Talk:Yé-yé/Archive 1

This brief article contains factual errors, as well as not meeting Wikipedia guidelines and standards.

It's not accurate to state yé-yé was performed mostly by girls (presuming that's what the somewhat vague 'generally consisted of' is intended to mean). It seems the popularisation of the genre in recent years has muddied its definition. 'Yé-yé girls' in particular have been the subject of this revived fandom; the result being that many associate the genre only with the female performers of it.

It has also often resulted in any female French 60s performer being mislabelled yé-yé. Claudine Longet is listed here, but was not a yé-yé artist. Jane Birkin is also a stretch to include, probably only thought of as yé-yé because of her marriage to and performances with Serge Gainsbourg who did perform and write some yé-yé material. However, her inclusion could perhaps be argued for.

If April March is to be listed as an artist of this genre, a new heading needs to be started for artists influenced by yé-yé. As it stands, with the article talking about this as a 1960s genre, there's no way to know she's not a 60s performer.

I don't believe I've come across the heading of 'Exemplary Pracitioners' in a Wikipedia genre article before. It should read either 'Artists' or 'Yé-Yé Artists'. Also, exemplary, in this instance, reads as non-NPOV.

The Beatles and American Girl Groups are, it could be argued, influences in the sound, but American rock of the late 50s and early 60s was the primary influence on yé-yé's emergence.

Are the lyrics of 'She Loves You' quoted (without any quotes or explanation) to imply this is where the term yé-yé originated? If so, this is inaccurate because yé-yé predated the song.

The description for 'Yé-Yé Land' is not NPOV ('wonderful world of yé-yé). The three links above it read a little like something is being advertised; a slightly more detailed (but still brief) description would be better. Also, the idea of 'transworld yé-yé girls' is debatable and perhaps better left out until the Wiki is updated to include information about accurate and inaccurate applications of the genre term.

As far as I know, the term yé-yé was only used in France and Spain (and presumably other French and Spanish-speaking countries?). I've yet to see any source confirming other countries used this term. It seems to be more of a recent use of the word, an extension applied to stylistically similar work from other European countries. One problem is the music being labelled such is often not stylistically similar to yé-yé, but to the misapplication of the term (its broader misuse that includes any 60s French pop). Though I'd be willing to learn otherwise; if any contributors have sources that can confirm its use in other European countries, then this information should be included in this article.

Sources on yé-yé are mostly in French, so I don't feel confident writing something on its history myself, so I'm hoping someone will use these suggestions to write a new entry.

The yé-yé article on French Wikipedia (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C3%A9y%C3%A9) has a more accurate description of the yé-yé period, and includes important pieces of information like the years the style existed, a little on its origins (e.g. why the word yé-yé), and a far better representation of artists of the genre.

If anyone is confident to translate this, it would be a good start.

It should also be mentioned in the article that the term was coined by sociologist Edgar Morin, and that it was used as a derogatory term by the press at the time, meant to deride what was seen as a blind embracement of American culture by a gullible youth.

Some of the points I made above the recent (mis)uses of the term yé-yé and about its renewed popularity could also be topics for the article.--Spikedcandy 07:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I've started by cleaning up the links, making them NPOV and more detailed. I've tried to make the descriptions be informative rather than the mildly persuasive tone the previous descriptions had, which read like promotional phrasing. I'm still not entirely sure '24 hours a day' is suitable phrasing - to me it still has a bit of a promotional ring to it. But I couldn't think of a preferable way to phrase it, while still conveying that this station broadcasts all day and all the content is yé-yé (to the best of my knowledge).

I'll declare that my own site was included in the links (not added by myself). I applied the same standards to editing the description of my own site as I applied to the others.

All the blogs are described as including yé-yé artists rather than being 'yé-yé blogs' because none has content that is entirely dedicated to yé-yé artists, but rather, include it among other (related) styles of music. None have strictly yé-yé-only content even as the definition currently stands in this Wikipedia entry - French 60s female pop music. Those that do post mostly French 60s female pop music could arguably still be called a 'yé-yé blog' under this definition; however, this entry is currently inaccurate. So the main reason for the description changes is for them to be in line with future, accurate revisions of this entry.

I'd like to clarify that some of my comments in my earlier discussion contribution were intended to promote further investigation, or to suggest points that may be included by a contributor that has the evidence to make them. In particular, the points about the recent use of the term yé-yé and the renewed popularity of the genre were my own observations. I caution others against using these observations as the basis for any further addition to this entry, unless you have references to confirm these ideas.

Having reviewed the Yé-Yé wiki entries on the Spanish Wikipedia site, I'm confused about the source of the English version of this entry. Its history predates the Spanish entry, yet seems to be a translation of it, with some detail and subtleties lost in the translation. This makes me question if the content was initially from another source.

The German entry mentions The Beatles' 'She Loves You' as an example of a song where 'yeah' is used as a 'padding' lyric. So I suspect that's the source of the inaccuracy in the English entry, where it states that yé-yé is influenced by the Beatles and then quotes the lyrics to 'She Loves You'.Spikedcandy 09:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to know why the links were removed as a 'linkfarm'. Websites and blogs on yé-yé make up a small community, and most link back to each other (though that wasn't true of all the links in here). Does that automatically qualify them as a linkfarm?

I should declare again that my own blog was included in the links. I did not add it, but I edited the description to be more NPOV because it said something like "France Gall and yéyé galore!" (despite my already having written that I didn't like the similarly promotional and emotive tone on the other link descriptions).

I do think it's fair if the blog links are not included - I can see how they're unsuitable. A few of them contain little information about yéyé, and some contain uncredited information from other sites. But I am curious if blogs that contain researched information and reviews are eligible to be linked here. I just familiarised myself with the guideline to linking, and saw that blogs aren't recommended. I've seen them linked in other entries (without protest on the talk page), though, so I'm unclear on that. If a blog is written as informatively as a site, is there a reason it can't be included?

As for the other links, I don't see how removing some of them can be justified, like the Yé-Yé Girls website. Unless someone can explain to me reasons not to, I think I'll re-add the links that seem suitable.Spikedcandy 17:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added 'not verified and 'inappropriate tone' cleanup tags.

Several facts are incorrect. Yé-yé does not literally translate as rock'n'roll. And there are not actually many theories about how the term came into existence (plus they're weasel words). It's not in dispute that it was coined by Edgar Morin in Le Monde in July 1963, but I'm looking for a reliable source I can reference before adding that myself. And the Life magazine article that's cited is absolutely incorrect about where the term comes from. I can't say the early rock influences mentioned are strictly untrue, but citations are needed.

Inappropriate tone is used a few times - 'youthful pop music' is more descriptive than fact-telling; 'France's answer to...' is too informal (and probably non-NPOV). As far as I know, 'yé-yé girls/boys' was not a term actually used in France, so this comes across a bit informally, too. I've changed that to 'performers'.Spikedcandy 04:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)