Talk:will.i.am

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Requested move 30 August 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. While there certainly seems to be precedent, the opposition presents compelling evidence on how the precedent might be set without proper due process. The policy is a grey area, with multiple polices which ultimately contradict and support both variations. One can argue both of them are common and find sources for such, but to what extent does it apply (to sylization as such). A reminder to supporting parties that COMMONSTYLE isn't policy and it's the community that dictates policy (let's say through this RM), not the other way round. At this juncture, I don't see a consensus for a move and closing as such. Feel free to conduct a policy discussion at MOS to seek a proper outcome for stylized pagenames. (non-admin closure) --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 06:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– Following a successful move at Talk:Deadmau5 which also used a lowercase stylisation, I will completely rehash my points made there.

In a nutshell: all-lowercase is a stylisation, and in almost all cases, things must be written in plain text on Wikipedia. Points from previous requests at Talk:Deadmau5 defending the lowercase stylisation included subjects listed in MOS:LCITEMS such as "eBay" and "iTunes"/"iPod" etc. While these can also be interpreted as stylisations, it is important to note that they are not all-lowercase. They contain a capital letter where the "words" start, the lowercase letters that preceed it are prefixes. Also worth noting is that eBay reached a consensus after it was added to the dictionary with that spelling. I think it's important to note that Adidas, despite its consistent lowercase stylisation, is titled with a capital letter, because of how sources refer to it (which I will cover shortly), and because it is gramatically correct.

A previous request to capitalise the "W" eight years ago was opposed by an editor stating that "[the] official web site has lowercase all over it", which is irrelevant, because Wikipedia is a tertiary source, not a secondary source. An MoS guideline supporting my case is MOS:TMCAPS. It states that mixed capitalisation should follow what independent reliable sources write it as, (not the "official web site") which upon looking at the references section, is very mixed between will.i.am and Will.i.am (among other capitalisations), and cannot be helped. TMCAPS states "when sources are mixed, follow the standard formatting and capitalization used for proper names", which is Will.i.am.

Exactly the same applies to Apl.de.ap. I could not find any other articles with his name in the title, so if there are any please move them too.

I went to Talk:Deadmau5 off the back of MOS:ALLCAPS which forces subjects stylising their name in capital letters to have it written in proper name text. After moving JES (musician) to Jes (musician), having REZZ moved to Rezz, and rewriting all instances of EDEN (musician) to Eden (musician), I felt it was unjust to darastically change the capitalisation their names due to our rules and leave lowercase stylisations untouched. In my opinion, all-lowercase should be treated equally to ALLCAPS but inverse.

I hope my points are understood and a consensus is reached. Lazz_R 10:13, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The articles which stat with "will" in your request actually already are ate "Will", but they have the "lowercase title" template at the top of the article to change the appearance of the title only. These pages should probably be removed from the actual move request, as you are not really asking for a move of these. Fram (talk) 10:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The mover at Talk:Deadmau5 stated "consensus to move the pages or to remove the lowercase title template as applicable". Having the main articles requested to be "moved" to a lowercase title will inform those that have landed on them (rather than the song articles alone) that this request is happening. So yes, the pages aren't actually being moved, but in my opinion it is worth displaying. Lazz_R 10:37, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose, lower-case is by far the common and most recognizable in English form of this artist's name. See this n-gram for use up to 2008. These titles aren't broke, no need to fix them. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I've read the relevant policies and guidelines and even some of the previous move discussions such as that at k.d. lang, which each one of the examples given in that discussion of using lowercase spelling has been moved to upper-case. I think that the policy is out of touch with the community standard and I also believe that individual stage-names should not be exempt from the style-guide that any company, film, TV series, book, etc, has to comply with. I support moving all articles and removing the lowercase template from those that use it. --Gonnym (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:LCITEMS MOS:LCITEMS (why aren't all MOS links also at WP redirect links?) states "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)". Randy Kryn (talk) 16:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've read that and decided that WP:IAR applies here as that part of the guideline ignores a good MoS that works for the other 99% of articles that "wish to not have their name capitalized" or others that wish to be stylized. --Gonnym (talk) 20:48, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Gonnym, and good, it's always nice to see a decent "ignore all rules" argument. As for rules, please see the discussion below about MOS:LISTCAPS, which is applicable. And the eleven song titles listed certainly fall into lower-case, as not being the first word of a sentence (although the present and stable lower-case title itself is entirely justified per guideline language and per k.d. lang) and I would hope the nominator would consider dropping those. