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More Jupiter moons

Hiya, a new moon of Jupiter just dropped today: S/2016 J 3. As with last time, can you help update the other satellite pages? Thanks!

By the way, keep an eye on the Recent MPECs in case there will be more moon announcements! Nrco0e (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Oh my, and S/2021 J 1 too! Sure, I'll get to them. Double sharp (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, five more were just announced today... I wonder when Jupiter will hit 100? Nrco0e (talk) 00:09, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Created articles for today's and yesterday's (except S/2018 J 4 which you did). And updated the timeline and list. :) Double sharp (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that. Nrco0e (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Looking at it now, I have a feeling that S/2018 J 4 might actually be related to Carpo. Don't be deceived by its apparently low eccentricity--its high orbital inclination likely subjects it to the Kozai resonance, which causes its eccentricity to fluctuate wildly between 0.06-0.45. But that's a bit far into WP:OR anyway, so I suppose it would be best to wait for Sheppard to classify this one. I'm quite eager to see how this one will turn out. Nrco0e (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Interesting, I'm eager to know too. :) BTW, about how long would it probably take before we have new numberings? Some of those 2003 moons have languished for quite a while! Double sharp (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

No idea honestly. The MPC doesn't really publish their Minor Planet Circulars nowadays with their bimonthly publishing rate, nor does it seem like they make moon observations, orbits, and numberings a priority. I've submitted some Pandia precoveries two years ago and the MPC still haven't published them in their Circulars, though they did publish my more recent S/2016 J 1 and Ersa precoveries in M.P.C. 141872 from 19 July 2022, oddly enough. Considering this month's deluge of new moons, I do have a bit of hope that the MPC will focus more on moons in the next scheduled Circular sometime in February. Nrco0e (talk) 00:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Thanks for the info!

I notice Exoplanetaryscience's graphic File:Jupitermoonsdiagram.png shows S/2018 J 4 in the Carpo group; should we adopt that classification then, for consistency? Double sharp (talk) 10:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm a fan of it. They are visually close enough together we might as well assume they are. Saying S/2018 J 4 is its own J4 group is as much WP:OR as saying it's part of the Carpo group. exoplanetaryscience (talk) 11:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Exoplanetaryscience: Good enough for me. Done. :) Double sharp (talk) 11:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I saw a ref for estimated numbers of moons in one of your comments. I think those numbers would be useful in the leads of the Jupiter etc. moon articles. We present how many moons have been discovered, but readers are more likely to want to know how many moons there are. The number 14 for Neptune is therefore misleading, especially given that a lot of readers of these articles are likely to be quite young and might take that number as the actual number of Neptunian moons. — kwami (talk) 05:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Sorry, I'm not sure which comment and ref you mean. But I agree with putting in those numbers. Double sharp (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Do you know the paper I'm talking about? I think you were one party in the discussion. I remember there was an absolutely enormous estimated number of Neptunian moons > 1km (in the thousands if not more), but I didn't read carefully and don't recall anything specific. — kwami (talk) 05:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I did link these references in my comments about the irregular moon populations of Jupiter and Saturn. Ashton et al. (2020) estimate 600+600
−300 retrograde Jovian irregular moons with diameters >0.4 km and apparent magnitudes <25.7, while Ashton et al. (2021) estimate 150±30 Saturnian irregular moons with diameters >2.8 km and apparent magnitudes <26.3. I've already added these references in their respective moon lists.

For better interpretation of Jupiter and Saturn's irregular moon population counts, see Figure 3 (2020) for Jupiter only and Figure 5 (2021) for Jupiter & Saturn. These graphs show the size frequency distributions of each planet's irregular moon populations, which count the cumulative number of moons larger than a minimum diameter specified along the x-axis.

