Talk:World Macedonian Congress

References and sources[edit]

Mainly most of the references and sources do not specify the information they have to confirm. Most of them are nonsense. For example: it is said that the organization was founded in 1899, when it was found in 1991; as a reference to this is a part of the newspaper Makedonsko Sonce a nationalist journal known for giving misinformation. Also, it is said that the organization is "affiliate to UN as international non-governmental organization" and as a reference is taken the Statute of the organization where if you understand Macedonian you can see that there is no mention of the United Nations. And I could go on and on. My point is that this article isn't valid and does not make the criteria for a reasonable Wikipedia article. It would be better if it's cleaned up or deleted. Blok Glo (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is not any mistake. Maybe more references have to be added. -World Macedonian Congress in formed in 1899 in Geneva, however after the fail of Communism in 1990, it was registered as non-government organisation in Macedonia. Formed and registered before the law are 2 different things.

On their non-official web site (http://svetskimakedonskikongres.wordpress.com/about/) they claim that the organisation is found in 1899:

"Formed in 1899 in Geneva, Switzerland. The World Macedonian Congress is an international non-government, non-profit and non-political organization, representing an informal World Parliament of the Macedonians from all parts of Macedonia in the world."

They claim the same on their fb description https://www.facebook.com/pages/World-Macedonian-Congress-%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81/250012685012347?id=250012685012347&sk=info ,however fb is not reliable source

- "as a reference is taken the Statute of the organization where if you understand Macedonian you can see that there is no mention of the United Nations."

If you read all document (maybe 50 pages) you will see that even they have Ambassador/representative in UN, and they have law how the ambassador/representative is chosen. WMC together with Jewish and Croatian World Congress, are affiliate as international organisation toward UN. I will try to find official reference from web site of United Nations. Wingsk (talk) 19:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please, refrain from using unreliable, propagandistic and nationalistic, sources. Do not change the article until the dispute is resolved. The three academic sources below confirm it is nationalistic lobby-organization and was founded in the early 1990s in Republic of Macedonia, not in 1890s in Geneve.

- Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Princeton University Press;

- Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press;

- The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, James Jupp, Cambridge University Press

More, at that time (1890s) in Geneva was founded a Bulgarian organization - the so called Geneve group, knoun also as Macedonian Secret Revolutionary Committee. That fact is recognized even by Macedonian historians as Acad. Blaže Ristovski for example: For instance, all the members who founded the Macedonian Secret Committee in Geneva (1898) were ethnic Bulgarians; they advocated "a Macedonian people", but composed "of various nationalities", using Bulgarian language, Bulgarian Church and Bulgarian education...", Macedonia and the Macedonian people, Blaže Ristovski, SIMAG Holding, 1999, ISBN 9989887004, p. 195. This thessis is consirmed also in an academic publicatian: "We, the People: Politics of National Peculiarity in Southeastern Europe, Diana Miškova, Central European University Press, 2009, ISBN 9639776289, p. 129 as follows: The anarchist organization in Geneva included mostly militants who were natives from Bulgaria and not from Macedonia. The Macedonian historian Ristovski likewise emphasizes that their program of a "Macedonian state" comprised also the Adrianople Thrace, and actually "does not presume [the idea of] a distinct Macedonian national entity".

All the provided sources again:

