Talk:Wings of the Golden Horde

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Old talk[edit]

The White Horde was not founded by Batu, but rather by Orda, Batu's brother. Batu founded the Blue Horde. See:

Genghis Khan
Jochi
Golden Horde
The Khans of the White Horde and
The Mongol Khans (includes map showing relative positions of Blue and White Hordes). -- Takwish 18:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More references re location:

White Horde located easterly of Golden Horde [1]
"Over the first quarter of the fourteenth century, a semiautonomous Mongol khanate gradually emerged, known as the White Horde (Ak Orda) and encompassing the Syr Darya region. The khan of the White Horde, who wintered around Sygnak, controlled the steppe northwest of the Aral Sea as far as the Ishim and Sarysu rivers." [2]
" The Khanate of the White Horde of Siberia was established as one of the successor states to the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan . The first Khan, Orda was the second son of Jochi, the eldest son of Genghis Khan. The White Horde of Siberia occupied the southern Siberian steppe from the east of the Urals and the Caspian Sea to Mongolia." [3]
" The Kazakh Khanate was established on the basis of Ak Horde (White Horde) that had been founded on the 13th century. The main founder of this khanate was Orda Ecen who was the grandson of Jenghiz Khan. Pursuant to the death of Cuci in the year of 1227, Batu Han divided the Golden Horde State into two branches as the right and left wings. He governed the western section of the Country (Ulus) and he gave the Eastern section of the country to his elder brother, Orda Ecen. From that date on, this Country was called as Ak Orda (White Horde). The capital city of this country was settled around the Balkas Lake and then, it was moved to Signak." [4]
"Europe was abandoned and Batu returned to the north of the Caspian Sea. There, he established his capital at Sarai Batu (Old Sarai), and transformed his "inherited lands" into a kingdom, or Khanate. Batu's Khanate became known as the Blue Horde. Batu's two brothers, Orda and Shiban, who also participated in the campaign also formed their Khanates. Orda's Khanate became known as the White Horde, located east to Batu's Blue Horde." [5] -- Takwish 15:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern (Blue) and Western (White) Hordes[edit]

The terminology in the Turkish and English sources is the same. The only difference is some Turkish sources uses "Gök"/"Kök" (eastern) not blue ("mavi" in Turkish) as in English sources. White (western) is the same "Ak" (white). In addition, I checked Encyclopedia Americana article which is written by Edward L. Keenan from Harvard University. There Blue is used for Eastern and White for Western Hordes. However, there was a difference between Russian chronicles and islamic souces (Arabian and Egyptian) (V.G. Tiesenhausen's work in 1884). This difference is explained in B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski's state-of-art book "The Golden Horde and its Downfall". The major work were done by Russian scientists (A.Romaskevic and S.L. Volin 1941, B.D. Grekov and A.Y.Yakubovski 1950, G.Vernadsky 1953). On the other hand, the terminology used in wiki-article is not correct. The wiki-article terminology does not reflect the common usage. ~~Actually, maybe it's better to rename these articles as Eastern and Western Hordes, which totally removes the terminology disambiguity~~ (actually there is no such difference between Turkish, Russian and English sources). Regards. E104421 15:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved it the general artcle. Because the eastern part was called Blue Horde. I think early prominent scholars might have confused and others quickly followed it, however, the Russian historians did correct.--Enerelt (talk) 10:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Toqtamish[edit]

The section Left Wing asserts that Toqtamish had been defeated in 1295-1296 . I think the date must be reviewed. He lived one century later. (See List of Khans of the Golden Horde). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Blue/white Problem[edit]

For the reason given in footnote 1 of the main article, I think it might be wise to replace most references to blue and white hordes with east and west wings or halves in most of the articles that use them. Does anyone have any suggestions? Does anyone have another source for the blue/white problem? Benjamin Trovato (talk) 02:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]