User talk:Guliolopez/Archive 10

Castle Maine

Many thanks for all your work in improving my references for Castle Maine, and for the other general additions and fixes. Much appreciated. WatermillockCommon (talk) 14:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

No worries. It takes a village. :) Guliolopez (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

McCarthy of Muskerry → MacCarthy of Muskerry

Hello, @Guliolopez. This is a message concerning an article you edited recently. After observing how poor the title of McCarthy of Muskerry was, I tried to change the title, however, I encountered a problem moving McCarthy of Muskerry to MacCarthy of Muskerry. You can view more details here. BurgeoningContracting 14:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Tulrahan

Hello. I think the Tulrahan page needs a infobox. OutlasterGuto (talk) 20:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Grand. There are examples, in the other towns and villages in County Mayo articles, that could be copied/tweaked. Guliolopez (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

British rule in Ireland

Wikipedia exhorts us to be bold while editing, which I have done, but to your dissatisfaction, so as a courtesy I will explain here what would have been too long to include in the edit comments.

You wrote:"Entirely unexplained changes. Why is the context changed to English rule? And linked to the Kingdom of England (927 to 1707)? Why is "British control [of parts of the island]" linked only to article on formation of UK and NI? Why change republic to nation state? Not only are these changes unexplained, but many make limited sense relative to scope of article or geographic/temporal span"

To address in the order presented:

• "Why is the context changed to English rule? And linked to the Kingdom of England (927 to 1707)?"
  • It is not. The "context" of the article remains the same. Chronologically and politically, it was first the Kingdom of England that extended rule over Ireland, prior to the existence of a "British" monarchy, i.e. the union of the crowns of England and Scotland, as well as Wales. As rule of Ireland was assumed by the successors to the Kingdom of England, e.g. Great Britain, United Kingdom, etc., they are represented elsewhere in the article with links. Is is disingenuous to imply that rule from overseas in Ireland only began with "British" monarchies, when it clearly began much earlier, but both are still addressed in the article.
• "Why change republic to nation state?"
  • Simply because the qualifier and adjective "republic" is used repeatedly in the context of the point being made in the paragraph already, clearly indicating it is a republic. By inserting the term "nation state" it avoids repetition while also reinforcing the concept that the Republic of Ireland became a peer nation to the UK and was not a subject state as the Free State was, which is a confusing point for readers who are unfamiliar with history.

 Shoreranger (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks Shoreranger. RE:

• "Wikipedia exhorts us to be bold". Indeed. The "bold, revert, discuss" cycle is an extension of that. And so now we have the discussion. Why we're having it on my talk page however, when Wikipedia "exhorts" that we have article content discussions on article talk pages, is another matter. So I'll open a thread there.
• "as a courtesy I will explain here what would have been too long to include in the edit comments". Great. I note however that you didn't use any edit summary whatsoever in your previous edit. Whether long. Or short. Not 500 characters. Not 5 chars. None. As Wikipedia exhorts us to do.
• "disingenuous". That's an unusual use of that word. As it is given to mean or imply an intent that someone (the article creator? me? who?) is being insincere or misleading. Deliberately so. Certainly there's no insincerity or pretense on my part.
• "[use of British in opening] implies that rule from overseas in Ireland only began with 'British' monarchies". Personally I don't agree. But happy to take it to the relevant article talk page to discuss better ways to frame the opening few words. Personally I read the opening sentence as covering the entire topic. Not just the beginning events of 1169/1170.
• "'nation state' V 'republic'". Fine. Now, with an explanation, it is understood. That wording probably is less repetitious. Thanks.
• "[[Formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|British control]]". I note that you didn't address my concern with this syntax. Which, to my eye, is something of an EASTEREGG. Happy to have that discussion on relevant article talk page too.