Figure 5 (2021) is especially nice for clearly showing how Saturn's irregular moon population outnumbers that of Jupiter's, and continues growing sharply as the minimum diameter becomes smaller. Saturn initially outnumbers Jupiter's irregular moon population by factor of 1.5 starting at diameters >5 km, then increases to a factor of 3 at diameters >2.8 km. The data doesn't extend far enough to indicate how many >0.4 km irregular moons Saturn has, but it most likely amounts to way more than a few thousand, if you assume that it maintains its steep distribution slope down to this diameter.

For Uranus and Neptune, we don't have a good estimate for their irregular moon populations yet. We currently know too few to accurately infer what their size frequency distributions look like. Nicholson et al. (2008) estimate at least 100 irregular moons >1 km in diameter for each of the four outer planets, but there isn't really any rigorous justification other than inference from an incomplete inventory of their moon populations at the time. exoplanetaryscience did mention Neptune having over a thousand >1 km moons, but that is merely an educated guess. Nrco0e (talk) 06:53, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I added the number to the lead of the Saturn article. Still thinking about Jupiter; it would be nice to have comparable numbers, but it looks like we've discovered close to their estimate for the number of Jovians of D > 3km, so I'm uncertain it would add much. — kwami (talk) 06:08, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I should mention perhaps my real reason for looking forward to more Roman numberings: I really want to see the large numerals used for something that isn't a date. We already have enough to get C in use; for D and M, we'll have to wait a while. :D Double sharp (talk) 22:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: S/2016 J 4 Double sharp (talk) 22:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Pandia (moon) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pandia (moon) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eirene (moon) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:44, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

World Chess Championship 2023

Hello @Double Sharp I would like you to help me in keeping updates on the upcoming Chess Championship matches , I have tried to improve the page myself but I would like you to consider my contributions to the page if anything is not right please remove it ,Thank you for your time . SHU KURENAI 23 (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Orbital period

I did a brief calculation that suggested the orbital period of 2.04 years is equivalent to ~ 743.778 days given the known semimajor axis. 108.160.120.57 (talk) 22:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Orbital period in days is already given as "P/d 743.69" in the MPEC source. Nrco0e (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll probably have time to finish it off tomorrow, then. (Unless you beat me to it. :D) Double sharp (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: As it turns out, I didn't, but thanks for beating me to it! :D Double sharp (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: I noticed that Scott Sheppard's site mentions Moons without names and have been numbered have well determined orbits, but they are too small to be named by the International Astronomical Union. Do you know what the size requirement is? Double sharp (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The IAU-WGPSN's Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature page says no Jovian moons fainter than H ≥ 18 (diameters ≤1.6 km for albedos ≥0.04) shall be named unless it is of "special scientific interest." Nrco0e (talk) 00:11, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

FAR for uranium

I have nominated Uranium for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 18:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Bismuth

Bismuth has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ¹⁴¹Pr 19:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Antimony

Antimony has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ¹⁴¹Pr 20:06, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Alternative Japanese character sets

Yes, that's what I had in mind (sorry I didn't get around to replying to you on the Language Ref. Desk during the narrow time-window available). AnonMoos (talk) 15:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

dates of peak ratings / rankings

Hi – thanks for updating the peak rating for Ian Nepomniachtchi. As regards the date, the practice so far has been to use the earliest date at which the player achieved the peak, so I changed the date for the peak ranking back to February 2023. Joriki (talk) 09:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Joriki: Yes, my mistake – I made it because while Nepo reached a new peak rating this month, his ranking was still No. 2 (as it was last month). Thanks for the correction. Double sharp (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

template:Unicode chart Kaktovik Numerals

Could you do me a favor and tell me if the characters display properly for you? (Assuming you don't have a Kaktovik font installed.) I submitted a web font to Phabricator, and a couple days ago the Unicode characters started displaying properly, so I removed the character images from Kaktovik numerals. But then someone contacted me on WP-ar that on their article all they now see is little boxes. So I figure if you can see the digits properly, it must be something on their end. — kwami (talk) 23:02, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Just boxes for me, too. Double sharp (talk) 02:42, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Shoot. I don't know the process at Phabricator well enough to even follow the instructions for adding a web font. — kwami (talk) 02:44, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

