Talk:Wales Green Party

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Leaders[edit]

Have updated to reflect recent changes in leadership

ThirteenSenses (talk) 11:22, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

This article states that the Wales Green Party is the "only local party with autonomous status within the GPEW". What is the GPEW? I can find no mention in the artcle to the GPEW and no link on Wikipedia. Can someone please put tidy this up??? Rhyddfrydol 21:22 8th September 2005 (UTC)

The clue is in the preceeding sentence: the Green Party of England and Wales Twrist 17:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can it be a party within a party? Furthermore how can it be only semi-autonomous within the Green Party England and Wales. It sounds like a regional branch of the Green Party E&W and NOT an actual party like the Scottish Greens. I can find absolutely nothing Green Party Wales orientated in the electoral commission Drowz0r (talk) 10:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion[edit]

This page should not be speedily deleted because... The Welsh Greens have a semi-autonomous status and have their own leadership. Given that other Welsh parties have their own pages (e.g. Welsh Conservative Party, Welsh Labour Party), and that the Wales has its own devolved elections, the Welsh Greens article should remain. Neither the Welsh Conservatives or Welsh Labour are separate parties registered with the Electoral Commission, they are - like the Welsh Greens - semi-autonomous parts of their respective parties who have their own leaders and staff, while still being a part of the UK party. The article could certainly be improved, but it shouldn't be deleted. --Frinton100 (talk) 11:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence of Welsh Greens having semi-autonomous status or what semi-autonomous status actually extends to (or basically what that means - I see it repeated but it's meaningless without definition). No citations to this effect either. No media coverage. The Green Party of Wales is NOT a Welsh Party. There is only the Green Party of England & Wales. The Welsh Labour or Welsh Conservatives are a separately registered party with the electoral commission. They campaign under this. They show on the voting form as this. The "Green Party Wales" does not do any of this. Absolutely no citations to this effect from any editor or anyone showing Greens should have a separate page. -- Drowz0r (talk) 01:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Just because a party or a collection of parties have a regional split on a different page, it does not mean every party should get the same. Labour and Cons are huge by comparison to the Greens. UKIP are more the Greens size - and do not have their own page for their Wales branch. -- Drowz0r (talk) 02:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Drowz0r: Welsh Labour and Tories are not separate parties registered with the EC. They are part of their respective UK parties. Welsh Labour Party and Welsh Conservative Party are registered descriptions of those parties, which you can see by looking at the party's record on the EC site. Labour for example have registered the descriptions "Welsh Labour", "Welsh Labour Candidate" and "Welsh Labour Party Candidate". All of these can be used on the ballot paper by Welsh Labour candidates, but they can only be authorised for use by the UK Labour Party nominating officer based in the London head office. If you search for "Welsh Labour" in the EC registration search the results you get are the UK Labour Party and the UK Co-operative Party (Labour's sister party). There is no separate registration for Welsh Labour. See http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP53 for details.
Similarly, the Green Party have registered "Wales Green Party" as a description. So the GPEW could use this as a description on the ballot if they choose to. http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP63
The Welsh Greens are different to the other English regions of the GPEW in that they have their own leader. I completely accept, as I said above, that the article can be improved and more detail is required as to the structure and organisation of the Welsh Greens, and it needs someone with some more knowledge of the GPEW to do this. I certainly don't believe it deserves deleting. Frinton100 (talk) 13:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Frinton100: My mistake, they are not separately registered - however Greens in Wales do not have any MPs, AMs or MEPs, so comparing them to Labour/Cons is a bit fruitless. They are closer to UKIP in terms of size, which do not have a regional welsh page despite having more Welsh representation than the Greens. This is not enough to give a party a separate page. Nothing notable has happened for the Welsh Greens.
The article should be deleted until:
1) the Welsh Greens get some kind of representation in Wales
or
2) Something notable happens and they are in the media
I can find nothing in the media about the "Welsh Green Party" except the Welsh Spokesperson, which essentially all parties have. Ironically these media outlets are generally just reporting she used to drive a 2.0 jag and did a psychic reading with chicken bones... which has not featured in this article.
There are groupings for Left wing Greens, Young Greens, Feminist Greens, Cornish Greens... none of those have a page.
This page does not meet the requirements set by wikipedia and as such should be deleted. Should someone wish to re-make the page with appropriate citations, then long live that new page but currently there isn't a single citation backing up any of the claims that isn't from the GPW's own site. In four years, not a single citation - so I'm not sure why allowing more time will benefit this page. Drowz0r (talk) 22:39, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Drowz0r: The Welsh leader is more than just a spokesperson, she is elected by the membership. I found plenty of articles about the current leader and deputy, the latter not particularly helpful to the Green Party, but none of which (as far as I can see, and I admit I did only skim some parts) mention jaguars or psychics. The article needs work, not deletion as I said before. Frinton100 (talk) 23:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Frinton100: Yes I am aware Pippa was elected, her last election was contested with Andy Chyba back when the role was defined as Spokesperson. She was elected as Spokesperson. I wasn't aware it was recently redefined as Welsh Leader - then again this article doesn't contain any citations so it is hard to tell. I suspect through co-opting of some sort the role has now been deemed Welsh Leader and does not need re-election? These kind of things need to be in the article and need citations.
The chicken bones thing was on an episode of "Come Dine With Me". The Jag has been in a lot of media... she swapped to a Nissan Leaf because people wouldn't shut up about it. Personally I find the jag thing a bit stupid, as if to suggest her single car could save the planet...
Some sources on jag and psychic reading:
Sun Nation
UK Media Watch
Wales Eye
Here is the channel 4 episode itself showing Pippa do the reading.
It has had four years to produce citations and it doesn't meet the wikipedia criteria for page creation. It basically fails on all fronts... Drowz0r (talk) 23:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The new deletion tag is only to be removed if the article is improved, sourced, renamed or merged... or something. I am adding it to the discussion list now, I suggest if you think the article should stay, you join the debate. Drowz0r (talk) 23:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RfC - delete or improve?[edit]

