User:Tim Chambers/Abraham Lincoln
"we normally call people who "believe in the Bible" without "believing in Jesus Christ" Jews'" The above quoted comment is very ignorant. The bible is consisted of mainly the new testament which has nothing to do with Judaism. Judaism refers to the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (we don't use the term Old Testament) as the Torah. There are three sections to the Hebrew Bible or as it is called in Hebrew "TaNaKH:" Torah, Prophets, Writings. Jews view Jesus as a Jew who was benevolent but not as a messiah.
Was Abraham Lincoln a Christian? I found this at [1]:
- ...Thanks to the devotion of his mother, Nancy, who died when he was quite young, and then his stepmother, Sarah Bush, Lincoln grew to regard the Bible as a foundational tool for life. Lincoln once said: "This great book [the Bible]...is the best gift God has given to man...But for it we could not know right from wrong."
- ...
- Despite his Christian upbringing, Lincoln did not accept Christ as his Savior until later in life. While he governed the nation by many of the principles written in God's Word, he lacked a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. After the death of his son, Willie, Lincoln heard for the first time of Christ's personal love and forgiveness for each man and woman.
- He wrote: "When I left Springfield, I asked the people to pray for me; I was not a Christian. When I buried my son—the severest trial of my life - I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg, and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ."
- He did not write the above. It first appears attributed unnamed to An Illinois Clergyman, (whereas the rest of the memory book uses actual names) in Osborn H. Oldroyd, ed., The Lincoln Memorial Album—Immortelles (New York: G.W. Carleton & Co., 1882, p. 366); and later in William J. Johnson, Abraham Lincoln, The Christian (Eaton & Mains, New York, NY and Jennings & Graham, Cincinnati, OH, 1913, p. 172). See a discussion of this story in Paul F. Boller & John George, They Never Said It, (Oxford Univ. Press, 1989, p. 91).)
- it has been much embellished with introductory & following "conversations", with graves turned to crosses, with it being actually written by him, ...
- For much of his life, Lincoln was undoubtedly Deist. See [2], [3]
- In his younger days he openly challenged orthodox religions, but as he matured he kept his Deist views more to himself, and would sometimes attend Presbyterian services with his wife. He loved to read the Bible, and even quoted from it, but he almost never made reference to Jesus, and is not known to have ever indicated a belief in the divinity of Jesus.
- Other pastors date a conversion following the death of his son Eddie in 1850, and also following the death of his son Willie in 1862.
- He did not write the above. It first appears attributed unnamed to An Illinois Clergyman, (whereas the rest of the memory book uses actual names) in Osborn H. Oldroyd, ed., The Lincoln Memorial Album—Immortelles (New York: G.W. Carleton & Co., 1882, p. 366); and later in William J. Johnson, Abraham Lincoln, The Christian (Eaton & Mains, New York, NY and Jennings & Graham, Cincinnati, OH, 1913, p. 172). See a discussion of this story in Paul F. Boller & John George, They Never Said It, (Oxford Univ. Press, 1989, p. 91).)
--JimWae 07:35, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
Seems to me the implications of this are that Lincoln began as a Deist (a widespread stance among the earlier Founders of the USA) and later became a Christian. – AnonymousCoward 200.255.83.xxx
- I don't think so. Belief in the Bible is a poor correlation to deist beliefs. The God of the Bible is hardly depicted as a watchmaker. <>< User:tbc
Ok, after I wrote that I thought, no, that probably isn't the right way to say it. :-) But we normally call people who "believe in the Bible" without "believing in Jesus Christ" Jews. You could probably get a best-seller and maybe a spot on Oprah from trying to defend that position (not that I'm suggesting you actually hold it!). :-) – AnonymousCoward 200.255.83.xxx
- Again I have to disagree. I think you'll find that Jews today don't talk in terms of "believing in the Bible" the way Christians do. Jews are deeply grounded in tradition. Furthermore, the range of beliefs of those who "believe in the Bible" is vast. Jefferson, for instance, made a lot of anti-Christian comments, but he also funded Christian missionaries to the Indians. Mark Twain said, "It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." (See [4] for one citation.) <>< User:tbc
Fascinating. I am glad to converse with you, even though we don't agree about everything. :-) (I didn't know that about Jefferson.) And for what it's worth, why do you suppose Twain said that? – AnonymousCoward 200.191.188.xxx
The enjoyment of the conversation is mutual.
From the little I've read about Twain, he was hostile to Christianity. So the context is that the parts of the Bible that he understood were enough to convince him that he wanted no part of it.
<>< User:tbc
tbc: a lot of the Deists had some degree of respect for the Bible, although they often viewed it as mistaken at points. Witness e.g. Thomas Jefferson -- he liked the Bible, although he felt the need to cut it up and remove the bits he disagreed with... But I'd agree that Abraham Lincoln, if he was ever a deist at all, wasn't a very orthodox one...
Maybe the answer to all this is that Abraham Lincoln (like a lot of real world people, I suppose, including maybe even me) didn't fit easily into boxes like "deist" or "Christian". His real religion was Abraham-Lincolnism... :-) -- User:SJK
I found a couple other sources on the Web. [5] seems partisan positiveatheism.org but well-researched. [6] reviews Allen C. Guelzo's book, Abraham Lincoln: Redeemer President and has this to say:
- Numerous biographers tried to twist Lincoln into what the public wanted in the martyred president, "a true Christian." They suggested that he was a closet Christian, who secretly attended prayer meetings, that he had been secretly baptized or had been converted after the death of his son Willie or after Gettysburg.
- Guelzo concluded none of those stories was true. Lincoln, he said, was influenced by remnants of his Calvinist upbringing, which he had rejected long before he became president, and his belief in divine providence as life's guiding force.
This issue is a fascinating example of how historians attempt to reconstruct an individual's character from mere artifacts. I've only spent a handful of minutes researching this on the Web, and already I see how complex and unsatisfying the evidence is. I still think [7] offers the strongest piece of evidence, but I'd like to see the entire letter in which Lincoln says, "I then and there consecrated myself to Christ," before adding it to a Wikipedia article.
<>< User:tbc
http://www.southernevents.org/fake_lincoln_quotes.htm
"Some of Lincoln’s closest friends claimed that he never became a believer, yet for decades he has been quoted as saying, ‘I have never known a worthwhile man who became too big for his boots or his Bible.’ But ‘There is no good evidence that he ever said this...’ Nor did he ever say that, after visiting the graves at Gettysburg, ‘I then and there consecrated myself to Christ. Yes, I do love Jesus!’ Another fake, as Boller proves."
According to that page, that Lincoln quote is bogus.