Talk:William Matthews (priest)/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Farang Rak Tham (talk · contribs) 12:14, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]


I will be doing this review.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:14, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overview[edit]

The articled is in good shape, and professionally written. It will not require much work anymore.

1. Prose:
2. MOS:
  • Though not important for GA, usage of friar (Fr.) as a title violates MOS, WP:HONOR. Same holds for Dr.
3. References layout: A number of books cited do not have isbn numbers. Please add those, or if they are old books, use oclc numbers instead, the ones from Worldcat.
4. Reliable sources: Yes.
5. Original research: None found.
6. Broadness: Article is very broad. Though some suggestions have been made during the FA review to expand the article, in its current form, it is more than sufficiently broad for GA standards.
7. Focus: The article is very detailed, sometimes going beyond the boundaries of what concerns the subject of the article, though not often so. Sentences like During his presidency, the board of directors passed a resolution that the president should live at the college, however, this did not become the case until the presidency of his successor should be removed, if relevance to the subject cannot be established.
8. Neutral: Yes.
9. Stable: article is stable.
10-11. Pics: Relevant and properly licensed.
@Farang Rak Tham: Thank you for the review so far. I have added OCLC numbers to all of the books referenced. One of the books was never assigned an ISBN, so I have included its LCCN number in addition to the OCLC. As for the prefix of Fr. (which actually stands for father, not friar), I do not believe it is covered by WP:HONOR. If you look at WP:NCCL, it discusses the naming conventions for clergy, and it does not mention priests or the use of Fr. specifically, which seems to imply there is no prohibition of it. Also, Fr. is not an honorific prefix per se, as the honorific prefix for Matthews is The Very Reverend, as indicated at the top of the infobox. Fr. is just a pre-nominal prefix.
It is not an issue for GA, but will certainly be addressed by editors when upgrading to FA. Here is a relevant discussion of this policy with regard to a film about Christian priests.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree about point 7 and I have removed that statement. Ergo Sum 23:15, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed review per section[edit]

I will continue with a detailed review per section, pending a response by you.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)Edited.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Early life[edit]

  • In 1781, Matthews, aged eleven, witnessed British troops burn part of his family's estate during the American Revolution. Relevance?
It's an interesting tidbit about his childhood that also provides contextual information about the period of time in which he was raised. Ergo Sum 17:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Family[edit]

  • Among these ancestors was Dr. Thomas Matthews, one of the first settlers of the Maryland colony, who had been granted four thousand acres of land in Port Tobacco, Maryland by the Lords Calvert. One of his cousins was Charles Carroll of Carrollton, the only Catholic signatory of the Declaration of Independence. Relevance? In contrast to the part on relatives entering priesthood, this part doesn't say much about the subject of the article.
This speaks to his ancestry and the wealthy family from which he came. Ergo Sum 17:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

St. Peter's Church[edit]

  • In 1820, Matthews was put in charge of establishing the second Catholic parish in Washington, St. Peter's.: By the bishop, I presume?
Yes, it must have been the bishop (although the source doesn't say that explicitly). I will clarify.
  • ... who, of his own accord, arranged for Archbishop Ambrose Maréchal to be able to use the diplomatic pouch of the French ambassador ...: How did he do that? Did he do this through his connections of the time he studied in Belgium?
It is not specified, but it is more likely that it was due to his connections with Washington politicians. Not sure that should be said in the article, though, because I don't have any source that says so. Ergo Sum 17:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Miraculous event[edit]

  • Please rephrase section title for encyclopedic tone.
  • The impossibly quick restoration of her health ...: Idem dito. E.g.: "Her quick recovery, judged by physicians to be impossible, ..."
Is there a phrasing that you would recommend. I'm not sure how to phrase the section title without either seeming affirmative of the miracle or skeptical of it. I will rephrase that sentence. Ergo Sum 17:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As section header, I would recommend something along the lines of "the case of Ann Mattingly"--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC) Or "Ann Mattingly's recovery".--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Just made it so. Ergo Sum 17:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Academic career[edit]