Should the article be deleted or improved? If the latter, how do we go about it? Frinton100 (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion review created[edit]

I have now requested a deletion review here; Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 November 2 Jimmy3d0 (talk) 20:12, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion was not endorsed. The matter is still pending a decision by a senior editor who was not involved in the discussion. Until then, this page remains. Btljs (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Btljs:Deletion endorsement is shown? Was this an error? Given the page is only ever updated when threatened with deletion and the Senedd elections were a month ago but no-one is interested enough to add the results to this page I have to question why on earth the page was un-merged. Drowz0r (talk) 00:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I don't understand this at all. If there was endorsement why is this still here, and why has there not been any follow-up? Farleysmaster (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh independence in the infobox[edit]

Should we include Welsh independence in the infobox? Helper201 (talk) 08:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I am strongly in favour of removing Welsh independence from the infobox. The reason for this is that it is not an active ideology of the party. The party voted in favour of a very specifically worded motion that it would campaign in support of Welsh independence if a referendum were to be held on the matter. There is no referendum planned or scheduled to be held on Welsh independence currently. If the party simply agreed to support or campaign for Welsh independence it would say as such, but it specifically chose to agree to a motion that specifically stated that this would be in the event a referendum was held on the matter. The party does not appear to have stated that it will campaign or support Welsh independence otherwise. Therefore, this is subsequent to a condition which clearly has not been met. Its views on Welsh independence can be found in the policies section and I think its fine to retain that explanation there regarding its stance on Welsh independence; I just don't think it should be included as an ideology in the infobox. Sources where its position on independence is explained:
Helper201 (talk) 08:24, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree. I wasn't aware of any such agenda. Deb (talk) 13:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • We discussed this before at Talk:Green_Party_of_England_and_Wales#Welsh_independence and "Welsh independence" was taken out of the infobox for Green_Party_of_England_and_Wales. It is clearly a more pertinent question here. As per that previous discussion, I feel Helper201 may be erring with WP:SYNTH. We have secondary sourcing that has done the interpretation of the party's position for us, and that secondary sourcing doesn't split as many hairs! It basically just says that the Greens support Welsh independence. This is clearly a key policy issue and secondary sources say the Wales Green Party supports Welsh independence, so I say leave it in the infobox. Having said that, the infobox is a summary and it is the role of the article text to expand on any subtleties in the Greens' position here. It is in the Policies subsection that we can expand on the matter and acknowledge Helper201's point better. Bondegezou (talk) 15:14, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The violation of WP:SYNTH is taking the party's specifically worded conditional stance on Welsh independence and using that to interpret that it is a current and active ideology of the party warranting it a place in the infobox, i.e. it’s what currently stands that breaks synth. I'm specifically following the guidelines set out to avoid synthesis of published material by reading the motion in full, exactly how it is worded, which is to support and campaign for Welsh independence on the condition that a referendum on the matter is held. As you said, the infobox is a summary, so the number of ideologies should arguably be cut down in the infobox anyway, so with the caveats and issues regarding this one it seems the best one to remove for the reasons outlined. Helper201 (talk) 15:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Bondegezou, but Helper201 is correct about the issue of WP:SYNTH. Deb (talk) 16:56, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, Helper201, but you are taking primary source material (the party's specifically worded conditional stance [...] the motion in full) and interpreting what that means. The remedy against WP:SYNTH is to look at what secondary sources say. We discussed secondary source reporting at Talk:Green_Party_of_England_and_Wales#Welsh_independence and you give some examples above ("Wales Green Party vote to back Welsh independence at conference", "England and Wales Green Party backs Welsh independence referendum"). Secondary sources say the Welsh Green Party supports Welsh independence. Bondegezou (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how I'm interpreting the motion that was passed. Secondary sources are obviously going to use their own words and not necessarily repeat verbatim. "Wales Green Party vote to back Welsh independence at conference" - this is simply only the title of a source of which it clarifies in the source itself the conditions for this. They aren't going to say "Wales Green Party vote to back Welsh independence at conference if a referendum is held on the matter of Welsh independence", that's too wordy. In the article it expands and sets out the criteria, to quote:
"The Green Party in Wales has voted in favour of backing Welsh independence at a future referendum.
At the Wales Green Party conference today, members voted in favour of the amendment: “In the event of a referendum on Welsh independence, the Wales Green Party commits to campaigning in favour of seceding from the United Kingdom.”"

