User talk:HaarFager

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Gallery in article

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Congratulations!

Congratulations HaarFager! Your image Image:Monarch In May.jpg was the Random Picture of the Day! It looked like this:

Random picture of the day

A Monarch Butterfly, state insect of Idaho

Image credit: HaarFager (talk · contribs)

. - Talk to you later, Presidentman (talk) Random Picture of the Day 21:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Ron Dante 3676gf.jpg

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Featured Picture

An image created by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, File:Monarch In May.jpg, was nominated on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! Dusty777 18:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

POTD notification

POTD

Hi Haar,

Just to let you know that the Featured Picture File:Monarch In May.jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on August 15, 2013. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2013-08-15. Thank you for all of your contributions! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 26

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September 2014

Hello, I'm Doniago. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Gateway Arch, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. -- DonIago (talk) 20:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

How would I go about leaving a citation? The incident happened to me personally. I spoke about it, along with a few pictures I posted right after the incident happened and the story can be found on Flickr, a popular photo-sharing site. Could I use that article to get a citation for this Gateway Arch page and the incident? Here is the article on Flickr: Me Photographed By The Security Guard. Just let me know. Thanks! Kenny HaarFager (talk) 09:37, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Information published in Wikipedia articles must be verifiable. Unfortunately, if there are no reliable sources to corroborate your incident then it is inappropriate for inclusion. As I hope you can understand Wikipedia editors are not themselves considered reliable sources. DonIago (talk) 14:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

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Highway articles in the US

These are written west-to-east or south-to-north to follow the direction of the mileposts as posted along the highways. That's why the US 66 article is written as it is, and flipping it would make it inconsistent with all of the other US Highway articles. Also, assuming you gained consensus for such a change on the talk page, you can't just flip the subsections around, you'd have to totally rewrite all of them, you'd have to invert the order of junctions in the infobox and in the major intersections section. Imzadi 1979 → 23:27, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I have totally rewritten everything to reflect an east to west journey - which is the way it was used the most. Refer to all the Dust Bowl refugees that traveled that way. Due to the special needs this single roadway provided, flipping it this way makes sense. It's a special case and needs to be highlighted. So, it makes much more sense to list it this way, does it not? Kenny HaarFager (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You just flipped the state subsections around, so instead of starting at Chicago, you started at East St. Louis and proceeded northeasterly to Chicago, then jumped to southwestern Missouri, etc. You did try to rewrite the Texas subsection, but everything's been reverted. Again, the national collection of Interstate and US Highway articles are written south-to-north and west-to-east, and the overwhelming majority of state highway articles are written that way too. Such a radical change would need prior discussion on Talk:U.S. Route 66 first. Imzadi 1979 → 00:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

What you reverted back was before I rewrote everything. I have that re-written version on my end and I haven't uploaded it yet. Why would it need discussion? It's not so radical at all due to the nature of this one roadway. Why didn't you respond to that point? Oh, and one other pertinent point of information. Have you never heard the song "Route 66?" One of the first lines of it goes "It winds from Chicago to L.A., more than 2000 miles all the way." It was written that way because that was the most-used direction people took on the road. Kenny HaarFager (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Your proposed changes have been opposed. Thus, you need consensus to implement them. That the song was written that way is immaterial to the discussion. Unless you can point to a source that actually says the westbound traffic outnumbered the eastbound traffic, which I doubt you can because I'm sure the two directions were roughly equal like all other roadways, the default still applies: south-to-north and west-to-east. Imzadi 1979 → 00:58, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I will let you prove me right. Repeat to me here in the most common manner the Wikipedia article itself refers to the direction of the roadway. If you do not respond, I will take that as agreement to my arguments and go ahead and upload the new version I have written which rightly refers to it as a "Chicago-to-Los Angeles route." Kenny HaarFager (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

You're line that says "I'm sure the two directions were roughly equal like all other roadways" is based upon what data? Show me the facts. Kenny HaarFager (talk) 01:07, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

All of our various articles use the common expressions "east–west" or "north–south", yet they all are written south-to-north and west-to-east to follow the directions of their mileposts as per standard convention laid out in WP:USRD/STDS. If that is your contention, then you have a radical change to propose reversing the directions of thousands of articles based on an expression of the language and not the hard data concept of which direction the mileposts flow.