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The disambiguation word/phrase used should match the parent article, that has always been the case and there is no need to change that here either. --Gonnym (talk) 10:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in part. Not capitalizing it within a sentence is one thing, but it should still be capitalized at the beginning of an article title and at the beginning of a sentence. However, I don't think it needs to be capitalized within the parenthetical disambiguation. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:40, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rreagan007, no, please see MOS:LISTCAPS, which states "The initial letter in a sentence[a] is capitalized. This does not apply if it begins with a letter which is always left uncapitalized (as in "eBay"; see § Items that require initial lower case, below), although it is usually preferable to recast the sentence", and the n-grams show that there is no use of will.i.am's name being upper cased. And at a very basic minimum (although "k.d. lang" is actually used as an example in MOS:LCITEMS as a name always lower-cased, and that really should apply here and void this nomination) the entries nominated above which use the lower-case will.i.am as the album's or song's descriptor should always be lower-cased. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Randy Kryn Per MOS:LCITEMS: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference." Rreagan007 (talk) 21:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said above: "MOS:LISTCAPS states "The initial letter in a sentence[a] is capitalized. This does not apply if it begins with a letter which is always left uncapitalized (as in "eBay"; see § Items that require initial lower case, below), although it is usually preferable to recast the sentence" (boldfacing mine). The n-grams show that there is no use of will.i.am's name being upper cased, so this guideline language augments and overrides the MOS:LCITEMS quote you provided. This is one of those times where the "vote" could be 10-1 in support and I think that the close or a move review, using the guideline language provided, will likely go with 'oppose'. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • And as I said above, MOS:LCITEMS clearly states that personal names are always capitalized at the beginning of a sentence regardless of personal preference. A more specific rule overrides a general rule, so this specific rule on always capitalizing personal names at the beginning of a sentence overrides the general rule you cite. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:41, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • We can do this all day. MOS:LCITEMS: "When such a name is the first word in a sentence...the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference." Rreagan007 (talk) 02:20, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not see a statement in MOS:LCITEMS saying that the first letter of "k. d. lang" would be an exception to the rule about capitalizing the first letter of a personal name at the start of a sentence, and I do not see any sentences in the k. d. lang article that start with that string, and I'm not sure how much weight to assign to that one article. The example that I see as an exception for "a letter which is always left uncapitalized" when starting a sentence is "eBay", which is not a personal name. An article title does seem rather similar to the start of a sentence – e.g., Wikipedia style is to format article titles in "sentence case", which implies that an article title would be formatted in a similar manner as the start of a sentence about the topic. I personally tend to dislike all-lowercase formatting, as with "adidas", as a vanity styling similar in spirit to using all-caps merely for emphasis, and I tend to consider it more of a problem than mixed case / camel case, as with "eBay" and "GoPro". "Will.i.am" does not seem confusing at all – it is not something strange like "K. d. lang" would be. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The guideline language as outlined above seems to support lower-case, which fits long term stability, common name, and most familiar name in English. Your reasoning that "'Will.i.am' does not seem confusing at all – it is not something strange like 'K. d. lang' would be." (quote marks mine) should be addressed. I'm glad you think "K.d. lang" would look strange, as it would give the viewers and readers of Wikipedia a lesser opinion of the site than before they ran across such a fiasco of upper-casing. It's exactly the same feeling that will.i.am's fans, music fans, and general readers like me would have, that the upper casing would look strange. Presenting Will.i.am as the title of this article would WP:ASTONISH one and all, because it is not his name. His name is lower-cased, as attributed to by the n-gram which found no results for the upper-cased version of the name. If it's his universally known name, upper-casing the 'w' would look just as odd to millions of people as K. d. lang would look to you. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:59, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hardly see how writing the name in correct English grammar could be taken as far as to call it WP:ASTONISH. It's not like we wouldn't mention the stylisation in the lead, either (Will.i.am (stylized as will.i.am)). On a side note, "capitalization used for proper names" for "k.d. lang" would be K. D. Lang, not the first initial only. Lazz_R 12:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support please yes. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose deadmau5 is questionable but this isn't. WP:COMMONAME (part of a policy) overrides guidelines. All sources call Adams "will.i.am" which WP:MOSTM explicity states to use. Really, picking article by article is absurd. The next article will be k.d. lang for sure, and eventually we will be discussing if "Itunes" is the best name because of "encyclopedic style". © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 20:11, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see no wording in WP:COMMONAME which says how the name should be formatted (i.e. style), it just says which name to use. "Will.i.am" and "will.i.am" are the same name, just in different style. If COMMONNAME would have wanted to deal with the styling of the name, it would have mentioned it or given an example of it, as such the policy cited has no bearing in this discussion. --Gonnym (talk) 17:34, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just because the word "style" is not used, doesn't mean it is not there: "the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred". Also, you are not contesting the MOSTM comment, which is the primary reason this article is wanted to be moved, which as well says: "When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should examine styles already in use by independent sources. From among those, choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner. Do not invent new styles that are not used by independent sources." Of course it also says "choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner" but we also have iTunes, eBay, et. al, that are clearly not standard English, and are the preferences of their owners. So, why is iTunes correct, and will.i.am incorrect? Why is deadmau5 correct but deadmaus incorrect? The former is also a preference of the trademark owner. © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 16:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed with Gonnym here, the policy is COMMONNAME, not COMMONSTYLE. Will.i.am is the same name as will.i.am, but the latter is its stylised capitalisation. "Do not invent new styles that are not used by independent sources", "editors should examine styles already in use by independent sources", and "choose the style that most closely resembles standard English" all apply to this move. BarrelProof has plenty of sources below using the grammatically correct name, so this is not inventing a new style at all. It's examinging what is in use by independent sources, and closly resembles standard English. Deadmaus was moved back to deadmau5 because that is a grade A example of "invent[ing] new styles that are not used by independent sources". Lazz_R 12:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are sources for Deadmaus, so I don't get your point about it. Once again I question why is iTunes correct, but will.i.am incorrect? And, why is deadmau5 correct but deadmaus incorrect? © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 21:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, well I can't argue why iTunes is correct or incorrect. Those sources don't seem particularly important or reliable, but that is irrelevant, well done for finding some. Fact is, it is not gramatically incorrect to have a number in a name. What do you suggest Noah23, 6ix9ine, or Eiffel 65 should be called? Noah (rapper), Sixnine, and Eiffel (Italian band)? Numbers are very different to capital or lowercase letter stylisations. Lazz_R 13:08, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly, I fail to see why that name should be all lowercase, it's purely stylistic. I found several sources that refer to her name in standard capitalisation. Lazz_R 12:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: There have been several comments here saying that "Will.i.am" is not used with an uppercase "W" in any sources. This is not true. The very first source that I checked (The New York Times) used "Will.i.am" very consistently in an article published in late 2016. This included using it in the middle of sentences as well as in the headline and at the start of sentences. (The stylized logo on his website also has what looks like an uppercase "W" at the beginning – the start of the "W" is just as tall as the two "l" characters, which is visibly higher than the rest of the characters.) And The New York Times is not alone. Actually, there are lots of others. I could go on and on. It is actually very common in sources. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:55, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The logo on his website connects the 'w' and the 'm' in style, not in upper-case (both are in lower-case, as are the other mentions on the home page of the website). Someone else can check the others, I don't click on all links. Even if a few links exist with the incorrect upper-casing this is far from his common and most recognized name. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tried one of the Sun links but got swamped out. Very glad that Wikipedia will never go with ads WP:CRYSTAL. Good work though, and shows that lower-casing is not always consistent. Doesn't change the common and most recognized name, and maybe shows that some copy editors are not music fans or versed in all genre. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • One could argue that the reason the "m" has a tail dropping below the baseline is to provide a visual symmetry with the height of the tall "W" at the beginning. The letter "m" doesn't normally have a tail. But I'll admit that the logo argument is pretty weak. I just thought I'd mention it. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revision of sources presented by BarrelProof:
  • RadioTimes: "The two have worked in a record studio with Voice UK coach and Black Eyed Peas member will.i.am"
  • Variety: "Black Eyed Peas’ Will.I.Am" and throughout the magazine says "Will.I.Am" not "Will.i.am" as suggested by BP. Also, a more reliable source within the article says: "Erica Muhl, dean and founding executive director of the USC program: “will.i.am personifies the spirit of cross-disciplinary innovation and creativity, which is the essence of the academy..." A university dean, is which is clearly more: academic than an entertainment magazine, is the definition of reliability.
