-empty}} or similar. Guess I'll fix it myself tomorrow, as I was the one who screwed it; I think I saw some other CFKAFYROM category without it so I thought it was the practice. Duja► 19:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hectorian[edit]

Do you have anything better to do with your time than making WP:POINT edits? Khoi khoi 01:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is going to start a new series of WP:LAME edit wars. ;-) Khoi khoi 01:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, he added it to one talk page, you added it to six. Which one do you think is more disruptive? Khoi khoi 01:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was actually 172GAL... :-) Khoi khoi 01:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I never said you were wrong, my concern is the pattern that's going on here:

8 October: Clevelander adds {{WikiProject Armenia}} to Talk:Erzurum. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Erzurum&diff=80281820&oldid=79808890
24 November: 172GAL removes it. [13]
24 November: I restore, edit war ensues. 172GAL gets blocked. [14]
24 November: Mustafa removes it twice. [15] [16]
25 November: Mustafa adds {{WPTR}} to Talk:Thessaloniki. [17]
25 November: You go on a spree through Turkish articles. [18] :-)

What will happen next? I fear that then someone will "retaliate" to your edits, and then it will only get lamer...

Thoughts? (from your lawyer, too) Khoi khoi 01:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, whatever dude. Just try explaining this to Mustafa, not me. Khoi khoi 02:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let people add as many WProject tags as they want. (Well the animal rights tag on Istanbul was too much but you get what I mean). I'll edit war against removal of TR template from Thessaloniki if you want. Gladly too, there are some esteem members there. Niko Silver 01:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Mr. Niko. I would like to hear from your client now. Khoi khoi 01:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I advise him to take the fifth. :-) Goodnight guys, ofcourse he will! Did you think he's got a complex or something? Niko Silver 02:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haha! Certainly, I am not the one with complexes here:). Hectorian 02:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was a joke. :-) Khoi khoi 02:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But ofcourse it was a joke! How could one misunderstand that! The other guy's lawyer 62.1.144.155 02:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So I guess that makes us φίλοι again! Khoi khoi 02:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose not... Khoi khoi 02:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anyways...[edit]

Like I was was saying... Khoi khoi 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cooperation board launched[edit]

A new (and overdue) Greek and Turkish cooperation and notification board has been launched here. Stop by, have a look and sound off! Cheers! Baristarim 07:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

thanks, it would be really nice to get a considerable number of both Turkish and Greek users involved, otherwise the "domination" of one side can deter other users from joining, or taking it too seriously. Cheers! Baristarim 00:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you want, you can directly use {{GR-TR}} for the template.. Baristarim 00:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Imvroz[edit]

Dear Hectorian, Thanks for your edits in Imroz. I added some(stupid- not in wiki standarts) a section for important peoples in Island history, to give a light to other contributors.Unfortunately I forgat to add Bartelomeo name to thar section, sorry. It is needed to develop,needs some sources. Also to add a list of Mayors will be good.I need some sources about them.(no records in offical web pages, I know only one Stavros Stavropulos and I am not sure about exact dates, but sure at 1965-1968 since I was there) Also I remembered some other ethnically Greek citizens; one is local painter, one advocate,but not remember the exact names, dates, some samples of works etc. This article need more development, can you find/supply some materials/sources. 1-2 month later, I hope I can add some photos(black-white, 40 years old, from my archive),also I am trying to take permission from "Erol Saygı" for photos and materials. Regards Must ^TC 08:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ITN[edit]

Re ITN talkpage comment, follow these procedures asap. Niko Silver 13:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings[edit]

PLEASE JOIN THE GROUP: Wikipedia:WikiProject Cyprus

There is MUCH to do but the road ahead will be a blessed road in the end. Cheers.(UNFanatic 15:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Greco-Turkish war[edit]

Hi,

I think I tend to agree with your perspective in the discussions we've had today. I just wanted you to understand that I am trying to be respectful of OttomanReference's edits even though some of them are POV and possibly OR. I sense a POV that is leaning towards "this war was the fault of nationalistic Greeks who weren't even supported by the people they were trying to liberate". I don't mind putting that in the article if it can be supported by citations to a reliable source.

The poor quality of OttomanReference's English skills makes it problematic to clean up his edits. The POV and OR don't help. Thanks for taking the time to discuss issues on the Talk Page. Please be patient with me. I am not trying to side with OttomanReference but I am trying to assume good faith as far as I can possibly do so (and maybe even a bit beyond).