FYI, symbols for the 3 named Earth co-orbitals. Under the Commons cat 'proposed apollo asteroid symbols'. — kwami (talk) 22:51, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Re Shatranj/Tamerlane alt icon search

Hello, Double sharp. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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--IHTS (talk) 06:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Heavy line-weight symbols

Hi. The planetary symbols in the info boxes looked too light for me, so I made a heavier set. Planets, DPs, asteroids, centaurs. How do they look to you? Didn't do all the asteroids, because some just become a blob of ink. — kwami (talk) 11:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I think they're often too heavy (e.g. Victoria, Chaos, Varda). Double sharp (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, just revert me on the ones that seem too heavy to you.

All the others had been bold; Victoria wasn't even that. I only made it bold, though. — kwami (talk) 14:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Looks like you've reverted almost all of them. That's fine. I wasn't sure if some of them might've looked better to you. I can check and remove them all. — kwami (talk) 23:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I reverted Varuna and Chiron, Pholus & Nessus. That should be all of them. — kwami (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Alt Pluto bident

The glyphs we've been using are based on Moskowitz, but generally I see something with a larger orb (e.g. in the NASA poster). Moskowitz's design is easy to confuse with Neptune's trident, esp. at small font sizes. So, I've created an alt series of large-orb variants that are closer to the traditional form. (I used the orb of M's Mercury glyph, and adjusted the rest so that the two curves would be concentric.) Plus Charon to match. Anyway, just FYI in case you have some use for them.

— kwami (talk) 05:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, for Nix, we have 'Greek' and 'Latin' variants. (Not bothering with large orbs here.) But "Nix" is the Coptic rendering, not the metropolitan Greek, and the Coptic alphabet doesn't have case (except artificially in modern transcriptions). The Coptic letter, even lower-case, is ⟨ⲛ⟩. So, should we stick with Moskowitz's initial design, ? More recognizable, I'd think; doubt many would see a down-arrow as a letter 'n'. — kwami (talk) 06:13, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with you about Nix. Thanks for these! Double sharp (talk) 06:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay, swapped the files so that the ⟨ⲛ⟩ variants are the default. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Ⓚ notable as symbol for Eris?

Just discovered this site at the Sternberg Astronomical Institute at Moscow State University, posted in 2016. They're a legit astronomical institute, though I don't know how notable.

Do you think this makes Ⓚ notable enough to be included in our astro symbol articles? After all, the only thing notable about ⯱ is its inclusion in Unicode, as it's used primarily by a single person. However, it's likely astronomer Уральская Валентина Семеновна, who curates the site, copied the symbol from Wikipedia: if you follow the Eris link you'll see they use the WP image of the mythological Eris,[1] and all three symbols (Ceres, Pluto and Eris) look like they could be gifs of the WP glyphs. — kwami (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: I'm not really sure. Also, is Ⓚ really copied from us? I didn't think we used it. Double sharp (talk) 09:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The Russian article on Pluto also cited the Sternberg Astronomical Institute, but dated to 2012, earlier that WayBack records it. You're right: we didn't have it that far back on WP-en. (I'd only checked to 2015, by which time we did.) But the Ⓚ symbol was uploaded to Commons in 2006, and the Russian WP astronomical symbols article has had it since Jan 2011, and the Russian Eris article since Jan 2012, when user Михаил Круглов added it to both. The Eris goddess article on Ru WP has also had this img: since 2006, and that's the same img used by the Russian astronomical institute.[2]

BTW, the uploader in 2006 (user "Eris", now renamed Eris~commonswiki), was challenged about the symbol being a fake, and responded, "No it is real, ask the IAU,"[3] which of course is bogus, so they possibly are the creator. BTW, those two edits (uploading and insisting it's legit) are the only two edits they ever made on any wiki.