  • ContactMusic: It uses "Will.i.am" twice, and both are hyperlinked to this page. The rest of the article says stuff like: "The 29 year old claimed that she co-wrote the track with Black Eyed Peas star will.i.am" ... "However, will.i.am’s producers allegedly...", "will.i.am has lost the court battle over 'Scream & Shout'", "‘The Voice UK’ judge will.i.am admitted". In other words, they use capital letters with hyperlinks, not running text.
  • ITV: Uses "Will.I.Am"
  • Yahoo: "Will.i.am" only at the beginning of sentences, but "“I wanted to create something that allows us to do many things,” said will.i.am" and "“I wanted to create something that allows us to do many things,” said will.i.am".
  • AndroidPolice the article is not about him.
  • Mashable (if reliable): "Will.i.am" only at the beginning of sentences, but "will.i.am believes he's building the future's voice-based operating system", "When will.i.am says he's working on an assistant", "Yes, will.i.am believes he has the next big thing", "I met will.i.am during Dreamforce" and a long etc.
  • CNN: "Will.i.am" only at the beginning of sentences, but ""There is no one they can look up to that resembles their lifestyle," will.i.am said at SkyBridge Capital", "But will.i.am has a message to kids:", "Will kids follow will.i.am into STEM? I.am.angel Foundation, will.i.am's charitable organization", and a long etc.
  • This MSN source: Not about Adams.
  • Los Angeles Times: "all-around marketing genius will.i.am has officially exhausted every promotional opportunity", "will.i.am's new single premiering on Mars" (on tab, on article it reads as "Will"), "part of a collaboration between NASA and will.i.am’s i.am.angel foundation"
  • SF Gate: "Will.i.am" only at the beginning of sentences, but "And now will.i.am is countersuing his fellow..."
  • StarTribune: "Will.i.am" only at the beginning of sentences, but "In a statement Thursday, will.i.am's attorney Ken Hertz", "because of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's deadlines, will.i.am "had no choice but..." "he was disappointed and surprised by will.i.am's objection."
  • The rest use "Will.i.am" or use "Will.i.am" at the beginning of sentences only. Nevertheless, this does not prove anything other than my comment "All sources call Adams "will.i.am"" to be inaccurate, and I refactore it to a "most sources call Adams "will.i.am"". Despite the fact you are trying to assert "It is actually very common in sources" and to question "How many is "a few"?", it is indeed not very common in sources and those sources presented still being a very few. You just cited 34 sources and I contested 17. I can literally get 170 reliable sources (at least) consistently calling him "will.i.am". Adams has been working since 1988, and since 1995-1998 he uses the stage name "will.i.am". So, unless you cite several reliable sources (hundreds of them, indeed) that call him "Will.i.am", you can't secure that "It is actually very common in sources". © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 17:29, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't dispute that you can find the lowercase form in some of those. But my point was that you can find the uppercase form in them. All of them. It does exist. And I wasn't even trying very hard. I spent very little time on that. Let's look at the ones that you haven't acknowledged as having the uppercase form in them: Radio Times (has "Will.i.am" in the headline and only one lowercase instance), Android Police (it's not focused on him – it's focused on a product made by a business he owns, but it talks about him, and uses the uppercase "Will.i.am" – in the middle of a sentence), The Verge via MSN (not focused on him – focused on his business's product, but it talks about him, and uses the uppercase – in the middle of a sentence), Los Angeles Times (has "Will.i.am" in the headline and at the start of the third paragraph). The proposed form is clearly not absent in sources as has been asserted to be the case. And it is not just used at the beginning of sentences (e.g., see the New York Times one), although it does seem more popular at the beginning of sentences. Note that Wikipedia styling guidelines for such aspects as capitalization do not say to survey sources and do whatever is most popular in them. I don't disagree about what is most popular in sources – lowercase seems more popular (although I haven't really tried to measure relative popularity). But Wikipedia guidelines say that personal names should be capitalized and that we should just make sure we aren't inventing something new that doesn't already exist. Clearly, "Will.i.am" exists in quite a few reliable sources. There are more if you're interested. I think these are mostly decent quality. Some might be partial duplicates. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:43, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fact is, his stylisation is inconsistently used in sources. I'll go back to what I said in the nomination: MOS:TMCAPS states "when sources are mixed, follow the standard formatting and capitalization used for proper names", which is Will.i.am. Lazz_R 12:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • But WP:COMMONSENSE, which trumps all rules, would keep the name of this page as is. The instances where his name is upper-cased certainly can be found, as shown above. But compared to lower-casing, as shown in an n-gram near the top of this discussion, those instances are relatively uncommon. His most recognizable name in English is will.i.am, and if Wikipedia has it wrong, it makes the encyclopedia incorrect, which we should try to avoid. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) *I think BP has not understood is that this is not about how many sources he can get, I already told him I can get 10x more sources than him, online and offline, because Adams has a 20-year career with that style, demonstrating the WP:COMMONAME is the lowercased title--despite uppercase sources existing. What both are not comprehending is what WP:MOS (call it WP:MOSTM, MOS:TMCAPS, etc.) establishes at the beginning of its page: "This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Anyone who supports removing the lowercase is the one that should give a valid rationale indicating why lowercase is "incorrect" despite hundreds of sources supporting it (WP:RECOGNIZABILITY); WP:TITLECHANGES supporting it; WP:COMMONSENSE supporting it; multiple languages supporting it ([1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21] (WP:RECOGNIZABILITY again), and even if you believe otherwise, this still being a clear occasional exception.