--Richard 19:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hektoriane, ora to epi tou diktyou grammatokivotion sou ;-) --Euthymios 00:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Elabes to elektroniko taxydromio mou? Miskin 00:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Milletbasi in the Ecumenical Patriarchate Article[edit]

Yes, the citation covers those as well. This is because he was "milletbasi" and was thus also an important official with all kinds of non-spiritual powers and responsibilities :) --Free smyrnan 12:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The millet system did not mean a federation, or autonomy. Neither did it mean that the Muslims and non-Muslims were regarded as equal. But, especially combined with different ethnicities engaging in different commercial activities and living in different parts of the city (though not in ghettos in the European sense) it meant that by and large different ethnicities could live their own way of life, except when crossing the inter-religious boundaries. When the Tanzimat Ferman was proclaimed, the ceremony involved pulling it out of a bag, reading it and putting it in the bag again. It is said that the Patriarch who was in attendance at the time said "and may it never come out again". This is the Ferman that re-organizes the state mostly according to European norms -- gives equality to all ethnicities and, consequently, removes the millet system. History is a melange of different shades of gray. :) Regards, --Free smyrnan 22:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted the exact text of some references on the milletbasi. Check it out in Talk:Ecumenical_Patriarchate_of_Constantinople. Actually some of this would be useful incorporated in the Millet (Ottoman Empire) article or in the section we are discussing. Want to do the honors? --Free smyrnan 06:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The anecdote has the meaning that the Patriarch did not want the ferman. The Tanzimat ferman, by granting equality to all before the law also meant the end of the ecclesiastical court. Which is why the Patriarch would not want it. As for your comments on administration -- again, we are not talking about autonomy in the modern sense of the word and there is no point in re-iterating the examples given in the quote from Jelavich, but I am sure you would agree that it shows the patriarchate was involved in the administration of the Orthodox faithful. The autonomy of outlying provinces are a different story entirely. We are not talking about a modern nation-state with a unified, standardized bureaucracy here, but a classical, agrarian empire and please always keep that in mind when discussing differences in periods or regions in the OE. More detail on the millet system would be appreciated. It is part of our common history, but more directly yours than mine. Regards, --Free smyrnan 10:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request[edit]

Ya, can you please add the Greek name to the Anastasios Papoulas article? Thanks, Khoi khoi 03:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hehe, yeah. If he doesn't knock if off soon I'm going to block the entire city of Edessa. ;-) Khoi khoi 22:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mitsos RfC[edit]

Hi. I have slightly modified my comment at Mitsos' RfC. You might want to reconsider your endorsement of my summary. Thanks. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 10:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mitsos RfC[edit]

Hi. I saw you commented on the RfC discussion page. Might I suggest that you move your thoughts to the Outside Views section on the main page. Not a lot of folks are going to see it on the talk page, and I think your prose hits on some important issues. It's entirely up to you. →Bobby← 14:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Πολυ σωστα αυτα που εγραψες. Μπραβο. Απλα ηθελα να σου προτεινω να πεις και σε καναν αλλο για το RfC. Αν θες και αμα μπορεις βεβαια. Thanks Mitsos 18:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Swsta. Euxaristw. Mitsos 07:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also look at what NikoSilver and Aristovoulos wrote. I 'm not telling you to endorse it, just look at it and if you want... Thanks Mitsos 11:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heracles[edit]

Thank you for restoring the "foreign language" links deleted by User:68.190.89.38, who treads the borderline of vandalism. --Wetman 07:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Byzantine Empire[edit]

Hello! I know you have been a keen contributor to the discussions at Talk:Byzantine Empire, so I am eager to know what you think about the latest proposal on that page. There is a vote about whether or not we should change the Byzantine Empire from pink to purple in all the maps of the article. I would be very happy to see your support or object, or even comment on this issue. Please let us know what you think! Thanks, Bigdaddy1204 13:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yo dude, what's going on?[edit]

Man, can you explain to me how come you ran into three fDs right after another after a small period of inactivity? Is there some kind of "oppose Turkish POV" at all costs going on? It would be nice if you actually tried to hear out the arguments in those fDs.Baristarim 00:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject History of Greece Newsletter - Issue IV - December 2006[edit]

The December 2006 issue of the WikiProject History of Greece newsletter has been published.

You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link.

Thank you.--Yannismarou 15:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]