... World Macedonian congress. Organization established in September 1990 by nationalist activists from Macedonia and the diaspora. Headed by Todor Petrov, the World Macedonian Congress came into the spotlight in 2004... Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. 238.
...World Macedonian Congress, formed by people associated with VMRO-DPMNE, the largest opposition party in the republic whose platform is extremely nationalistic. - Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Princeton University Press, 1995, p. 101.
...With the disintegration of Tito's Yugoslavia the Macedonians in the home country established two international lobby-organizations or World Macedonian Congress. The first was created by the opposition (VMRO-DPMNE) politician Todor Petrov, partly, as he said, to replace the Matica...The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, James Jupp, Cambridge University Press, 2001, ISBN 0521807891, p. 573.
...the probably most prominent World Macedonian Congress (a far-right international lobbying organisation that seeks to represent Macedonians all over the world). - Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, The radical right in Macedonia, Zdravko Saveski, Artan Sadiku, December 2012, p. 1. (International policy analysis) ISBN 978-3-86498-439-6.
Crucial poll fails in Macedonia. Nationalists, who called for the referendum, conceded defeat but some alleged dirty tricks. "In 20% of the country, polling stations were not opened at all," said Todor Petrov of the World Macedonian Congress. "We will demand that the Supreme Court declares it irregular," he added. - Crucial poll fails in Macedonia, BBC NEWS, 8 November, 2004.
The World Macedonian Congress, a nationalist group behind the referendum campaign, has adopted an alarmist stance. Its president, Todor Petrov, said the changes will force members of the ethnic majority out of Albanian-controlled municipalities. "Some radicals will use this as a means of ethnic cleansing. First they will damage windows and fields, burn churches and destabilize the community," Mr. Petrov said in an interview. Boundary Changes Put Ethnic Peace to the Test in Macedonia, By NICHOLAS WOOD, August 30, 2004, The New York Times.
Todor Petrov, the head of the World Macedonian Congress, said foreign powers should crack down on the ethnic Albanian rebels who have seized sections of northern territory and secure the release of Macedonians alleged to have been abducted.The West also should pay Macedonia reparations because the NATO-led peacekeepers and UN administration that run Kosovo had failed to stop guerrillas and weapons flooding into Macedonia to fuel the insurrection, Petrov said. Nationalists block NATO route from Macedonia. Demands include rebel crackdown, August 19, 2001, Chicago Tribune.

Now about Nice Dimovski again:

..."Скандалот со расистичката „Македонска молитва“. Терминот „Македоноиди“ беше промовиран од секретарот на Светскиот македонски конгрес (СМК) Ниче Димовски во неговата „Македонска Молитва“, кога лично Господ им се обраќа на Македонците: „Вашата мајка Земја со три раси ја населив: белата – Македоноиди; жолтата – Монголоиди; и црната – Негриди...“ - In English: The Scandal with the racist "Macedonian Prayer". The term "makedonoidite" was promoted by the secretary of the World Macedonian Congress (WMC) Dimovski in his "Macedonian Prayer" - Кој сака да го смени идентитетот на Македонците во „Македоноиди“? Окно" 19.02.2012, Жарко Траjaноски.
..."Сега г-не Димовски сакам да ве прашам за Молитвата за Александар во која се спомнува дека е дојдено времето Македонско, па еве сега да ми кажете дали навистина е дојдено времето македонско? Н.Д. - Да навистина е дојдено времето Македонско, значи ние бевме како еден пациент во кома, и сега се будиме од таму после 2000 години,... - "Now Mr. Dimovski want to ask for prayer for Alexander which mentions that the time of the Macedonians has come, so here now to tell me if indeed the Macedonian time has come? Dimovski: Yes indeed the Macedonian time has come, so we were till now as a patient in a coma, and now we wake up from there after 2000 years... Ексклузивно интервју во живо со Ниче Димовски во Радио Мелбурн. Exclusive live interview with Nice Dimovski in Radio Melbourne.
...Режисерот на спотот Ниче Димовски ги обвинува политичарите, а не здравиот разум за реакциите. Спотот „Македонска молитва“, кој го режираше Ниче Димовски, а кој се прикажа на Македонската телевизија некаде околу Нова година предизвика многу реакции со тезите кои ги пласираше, како таа дека целата бела раса е зачната од Македонците или дека Господ постојано на Македонците-цареви им давал, како што и сега им дава, ама тие на сите ги раздаваат...... The director of the video Dimovski blames the politicians, not common sense reactions. The video "Macedonian Prayer," which was directed by Dimovski, and was displayed on Macedonian television sometime around the New Year caused many reactions to the thesis that it marketed... „Македонска молитва“ против здравиот разум ("Makedonska Molitva protiv zdraviot razum"/"Macedonian Prayer against the sane mind") by Sunčica Unevska, online edition of "Utrinski Vesnik" („Утрински Весник“) daily, 1 March 2009.