  • Also, can we stop with the links, this took me 2.5 hours, they are proving nothing already said. Also, this is not a truly "mixed style", unless Deadmaus is considered "mixed" as well, which of course you will say no because it will contradict your nomination, despite both cases being exactly the same. As far as I read, supporters have given the argument "it should be moved because guidelines say to do it"[22][23][24] (in other words, as if it was mandatory to do it, and no single guideline supports enforcement). Nothing within WP:P&G establishes that guidelines (not even policies) are to be followed 100%. Guys, apply common sense and reason, your proposal lacks of it beyond what WP:MOSTM solely says. © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 21:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't disagree about what is most popular in sources – lowercase seems more popular. I said that before, but you might have missed it. Wikipedia styling guidelines for such aspects as capitalization do not say to survey sources and do whatever is most popular in them. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The subject's entire name is stylized, with both the lowercase and the inserted punctuation serving as elements of that styling (the same applies to apl.de.ap). The intended effect of this inserted punctuation is to create the effect of changing the pronunciation of the name to sound like "Will, I am", rendering the "i" as the personal pronoun "I", which is usually capitalized. In other words, if this was capitalized to conform with English language conventions, it would be at "Will.I.am". Moving the page to "Will.i.am" would be a half-measure, equivalent to moving "k.d. lang" to "K.d. lang". bd2412 T 11:42, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't object to "Will.I.am", so you can count my previous support for this as well. --Gonnym (talk) 19:04, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • This just shows how wrong this move would be in terms of Wikipedia credibility. Common sense would say that renaming the page "Will.I.am" would not only be laughed at but would adversely reflect on Wikipedia's reputation. Lower-case has been the long-term title of this page since June 16, 2005, even before the coding to make it so was available, there has been nothing said in this RM to change that long-term Wikipedia acceptance of the performer's common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:36, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Long-term means nothing. I can show you plenty of articles with a "long term" name that are not following any Wikipedia MoS nor are they common name nor are they even good names. "long term" might simply mean that noone wanted to jump in and fix it. The current name is the worst possible name as it ignores MoS on capitalisation and ignoring "style"/"trademark" names. Also, please don't create blatantly false arguments, as you've already been shown that the MoS guidelines MOS:SMALLCAPS and MOS:TMCAPS (and even WP:CONSISTENCY with all other articles that have their style ignored, which are much more than the handful of articles which have editors battling out WP:LOCALCONSENSUS to exempt them) are in favor of not using the current name. --Gonnym (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think I've seen "Will.I.am" in sources, but I have encountered some independent sources that use "Will.I.Am" (e.g., Ad Age, Black Enterprise, and Vogue). I was considering that to be roughly equivalent to "Will.i.am", although I suppose it's a little different. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I don't see a strong reason to treat this differently from eBay or k.d. lang etc. The styling is fairly ubiquitous across the sources, and for RECOGNIZABILITY reasons, and per MOS:TM we may as well stick with it.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as per Amakuru. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 21:14, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not terribly different from iPod, eBay or k.d. lang. No problem explained that needs fixing, therefore does not meet WP:TITLECHANGES. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

will.i.am at start of sentences[edit]

@Randy Kryn: @Rreagan007: you appear to be edit warring over this issue in this article, so please stop reverting each other and discuss the matter here. For what it's worth, I think Randy's got it right on this occasion - as long as the article is titled will.i.am (as it does and will unless the move request above goes ahead), we should style it thus in the text too. But either way that's not an excuse to edit war. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • The sentences can be rephrased, and should be rephrased, per ”rephrase to avoid beginning sentences with lowercase”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:48, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not edit warring, as trying to violate the Manual of Style and basic English grammar rules constitutes vandalism, and reverting vandalism isn't edit warring. If the name appears at the beginning of a sentence, it must be capitalized to comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style and basic English grammar rules. If you don't like that, then reword every sentence so that it never starts with his name. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the eye out for vandals, I'll take the next watch. As for this discussion, even though recasting the sentences isn't hard, taking MOS:LCITEMS into consideration we find that "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)", even though will.i.am is not really a personal name as much as a stage name, his trademark (k.d. lang is a personal name lower-cased), then we swing up one section to MOS:LISTCAPS where we find "The initial letter in a sentence[a] is capitalized. This does not apply if it begins with a letter which is always left uncapitalized (as in "eBay"; see § Items that require initial lower case, below), although it is usually preferable to recast the sentence." So, since will.i.am is always lower-cased on Wikipeda since it has "regular and established use in reliable third-party sources", if is up to editors who object or have the immediate interest to "recast the sentence". I've done some recasting and an italics run, and will come back to do more later if someone doesn't get to it before me. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Here's what MOS:LCITEMS actually says in full: "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower-case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang). When such a name is the first word in a sentence, the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and the first letter of the personal name should be capitalized regardless of personal preference." Now, you explain to me what that section in bold means. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Rreagan007: clearly you and Randy disagree on how to interpret the MOS in this area, making this a content dispute, not vandalism. So yes, it is edit warring. If you continue to make bad-faith accusations of that nature, or continue edit warring, you may find yourself blocked. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You tell me what the bolded section above means while you're at it. There is no way to interpret that section other than to mean the first letter of a person's name is always capitalized when it starts a sentence even if they prefer it not to be. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The MOS is just guidance. It is not a defence for crossing policy. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rreagan007, since this section is here I want to explain further. I think of the name will.i.am not as the subject's name but as his trademark/stagename, so more like iTunes and eBay than k.d. lang (which is her full name with her preferred lower-casing). So you and I were simply thinking of two different forms of the same combination of letter and periods and their attendant guideline language and how it effects their presentation. I can see your point, and, as always, appreciate your comments and commitment. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:38, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • what have I done Lazz_R 23:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Randy Kryn: The k.d. lang article never uses "k.d. lang" at the beginning of a sentence, and when it uses the surname at the beginning of a sentence, it uses "Lang", not "lang". I think I'm with Rreagan007 on this one. MOS:LCITEMS says the the rule for initial letters in sentences and list items should take precedence, and I see no reason this article should be an exception to that. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello BarrelProof, and I agree that at the start of a sentence the uppercase "W" would be proper (Wikipedians tend to learn a thing or few in five years). What about captions? I like the look of the captions on this page, with the proper lowercase name leading them off, but do you think they should be reworded to reflect sentence case (although most captions tend not to be sentences). Randy Kryn (talk) 23:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your quick and gracious reply. I just edited the article. I found that a few places already had a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, and one place had a capital letter in the middle of a sentence (which I changed to improve consistency). Three places had lowercase at the beginning of sentences. I uppercased two of those and rephrased the third one to move the name to later in the sentence. I left the captions alone. Personally, I would probably uppercase those (e.g. since we capitalize list items as well as sentences, as noted at MOS:LCITEMS), but I haven't given it a lot of thought. Just as an observation, I notice that there is a lot of variation in the capitalization in the titles of cited sources. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You've welcome. Nice work on finding the styling edits. Yes, the caption casing is an interesting question, although the present casing here seems to fit the flow of the page. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion of will.i.am[edit]

This page should not be speedily deleted because... will.i.am is the long standing title, it is the most concise and it is the common name. --Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the page is certainly NOT going to be deleted! And thank god for that. Might I suggest indefinite move protection? MadGuy7023 (talk) 22:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and just so months or years from now this does not perhaps look so odd without checking the history, today there was a series of confusing or disruptive moves et. al. - one was a speedy deletion tag, and the system auto-plopped this contested message here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME clearly applies here. "We must have the legal name" is a flawed argument if a person is commonly known by a stage name such as Bono.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]


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