Note that Zane Stein's website still doesn't show the Ⓚ symbol,[4] so evidently Zane's never come across it. That suggests that there is no astrological usage to speak of. I suspect it may be a WP invention with the only notable usage (if it is notable) being an institute of Moscow State U copying it off Russian WP. So, yeah, I'd have to say not notable. Answered my own question.

BTW, AFAICT, it was used as the equivalent of a (c) symbol in the Principia Discordia, for what that's worth.[5] — kwami (talk) 09:58, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

BTW, just came across this: as a symbol for an eclipse of the Moon in the US Printing Office style manual. I don't how it makes iconic sense, but there you go. — kwami (talk) 06:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Two more moons.

94 now, S/2004 S 41 and S/2020 S 4. 108.160.120.19 (talk) 02:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, by the time I saw it it was 99. I've added them to the timeline. Thanks for the notification, it's always nice to see the list expand! (But I wonder when more Roman numberings will happen.) :) Double sharp (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The UBC made a press release about these new moons. It says the final count is 145, so we've got 21 more to go! https://science.ubc.ca/news/saturn-now-leads-moon-race-62-newly-discovered-satellites Nrco0e (talk) 21:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Hurray, they're all announced! I've updated the timeline.

And the obvious follow-up question: when can we expect some more Roman numberings? :D Double sharp (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks like the party still hasn't ended, now that a 146th moon was just announced today. S/2006 S 20's orbit is very similar to Phoebe in terms of distance, eccentricity, and inclination, which is a remarkable first among Saturn's known moons. It's definitely a collisional fragment of Phoebe because of this, unlike other purported "Phoebe group" moons that have similar inclinations but wildly different distances and eccentricities.

For your earlier question, the MPC doesn't seem to have moon numbering as their top priority right now, so I can't really speculate when they're going to do that. Nrco0e (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@Nrco0e: Cool. Added to the timeline. :D Double sharp (talk) 21:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The MPC just published a newsletter discussing the new moons, here's what they have to say about new Roman numeral numberings:

The MPC does not have immediate plans to assign permanent roman numeral designations to these new satellites, but those objects that have sufficiently constrained orbits will likely get numbered at some time in the coming year. Once the satellites are numbered, they can be assigned names by the IAU Working Group Planetary System Nomenclature.

Nrco0e (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Saturn moon labels

Speaking of symbols, could we maybe come up w something intuitive for the families of Saturn's moons? I mean, ♣ is a shamrock -- that would be more fitting for Celtic than for Norse. But what would Norse and Inuit be? — kwami (talk) 05:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the playing card suits were chosen for the Jovian and Saturnian moon articles without any real associations. I wouldn't mind swapping the Celtic and Norse labels for this reason, though. I feel like anything more appropriate (Thor's hammer?) is likely to be an incongruous emoji. :) Double sharp (talk) 10:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

...although, come to think of it, maybe the double-dagger ‡ does suggest Mjölnir to some extent! Not sure how diamonds would fit the Inuit group, though. Unfortunately, I don't know their mythology very well. Basically, I only know the names that were used for the Saturn moons.Double sharp (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking it was a bit hammer-like, actually. Plus the least salient symbol for the most numerous group, and the two similarly heavy symbols for the two prograde groups as well. And, well, diamond = ice. — kwami (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Thoughts

Hey, you seem pretty convinced that this particular sense of Outer Manchuria is citogenesis, which definitely my opinion- but it's all just my personal original research! I think what I personally would want to "do next" is petition to get this put on the Wikipedia:List of citogenesis incidents page. I don't know what they require or how that would be done since this is literally literal OR. I guess what I need to find is evidence that someone outside Wikipedia has made this discovery independently??? At least someone beside me knows! I'm not a great editor, but I feel I did find something odd! All thoughts or comments appreciated. Unless you or Lambiam reach out and contact me, I plan to avoid the Outer Manchuria topic on Wikipedia for a while and just research related topics on Wiktionary; I'm afraid that I couldn't hold my own against some of these editors, who may have deep beliefs and opinions. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: What surprises me most is that it seems to be en.wp citogenesis, as I would've expected the term to have first been made up in Chinese. But no: it first shows up on zh.wp in 2005, and on Baidu Baike in 2006, both after the creation of the en.wp article. And it really surprises me a lot because the term is such a natural back-formation if one forgets about the historical meaning of "inner" and "outer" in "Inner Mongolia" and "Outer Mongolia": I would've expected at least some use predating Wikipedia. But I cannot find any. Well, since so much is on Google nowadays, the evidence strongly suggests to me that you are right, though I was really quite shocked to learn it.