  • ... resigning the presidency at the same time. How was his presidency related to the Jesuits? Did he leave because of Kohlmann? If so, you should make this more clear.
It is not clear if there was any connection with Kohlman. I wouldn't want to impose my own interpretation. However, the relationship between the presidency and the Jesuits is explained in the preceding paragraph, hence his entrance into the Jesuit novitiate. Ergo Sum 20:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

During Matthews' presidency, the towers of Old North Hall were completed. By 1806, Matthews had become vice president of Georgetown College and in 1808, a member of its board of directors;[32] he remained a director of Georgetown until 1815, and possibly beyond.[33] He was elected president on February 28, 1809, later entering the Jesuit novitiate, which was highly atypical. Although working at the college, Matthews did not elect to live there, instead living at St. Patrick's Church.

What part explains the relation between the college and the Jesuits? I am still confused.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. The source that I have does not state a connection between the two events. However, I would surmise that the connection is that Georgetown was run by the Jesuits. Therefore, if he became disillusioned with the Jesuits, he might also want to resign the presidency. This is just my interpretation. Do you think that should be included? Ergo Sum 03:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Yes, that would make things much more clearer :-) --Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified. Ergo Sum 15:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... which considered itself a continuation of the Jesuits in America.[note 3] Perhaps you should move the note into the body of the text. It is required to understand the narrative, not optional, especially the part on friction.
The footnote is a bit too big to put in the main body. However, I added a bit of explanation, which I think clears it up. Ergo Sum 20:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You still need to state explicitly that there was friction between the two. It just isn't clear yet.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ergo Sum 03:11, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two of his pupils were Charles Boarman, the son of one of the college's professors, who left Georgetown College to join the Navy, and William Wilson Corcoran, who became the first president of Georgetown's alumni association in 1881. What is the relevance of this passage?
They give historical context to the time during which he taught and the type of people who were sent to the school at that time (which has changed significantly over time; see History of Georgetown University). Ergo Sum 20:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Washington Seminary[edit]

  • In the previous section Matthews was disillusioned with the Jesuits, but now he is working with them again. This raises questions for the reader, which should be explained.
I think it's fairly clear. It is explained that he wanted assistant curates, which the Jesuits could provide.
Added further explanation. Ergo Sum 03:14, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • George Ironside: please state briefly who this is.
Added an explanation. Ergo Sum 20:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first paragraph, there are some parts confusing. What part exactly is ... contrary to the initial intention of Matthews and the Jesuits? The building next to the parish became a seminary, as opposed to... what exactly?
Clarified. Ergo Sum 20:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... forbidden from accepting tuition ...: maybe just remind the reader briefly that this was because of their vow of poverty, or explain whatever the reason was for this.
The reason for this was a short-lived historical anomaly with relatively obscure and esoteric origins. I just rephrase so that it says "all Jesuits," which should be clearer. Ergo Sum 20:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fascinating!--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... the Seminary was suppressed ... was closed down is clearer.
Suppression is a canon law concept that is subtly different from "closed down." I wikilinked "suppression" for clarification. Ergo Sum 20:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the start of his presidency until 1827, Matthews worked in tandem with Fr. Jeremiah Keiley, who was a Jesuit; Matthews oversaw the finances and admissions of the school, while Keiley oversaw the curriculum as the superior of the Jesuit house. Move this up a little, the order is backward.
Done. Ergo Sum 20:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • One final question, does the new building refer to a house of Jesuit priests, or is this something else?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It refers to the building that they intended to use as the house of Jesuit priests. Ergo Sum 03:14, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Washington Library[edit]