Also, check again: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and espesially Self-published and questionable sources and Biased or opinionated sources as for example in our case is the statute of WMC. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is nonsense. Why the paragraph about "2004 Referendum" and "Leadership" were removed. All references were reliable. Why even infoboz war removed? Now it saw that Todor Petrov is Secretary General instead of president(chairman). WMC has another Secretary General.

(You can see the total list of the leadership here) http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=9B6E58CC701AA74AA034E0E2A2F118F8

This 2 paragraphs have to be returned back.

About the claim that WMC is ultra-nationalistic organisation, it is not valid. If you read all source, you will see that they said that WMC is nationalistic organisation, but NOT ultra-nationalistic. There is HUGE difference between nationalist and ultranationalist. It should be corrected.

In addition, about reliability of Makedonsko Sonce, it is owned by Gjorgjija Atanasoski, who is Honourable President of WMC.

About foundation, WMC claim that it is formed in 1899. In Macedonian History student book it is also claimed that it was formed in Geneva in 1899 as Macedonian Government in exile. On their web page, their non-official web page and some other web pages also claim this date. Wingsk (talk) 11:36, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please, propose your variant and reliable sources here for discussion. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 11:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have readded the undisputed sections and information to the article. Jingiby (talk) 13:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. Do you agree the old infobox to be returned without disputed elements? 2. Do you agree See Also section to be changed by addiing new categories such as Macedonian diaspora, Macedonian autonomy referendum, 2004 etc? 3. Do you agree into infobox, the term "far right" to be replaced with nationalist?? The term "far right nationalism" is too strong, we can agree that is is nationalistic organisation, but not fur right.

Reasons: The reference from Zdravko Saveski, Artan Sadiku "The radical right in Macedonia" is not reliable. Both authors are literally no one. In addition, one of them is albanian, and this is NOT neutral point.

For resources I propose this books:

Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia By Dimitar Bechev, p. 238 http://books.google.mk/books?id=ilGfCIF4Ao4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Historical+Dictionary+of+the+Republic+of+Macedonia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ex27Ub3GBITmPMLngJgJ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Historical%20Dictionary%20of%20the%20Republic%20of%20Macedonia&f=false

Also, in all references mention by Jingiby (except Zdravko Saveski, Artan Sadiku), WMC is mention as nationalistic organisation, not as far right nationalistic. Wingsk (talk) 14:12, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Jingiby (talk) 14:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I edited as we agreed. In addition, I uploaded one photo and on the formation date of 1990 I added WMC's claimed date too. If you agree with the changes, we can close the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wingsk (talk • contribs) 18:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Verfify source[edit]

One line reads: "The organization considers itself as a non-formal World Parliament of the Macedonians from all parts of [the region of] Macedonia and the whole world". Please verify and provide evidence that when the WMC and the government in Skopje says 'from all parts of Macedonia' it actually means the region (i.e. from Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania) and not the Republic (i.e. from all parts of the Republic of Macedonia). Politis (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

No notice of notability, pretty much unreferenced, etc., I do not see why the "Macedonian Prayer (video)" article should exist as a separate. I think it should be merged into the World Macedonian Congress because of lack of notability. Nemojda (talk) 11:24, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Jingiby (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is not claim made by World Macedonian Congress, nor officially supported by the organisation. The video is made by a man who is member of WMC, however it is something private. I have never sow that World Macedonian Congress or some of its members have made any official support toward the video. The year after Macedonian Player appeared, the author of the video stepped down from being vice-president of WMC, and after 2-3 years he was elected as Secretary. Maybe his stepping down has any relations with the video, maybe not. In any way, when there is a huge difference between private action and official organisation actions. Ljube Boškoski was also a member of WMC, he was one of his founders and menagers in the early stage. Does it mean that we have to include him in the article? No. The WMC does not have any official relation with the video.Also, in the article, it should be noted that WMC never officially supported the author of the video. Wingsk (talk) 03:47, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then, I suppose, the section on the video should be removed from this article, and the Macedonian Prayer article should be deleted. Nemojda (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since it is not claim made by World Macedonian Congress, I think that the section about the video should be removed from the article. They are really a lot of people who has been envolved with the WMC and its leading, the HQ of WMC changes every year, obviously we have to make a difference between their acts and the official position of WMC. Wingsk (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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