Yeah, the list at WP:CITOGENESIS is fairly strict on sourcing. There's a bunch of incidents that you can find on the talk page but not on the main page.

Personally, on WP, I would keep the term around with the current meaning as primary. That's because it has entered widespread use with this meaning. If you go to RS today, you will find it. If you go to Chinese websites discussing longing for lost territories today, you will find it (example). The horse has thus long since bolted. Actually, that's why I was so shocked to learn that it was citogenesis – I was already aware of the term in Chinese before you asked at the refdesk, which I guess gives some anecdotal non-RS evidence of its currency. (Now if this incident had happened just now, instead of 2004, I would of course have a very different opinion.) Mentioning its origin would be interesting, if one day we can find an RS including your investigations. (Or if you write one yourself. :D) Double sharp (talk) 23:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Incredible! Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

File:Caliban artistic.png listed for discussion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Caliban artistic.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. — Ирука¹³ 05:26, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For your contributions on many WP:ELEMENTS articles! 123957a (talk) 14:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

@123957a: Thanks! Double sharp (talk) 14:59, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome! 123957a (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Possible false precision in the melting points of fermium to lawrencium

The melting points in Celsius given for en:Fermium, en:Mendelevium, en:Nobelium, and en:Lawrencium are likely false precision, directly converted from the Kelvin values. They are already mentioned in the articles as predicted, given they have never been synthesized in bulk. en:Rutherfordium does not have false precision, instead it is rounded to the nearest 100 degrees. SVG-image-maker (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@SVG-image-maker: I agree. Double sharp (talk) 04:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@SVG-image-maker: I fixed all of them.

Admittedly, it's true that the original source (the CRC Handbook) does give them all as we used to have them: here's the relevant data reproduced on the LBNL's website. But what you wrote, and the fact that they mysteriously all end in "27", is a giant red flag IMHO. Double sharp (talk) 04:33, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

New message from Jo-Jo Eumerus

Hello, Double sharp. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nonmetal/archive7.
Message added 08:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 08:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Heaviest natural element

When I wrote that the heaviest natural element is uranium, I was well aware of the "Oklo" phenomenon, according to which tiny traces of Pu are produced naturally under extremely rare geological circumstances. So I happily acknowledge that you are technically correct. I do not want to engage in an edit war, especially since I have always admired your edits and regard you as both expert and conscientious in the subjects where I have seen your work. But I just want to raise the question: is it really useful and appropriate, for the purposes to which Wikipedia is devoted, to insist on this technicality? Perhaps one could take your point to an even greater extreme, and say that certain effects of certain cosmic rays on terrestrial matter also creates "natural" entities that may exist perhaps only in quantities of a few atoms/ions/particles on rare singular occasions? But maybe you wouldn't want to list such entities as among the "natural" components of the terrestrial globe, as this could be considered (I would consider it) misleading. So perhaps the best solution for our issue might be to retain "U/92" as heaviest, but add a reference to the Oklo phenomenon? I raise this issue and simply leave it to your judgment, along with my expression of gratitude for your work on Wikipedia.Ajrocke (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ajrocke: Thank you for your kind words! Well, there are a number of issues around the whole "how many natural elements are there" quandary:

