Template:Did you know nominations/Zohre Esmaeli

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 10:44, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

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Zohre Esmaeli[edit]

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Zohre Esmaeli, 2011

Created by Optimale (talk). Self nominated at 14:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

  • Struck the hook since i can't see any way "topmodel" is even arguably an attribute that can be objectively determined. EEng (talk) 20:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Date, length checks out. Hook does check out, plenty of mentions in mainstream German press that back the assertion. If you still feel 'top model' is too vague, just put quotation marks around the latter part. Article mainly relying on German-language sources, no close paraphrase concern. Language of article vaguely promotional, but within reasonable limits. --Soman (talk) 11:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The term 'Topmodel' is used in almost all of the German sources, that's why I used it too (I have myself no criteria to determine if someone is a topmodel or not, except to rely on the sources e.g. Zohre Esmaeli: Vom Flüchtling zum Topmodel or Afghanisches Topmodel stellt sein autobiografisches Buch vor etc.). Optimale Gu 12:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Then the hook needs to put "topmodel" in quotes (and really it should be "top model" -- "topmodel" would seem to be a translation from German) with something like "according to Der Spiegel" or whatever. It can't just be stated as a flat fact. EEng (talk) 13:22, 8 March 2015 (UTC)UTC)
  • Btw, QPQ not needed. --Soman (talk) 13:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Of cause the category "top model" may be determined objectively, and is being confirmed by sources in this case. How dare you to strike? Its just bad POV. If you have an issue, try to reword instead. I just had to read User:Yngvadottir User_talk:Yngvadottir#Goodbye_statement - its all confirmed here.
ALT2 ... that Zohre Esmaeli (pictured) fled from Afghanistan to Germany at age thirteen and is now being regarded as only international Afghan top model?
Serten II (talk) 15:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Calm down. I struck ALT0 because I -- a reasonably well-educated and widely read native speaker of English -- didn't know what it was trying to say, except that it obviously had something to do with her being successful. I've now reviewed the sources in the article, and as predicted none of which explain what topmodel means -- tops in earnings, tops in media exposure (measured however) ... what? It's just an undefined term of puffery. I don't object to using it in the hook but it must be, at the very least, put in quotes so the reader won't wonder why he's not familiar with the meaning, and ideally it should be attributed ("X says"). You may recall we had a similar problem with an inscrutable ALT0 on Olim le Berlin, and by the time we were done we had a hook that qualified, or nearly did, for the DYK Hall of Fame. So work with me, please. EEng (talk) 21:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