(If further discussion on article content is required, please engage on relevant article talk page/thread. If further discussion is required of an "editor-to-editor" variety, happy to continue here.) Guliolopez (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Knockanillaun

I found a photo of Knockanillaun. https://www.geograph.ie/photo/3083808 DigitalNeoMinato (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no context for this talk page post. Who are you? What do you want me to do with this information or link? Have you perhaps confused me for another user with whom you have a connection or collaboration? Guliolopez (talk) 10:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

My name is Santana Throckson and I'm new to this Wikipedia thing. DigitalNeoMinato (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh. OK. Welcome. Is there something you need or want help with? I ask because, as far as I can see, that image is already on Commons. Here: File:O'Boyles, Ballymanagh - geograph.org.uk - 3083808.jpg. If needed, see H:IMAGE. Guliolopez (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Enniskeane vs. Enniskean

Okay, to start:

1. (Your statement: But that is NOT the spelling used by any of the linked authority sources)

This is blatantly false and could easily have been ascertained had you checked the references listed in the article. see this one. and two. I am including two because I am not sure of what the definition of an authority source is and can not find one, however I am confident that the Irish Independent and the other reference would be considered a reliable source in WP:Reliable sources.

2. (Your statement: The local authority (Cork County Council), census authority (Central Statistics Office) and placenames authority all use the previous spelling.)

This is again, false, because of the previous reference that was included in the article that's from the Cork County Development Plan Review of Population and Housing from as recently as March 2020.

Because of the previous statement, I have added what would generally be considered authority sources that show the town is officially known as Enniskeane. Your reversal of the move is against consensus, and therefore, changes have been made to the article.

I am sure the name is Enniskeane, when checking the websites of the sawmill and the clubs (association football and Camogie), it lists the name solely as Enniskeane. There are no Irish sources about them that name the town as Enniskean.

This must have been an accident that was brought about when the page was created and after, the government sometimes began to use the name Enniskean, although this name is erroneous. To note, the town is quite small and I see in the edit history the correct name of the town on the article has been listed in the introduction and infobox since December 2016. I can not find any sources with the name listed as Enniskean before the time the Wikipedia page was created. Aquabluetesla (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Hi. Thanks for your note. While my edit summary/summaries could have been clearer or better put, in terms of:

• "[it is false to say that] The local authority (Cork County Council), census authority (Central Statistics Office) and placenames authority all use the previous spelling".

The census authority (Central Statistics Office) consistently uses the Enniskean (no "e") spelling (for example in 2011 census, 2016 census, etc.). "Ballineen-Enniskean" is the name of the census town.

The placenames authority (Placenames Commission) consistently uses the Enniskean (no "e") spelling (for example in logainm DB entry).

The local gov/planning authority (Cork County Council) is, indeed, less consistent. That linked planning document does, as you note, use the "Enniskeane" spelling. However, other documents published by the council, like this of July 2022 use the "Enniskean" spelling. And, I note that the road signage (managed by the council) also uses "Enniskean". So, perhaps, the County Council sources are (indeed) somewhat inconsistent.

• "no Irish sources about them that name the town as Enniskean". I'm not sure if by "Irish sources" you mean "Irish [language] sources" or "Irish [based] sources", but in this edit you literally changed the title of the Irish placenames commission entry. Giving the impression that it said/says "Enniskeane". When it does not. In all honesty, if any recent edit (of either of ours) was "blatantly false", it is this one. While, I am 100% certain, this was a good faith mistake on your part, this misrepresentation/misquoting of the source could not be left in place.

• your edit/summary here, about my change being "against consensus", what consensus discussion are you referring to? Perhaps you meant to say "no clear consensus (yet)" ?

• this edit summary, about it being "fallacious" that this is the name of the census town in the 2002 census record, what is that based on please? The 2002 census record seems to expressly give "Ballineen/Enniskean"?

If you want to have a discussion on what title the article should be, please open it on the relevant talk page. It would certainly be worth confirming a consensus on what the article title should be. But, FYI, my restoration of the stable title (18 years of stability) was perfectly within WP:RMUM and WP:TITLECHANGES norms.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 09:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)