Template talk:Editnotices/Page/Help:Introduction

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Template-protected edit request on 6 June 2020[edit]

Please replace the contents of the page with 

{{Help Introduction/editnotice}}
{{Simple help page}}

This switches the current notice to a template (so that it can be edited for all the Help:Intro pages simultaneously) and adds an edit notice to help fight WP:CREEP. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 05:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please link to the discussion that led to the decision to add this new "Simple help page" template to all of these pages. Thanks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Sdkb: this is absurd. Don't you know you can make multiple TPERs (or any ER) on one page? Simiply do {{edit template-protected|page1|page2|page3|...}}. It's needless to see multiple request of almost the same thing when it could be condensed to one. See what I did here? Instead of doing that, you put the same request on multiple pages.
Just something to note the next time you need to make a multi-page edit request. {{reply to|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 23:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Can I Log In: Thanks for the advice. I filed them separately since it was slightly easier to submit that way and I wasn't sure it'd be any easier or harder to implement than clumping them together. If it's the case that it's harder, I can certainly submit them as a clump in the future. And if you or anyone else are looking for a centralized place to have discussion, that's at Wikipedia talk:Help Project#New editnotice to help fight WP:CREEP. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sdkb: This is a good opportunity for you to show that you can learn from experience. It may help you on your way to regaining template editor privileges, if you are hoping to earn them. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jonesey95: I have to be straightforward with you: your comment comes off as a bit patronizing given the context. While I am always open to feedback, I do not understand where you have gotten the impression that I have yet to demonstrate a pattern of good decisions related to template editing (or template edit requests) — if it helps you to have some numbers, when I recently tallied up the requests I've submitted, the rough count I got was 29 out of 34 were ultimately approved. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Numbers are definitely not going to help. How does one become confirmed by purely submitting approved SPERs? How does one become extended-confirmed by purely submitting approved EPERs? So if the logic is correct, then submitting enough FPERs is enough to pass RfA. So add that to everyone's RfA criteria. {{reply to|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 04:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sdkb, take a look at User:AnomieBOT/TPERTable, and then use the advice provided above to make that page more reasonable in size. Also, please link to the discussion that led to the decision to add this new "Simple help page" template to all of these pages. That discussion should show a consensus among editors that this brand new template is desired because it will help solve a problem, and that the brand new template should be applied to a large number of pages. As it says on the edit request template, Edit requests to template-protected pages should only be used for edits that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To editor Jonesey95: already added the {{Simple help page}} template to two pages and was going to do the rest after a meal. Then I returned and saw this discussion, and I guess I just don't see what exactly is controversial about adding that template to appropriate pages. Could you please elaborate? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 06:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you're comfortable with it, please go ahead. It just seemed like a signficant change to me, and I was unable to find a discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:54, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To editors Jonesey95, Martin and Sdkb: Comfortable with it, yes, however since Martin has also left an opinion, I will defer to the need for more discussion before making any more changes. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 03:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would also prefer to see a little more discussion. There is a post at Wikipedia talk:Help Project#New editnotice to help fight WP:CREEP and I have linked to it from WP:VPR so maybe wait a few days to confirm that this is not controversial? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MSGJ, sounds fine to me.
I think part of what we're seeing here is that the question of how much scrutiny is needed for edit notice changes is somewhat unanswered. They've traditionally gotten a lot because they're highly protected, but my understanding is that that protection is more for technical reasons than due to any major sensitivity. I'd suggest that an appropriate way to think about changing a page's editnotice might be as roughly one step above changing the banners at the top of the talk page in terms of level of discussion/consensus needed. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some reason you don't add {{Simple help page}} to {{Help Introduction/editnotice}} instead of including both in each individual editnotice. Also, {{Help Introduction/editnotice}} needs a better name; the current one is a subpage of a non-existent page and therefore technically subject to speedy deletion. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pppery, I see them as distinctly separate (albeit somewhat overlapping) notices. Every Help:Intro page should have the Help:Intro notice, but I don't think every simple help page needs it. For instance, WP:About isn't really about editing, so it's unlikely to be mistaken for a sandbox, and Help:Magic words for beginners is a simple version of a more advanced page, but it's on an advanced enough topic that by the time someone comes across it, we can very much hope they'll know not to try asking their question or testing an edit on the help page itself.
Regarding the name, it should be moved back to the original Template:Help:Introduction/editnotice. It was moved to the current title since I forgot in my initial request that {{Help:Introduction/editnotice}} transcludes Help:Introduction/editnotice, but that's been fixed now (and that page is a redirect just in case). {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Help:Introduction still doesn't exist, so the name with the colon is just as bad. * Pppery * it has begun... 19:09, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pppery, so do we want it at Help:Introduction/editnotice, then? It's not a big deal where it's located, so go ahead and move it to whatever title you think is most logical. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sdkb: would you mind combining your requests into one, which can then be put on hold pending the outcome of the current discussion? Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done; sorry about the delay! {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:47, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Consolidated request for Template:Simple help page notice[edit]

This adds an edit notice to help fight WP:CREEP. The request is  On hold pending outcome of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Help Project#New editnotice to help fight WP:CREEP. To avoid a WP:TALKFORK, please direct most comments there. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reopening the request, since the discussion has received no new comments in the past two weeks, and the current !vote count is 6 support/2 oppose, so there appears to be consensus. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Partly done: I cheated slightly. I also haven't added an editnotice to Wikipedia:About as, given that page has a wider audience, it is possibily a little more controversial and will need a specific consensus (or at least no one objecting) on Wikipedia talk:About. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:50, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Callanecc, thanks very much! And fair enough about WP:About; I'll raise it there. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 17:31, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Consolidated request for Help:Introduction series notice[edit]

Please replace the copied and pasted notice with the template version, {{Help:Introduction/editnotice}}, so that any changes to it in the future can be synced. A few pages in the series are missing the notice; please add it there. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:00, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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