No reason to be less critical. you claim language issues now, how come? You based your strike on a disability "to see anyway how topmodel can be defined.". I prefer to work with authors that are not behaving like the blind talking about the color of milk but comment on topics they don't ignore completely. You could have tried a small web search to find out that WP has even an article called Supermodel. We don't need a definition for ignorants, but reasonable sourcing for the status. I am disgusted. Serten II (talk) 00:52, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Now you really, really need to calm down. Is there no disagreement sufficiently trivial that is doesn't immediately merit an "POV" accusation? I assure you I don't give a shit about who's a topmodel or not, but I do care about WP looking stupid on its front page. Topmodel is used in the German sources, as you point out, but it's not in English currency, and this is the English Wikipedia. As for defining who is or isn't a "topmodel", let's suppose for a minute that we're talking about the term supermodel. Even though that's a fairly vague term, I wouldn't mind too much describing someone as a supermodel in a hook, if enough sources agreed on that, because it's harmless puffery; but I'd be very wary of saying that X is the "only supermodel from Place Y", thereby excluding everyone else from Place Y from supermodeldom, if there's really no way to say who clearly is or isn't a supermodel. All this reasoning goes double for topmodel, which isn't even a word with which English speakers are familiar. Again I simply suggest that the hook say something like "According to Source S, Miss Whoever is the only 'top model' from A." What would be the harm in that? EEng (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
If you have a small issue, like the local dialect of a small island north of Calais, don't strike without a valid reason but finally start suggesting alternative hooks. WP tends to look even more stupid with people editing and commenting on topics on a "don't give a shit" base. Serten II (talk) 07:24, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea how Calais got into it. My don't-give-a-shit comment regarded your absurd "POV" accusation. I very much do give a shit that WP's main page not look stupid. So I am indeed here on a give-a-shit basis. I'm not really sure how to fix the hook, or I would. EEng (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Since there are issues with the hook, the tick needs to be superseded. The sentence in the article calling her "the only international top model from Afghanistan" is based on the FN1 source (stuttgarter-zeitung.de), and the source does not appear to support that reading. She is called "ein gefragtes Model" (a sought-after/in-demand model), and later, "einziges bekanntes afghanisches Model über die Laufstege der Welt" (one/only well-known Afghan model on the world's runways). "Sought-after" and "well-known" are not at all equivalent to "top". Separate from the sourcing issue, the ALT2 phrase "is now being regarded as only international Afghan top model" has significant grammatical flaws. EEng has a point: when a superlative like "top model" is being put forward, DYK usually has an "according to" qualifier and/or attempts to define it to avoid WP:PEACOCK, since "top" tends to be a subjective judgment rather than objective (barring some clear criteria). BlueMoonset (talk) 20:10, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, BMS. By the way, I try to wear my hair such that my point doesn't show, but I guess it's not working. EEng (talk)
My apologies, I used the wrong ref in the article, it should have been Zohre Esmaeli: Vom Flüchtling zum Topmodel from the newspaper Hessische/Niedersächsische Allgemeine which says "Heute ist die 29-Jährige das einzige afghanische Topmodel der Welt." and which was the reason for my original hook (however, I know now that 'Topmodel' is a German and not an English word). I'm more than happy to delete/remove this nomination, just don't know how to do it. Optimale Gu 13:02, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Optimale, there is no reason to withdraw the nomination of an interesting article; the only thing that's needed is a hook with different wording. ALT3 is a bit more generic, but I think there's support for ALT4 in both the source you quote here and the other source:
I do notice that Google translation proposes "supermodel" as a translation for "Topmodel". The Wikipedia supermodel article would lead me to believe that the term is getting watered down a bit, so I'm not sure we want to invoke it, or if it is indeed the proper direct translation; "supermodel" seems to carry with it the worldwide connotation, while the use of "Topmodel" seems to require the addition of "Welt" to note that this is not just in a single country. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The online English-German dictionaries I checked use indeed 'supermodel' as translation for 'Topmodel' (and only few offer 'top model' too). However, in German the term 'Supermodel' is used quite frequently in addition to 'Topmodel' and there are only very few German sources which use 'Supermodel' in connection with Esmaeli. But I personally have no clue when a model advances to 'top model' or 'supermodel' and more than 95% of the names mentioned in the supermodel article I have never heard before - so I'm not the best to judge if the use of the English term 'supermodel' is justified for her. I'm not sure about ALT3 and ALT4 as the term 'internationally sought-after' isn't used in the sources, the only occurrence of 'internationally sought-after model' as 'international gefragtes Model' is in a small local newspaper "Top-Model Zohre Esmaeli zu Gast in der Stadtbücherei" but maybe the deduction of 'internationally sought-after' from the term 'Topmodel' is enough for a hook (or better use 'internationally working' as it is frequently mentioned that she is working in New York, Paris, Mailand and Berlin)?
which is supported by the "Zohre Esmaeli: Vom Flüchtling zum Topmodel" source Optimale Gu 10:33, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Perfect. EEng (talk) 13:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Reviewer needed to check hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The last three hooks seem to check out. Of the three, I believe ALT3 should be used, as it is the most straightforward; much better to keep it to information about her, than try and make a generalization about all international models. (Note; BlueMoonset seemed to suggest that only the hooks need checking. If a full review is needed, I can come back, but my german is limited. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
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