As for your last comments, it is common sense that highways have roughly equal traffic in either direction. To state otherwise would be an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sources. If your contention, "It was written that way because that was the most-used direction people took on the road," stated before mine, is that westbound traffic outnumbered eastbound traffic along old US 66, then you sir are the one who needs to provide a source to back that contention. The song could just as easily have been written with that line to make the rhyme "L.A. ... all the way" (emphasis mine) work out. And for that extraordinary source, you'd need to turn to actual traffic surveys, not anecdotal evidence from literature or song. Imzadi 1979 → 04:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

If you want to make a radical change in flipping the direction of the route description, you're going to need to propose it on Talk:U.S. Route 66, succinctly lay out your arguments and see if you attract a consensus among interested editors for an exception to WP:USRD/STDS. Until then, consider the wisdom behind WP:BRD: Bold, Revert, Delete. You were Bold, but have now been Reverted. The next step is to Discuss and persuade others of your ideas, not just implement them anyway. Imzadi 1979 → 06:05, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

References

Kenny, the standard adopted almost universally in the United states is that milepost 0 is at the west end of an east-west highway. It is therefore logical to assume that for an east-west highway the beginning is in the west and the ending is in the east. That is the standard adopted by the US Roads Wikiproject. Almost all other highway related projects have adopted a similar practice. Wherever the government agency that maintains the highway places milepost 0, that is the beginning of the road. If you want to argue this convention is wrong, fine, but that discussion needs to take place at a much larger venue than this user talk page, as literally 10,000+ articles are affected, including previously reviewed featured and good articles. I'd start at WT:HWY, and I'd use a much more solid rational than song lyrics when going against a convention set by the U.S. Department of Transportation. Dave (talk) 06:14, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Dave, you mention that "almost all other highway related projects" have adopted a similar practice. So, what you're saying is that there are exceptions? That's all I'm proposing, is another exception. And because the article makes a good case for the direction it was created to be for, all I was saying that should make a great case for another exception in this case. Route 66 had no part in California in the beginning, so where exactly was the first mile marker with 0 on it? Route 66 was taken off the maps I believe in 1985, and I take that to mean it's no longer a government sponsored road. Yet another reason to treat this road special. The song only came along to base what the general consensus of the road was, which was to "motor west." Kind of the like the cry from the previous century here in America, "Go West, Young Man." This was just another version of that same ethos. Kenny HaarFager (talk) 05:55, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

There's HWY, the international Highways Project, as well as the projects for Australia, Canada, Hong Kong, India and the UK in addition to USRD. A quick survey reveals:

• HWY has no set standard, and really has very little in the way of article standards in general.
• AURD follows the direction set by increasing chainages or SLK (straight-line kilometres), or the increasing direction of the house numbers along a roadway. Other options are based on official sources or from a largest settlement to the smaller one.
• CARD follows the direction of the kilometre posts, increasing from 0. Generally these also increase south-to-north or west-to-east as in the US.
• HKRD runs south-to-north or west-to-east.
• INRD lacks article standards.
• UKRD follows the increase in mileposts/driver location signs, which generally increase leading away from London or Edinburg.

So, to answer your question above, most projects follow the core of the USRD standard: follow the increase in official distance numbers. The exceptions are that some projects so so unorganized that they haven't set standards.

The US 66 designation may have been completely decommissioned in 1985, but we've treated other decommissioned highways by the same rules; see U.S. Route 16 in Michigan and U.S. Route 25 in Michigan for example. Just as US 66 was routed concurrently along various Interstates before it was finally decommissioned, US 16 was replaced by I-96 and US 25 was replaced by I-75 and I-94. In both cases, those Featured Articles are written in the standard directions, west-to-east and south-to-north respectively, to follow the mileposts that would have existed on those roadways. Imzadi 1979 → 09:46, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I do understand the point, from a historical perspective, the USA expanded east to west, and often the development and non-official description of most of our transcontinental infrastructure (not just US 66) reflects that. However, it doesn't persuade me. I can say with 99.9999% confidence that if and when someone produces a Straight Line Diagram or other historical document from the relevant DOT's, it will show US 66 was mileposted the same as any other transcontinental highway that still exists; with milepost 0 at the western terminus. The closest thing I've found so far is the Arizona Route 66 Association does have a mileposted guide of the original alignment that is mileposted west to east; however, there is no official source listed to show that these were the actual mileposts for US 66. [1]. The larger point being is that the US Roads wikiproject has developed a standard that is working to maintain the thousands of articles they try to maintain and is backed up by official government documents. I would need to see solid reasoning to convince me that it would be better to effectively abandon that standard by exempting any road where someone makes a historical or pop-cultural argument, possibly resulting in dueling standards on some articles.Dave (talk) 00:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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Quote: "Files lacking evidence of permission may be deleted one week after they have been tagged."

So let it be written, so let it be done.

HaarFager (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)