  • His purchase was three times the required amount of $12. Too detailed. Just replace by adding generously (purchasing) to the previous sentence, or something similar.
Condensed the sentences. Ergo Sum 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... purchased a Masonic lodge ... Too detailed, remove detail, and don't wikilink anything not essential.
Many places in this article reference local history and landmarks, of which this is one. Ergo Sum 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... (as it had frequently moved prior to that) ... Separate into another sentence, starting this paragraph.
Not sure what you mean here. Ergo Sum 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please separate the sentence in brackets into a separate sentence, for example, as the first sentence of the paragraph.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ergo Sum 03:19, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In order to acquire the collection, Matthews made a personal loan of $1,000 to the library. Less detail.
Condensed the sentences. Ergo Sum 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's necessary to include this so as to provide a reliable reference for the succession boxes at the bottom. Also, predecessors and successors are almost always considered notable for officeholders. Ergo Sum 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil's comments[edit]

and oversaw the continuity of the school during suppression and financial insecurity - I dont know what "suppression"means here. Ceoil (talk) 02:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is wikilinked later in the article. Not sure if it's appropriate to link it in the context of the lede. Ergo Sum 20:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why would it not be appropriate?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ergo Sum 03:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Matthews was the maternal uncle of Senator Richard T. Merrick and Judge William Matthews Merrick.[12] probably belongs in "early life" rather than "death". Ceoil (talk) 06:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Moved. Ergo Sum 20:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As the troops advanced to within two blocks of St. Patrick's Church, the roof of the building caught fire. - the cause/effect is missing here. Ceoil (talk) 07:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reader can infer that the fire was the result of the approaching troops' plundering. Ergo Sum 20:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Inferring makes for rough reading. Please mention the plundering.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ergo Sum 03:22, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Visitation Academy[edit]

  • ... Mother Juliana, who was Matthews' niece ...You should mention this from the first time you introduce the Daughters of Charity.
Done. Ergo Sum 03:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Death and legacy[edit]

  • ... it was observed that the body was remarkably intact ... It is true that the article cited mentions this, but the article does not mention the significance of this in Catholic faith. Lacking such context, better to delete.
Added context in Catholicism in a footnote. Ergo Sum 04:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... above the doors of the cathedral ... Which cathedral? The one in Baltimore? If so, mention this from the start.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 08:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified. Ergo Sum 03:29, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead, revisited[edit]

Just one final thing I forgot: I have checked the lead once more and found one phrase that I couldn't trace in the body of the article: ... became a close adviser to ... Washington's political leaders. What content does this refer to?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Farang Rak Tham: The content is from the fourth paragraph under St. Patrick's Church. However, I just reworded that lede sentence to more accurately reflect the content. Ergo Sum 00:36, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions[edit]

Helpful suggestions; will add as I read through

  • and oversaw the continuity of the school during suppression and financial insecurity - I don't know what "suppression" means in this context.
Added a wikilink for further clarity. Ergo Sum 04:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Matthews was the maternal uncle of Senator Richard T. Merrick and Judge William Matthews Merrick.[12] probably belongs in "early life" rather than "death".
Moved. Ergo Sum 04:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the troops advanced to within two blocks of St. Patrick's Church, the roof of the building caught fire. - the cause/effect is missing here. Ceoil (talk) 07:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified. Ergo Sum 04:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

May 2018[edit]

Will continue tomorrow morning. Good evening!--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to continue, but I see you haven't caught up yet. So I'll give you some more time to finish the above comments first.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:38, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Farang Rak Tham: Just caught up. Thanks for your diligence. Ergo Sum 17:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seven days have passed now. I am putting the article on hold, as to give you more time.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 07:17, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Farang Rak Tham: Understood. I believe I'm all caught up now. Ergo Sum 04:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is just one issue remaining (underlined), after which I will pass the article.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 11:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Farang Rak Tham: I think I have addressed it now. Ergo Sum 15:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Everything has been addressed now. I am passing the article for GA. You have been a professional and quick nominator. Good luck with FA! Meanwhile, if it is convenient for you to review one of my articles at GAN, it would be much appreciated.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 10:59, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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