• The "it's not that rare a geological circumstance" problem: Np and Pu don't just appear when you have a natural nuclear fission reactor, like what happened at Oklo. It happens in normal pitchblende as well, which you might think of as an "extremely subcritical" reactor, and the Pu produced was already detectable just after Pu was discovered as a synthetic element (10.1021/ja01184a083 – the date is a few years later because understandably, the work was classified).
• The "promethium is rarer" problem: If we exclude elements 93 and 94 for being tiny traces (Pu : U is about 10⁻¹¹ in monazite and pitchblende per 10.1021/ja01151a085, and Np : U about 10⁻¹² in pitchblende per 10.1021/ja01143a074), then we face a different problem: promethium is actually rarer than both of them. The problem with it is that it can only be made in nature from even rarer processes: either uranium has to fission in just the right way (Pm : U in natural pitchblende is on the order of 10⁻¹⁸ per 10.1016/0022-1902(68)80427-0), or it has to be produced by the truly glacial decay of ¹⁵¹Eu (half-life 5 × 10¹⁸ years). So if we were to say Np and Pu are too extreme, then we'd also have to exclude Pm (as well as Fr and At, whose problem is that they only appear in rare side branches of the uranium decay chains), and then we couldn't say all elements up to 92 exist either because 61, 85, and 87 would be gaps. Considering that Fr was actually discovered from natural sources (and At almost was), this seems a bit too much, and I'd rather just say that they all exist in nature since At, the rarest of them, was almost discovered that way. Analytic chemistry, at a time contemporary to their discovery by synthesis, was sufficient to find all but Tc and Pm in nature – those two had to wait a while. Yes, probably even heavier transuraniums exist (²⁴⁷Cm from interstellar sources is a good candidate), but there at least we can plead "yeah, but no one ever found it, so there surely is even less curium than astatine on the planet".
• The "stability" problem: if it is stated as either number without further discussion, then well-meaning corrections are going to happen in both directions. However, an actual discussion of the issues would be fairly complicated and out of proportion for the lede.

Thankfully, we already discuss the issue further down in one of the footnotes, so I've linked that footnote in the lede as well. So, now it says 94 (to avoid the promethium problem), but adds a footnote about it. Hopefully, that's enough to deal with the issue. Double sharp (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Mineral (nutrient)

Your work there is appreciated. David notMD (talk) 09:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

@David notMD: Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 09:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

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"Centaur (fairy chess piece)" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Vanadium

Hi there. After a long break, I am back at chemistry articles :) Currently working on vanadium in Turkish. I was checking the data on the abundance of elements in Earth's crust article, and I found a source saying that the abundance of vanadium is 0.019% of the Earth's crust and that puts the element on the 18th place ("The potentiality of vanadium in medicinal applications", Dieter Rehder). But the article doesn't mention any source for that value. Do you think we should mention on that? Or should we ignore? Nanahuatl (talk) 02:02, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nanahuatl: WebElements agrees that vanadium is 18th, but not CRC. That said, I suspect uncertainties are large enough that one cannot really give an exact number. Double sharp (talk) 04:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source? Nanahuatl (talk) 04:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nanahuatl: Well, it says that the data is averaged from eight reliable sources that differ widely from each other. So I think it's probably best to not give a figure, and instead say that V is pretty common and list a common element V is close in abundance to, like Cl. Double sharp (talk) 04:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

And per "Thermophysical properties of vanadium at high temperature measured with an electrostatic levitation furnace", the density of solid vanadium is 5.7 g/cm³. Yet, the article says 6.11. Can you check that value too? Nanahuatl (talk) 05:55, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

And any source for its Brinell and Vickers hardness values? I couldn't find. Nanahuatl (talk) 07:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nanahuatl: At Densities of the elements (data page) and Hardnesses of the elements (data page) those values are referenced. Double sharp (talk) 07:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! And this content can be in the main article, as the main article is not that long (considering the fact that the lead section won't be merged and each compound has its own article). Any comments? Nanahuatl (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nanahuatl: Yeah, that should be fine. Double sharp (talk) 03:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Triapeirogonal tiling for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Triapeirogonal tiling is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 16:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)