Also in regards to "England and Wales Green Party backs Welsh independence referendum", backing a referendum, as is specifically stated here, does not equal support for Welsh independence. So even if you are reading the secondary sources exactly as worded their articles don't specifically say the party simply supports Welsh independence but specifically state the party supports a referendum on the matter, which are not the same, and to say they are is synth. Helper201 (talk) 18:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If anything (in my opinion) the Wales Green Party's stance on Welsh Independence should be covered briefly in the "Policies" section of the article. There's no reason for it to appear in the Infobox, unless we're going to include the party's stance there on everything else too. I suspect someone is trying to give prominence to this information because of the upcoming local elections, where the Green Party is forming an alliance with Plaid Cymru. Sionk (talk) 22:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sionk, could you withdraw that last bit? “Welsh independence” being in the infobox goes back at least 11 months. The change being proposed now is to de-emphasise it, not to give it more prominence. Bondegezou (talk) 07:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The epistemological rules of Wikipedia are very clear. We follow what reliable, WP:SECONDARY sources say. So, what do they say?

  • [2]: "The Welsh Green Party say it "supports the aspiration for an independent and fully democratic Wales, bringing decision making to those people most affected by those decisions"."
  • [3]: "The leader of Wales’ Green Party has said that he has joined YesCymru, the cross-party group campaigning for Welsh independence. He said that he considered independence a “vital step” towards building a “greener and fairer Wales”. It comes after the Green Party of England and Wales announced support for a Welsh independence referendum at the beginning of last month."
  • [4]: "Polisi'r blaid yw ymgyrchu o blaid annibyniaeth Cymru pe bai refferendwm." ("It is the party's policy to campaign for Welsh independence in the event of a referendum.")
  • [5]: "Mae Plaid Werdd Cymru wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi annibyniaeth i Gymru fel “dyhead tymor hir” pe bai refferendwm yn cael ei gynnal yn y dyfodol." ("The Wales Green Party is committed to supporting independence for Wales as a "long-term aspiration" in the event of a referendum in the future.")
  • [6]: "Mae gan Gymru well siawns o “fynnu dyfodol gwyrddach a thecach” iddi hi ei hun y tu allan i’r Deyrnas Unedig, yn ôl arweinydd y Blaidd Werdd yng Nghymru." ("Wales has a better chance of "aspiring to a greener and fairer future" outside the United Kingdom, according to the leader of the Green Party in Wales.")
  • [7]: "The Welsh Green party should take another vote on independence from the English Green Party now that they support independence for Wales, a member has said. [...] The Welsh Green Party voted against seceding from the England and Wales party in 2018. However, in October 2020 the party then decided to back Welsh independence."
  • [8]: "The Green Party of England and Wales has announced support for a Welsh independence referendum. It announced on its backing for it on Twitter in response to a Telegraph article on the independence movement in Wales, and the growth in the YesCymru movement. It said: “We believe communities and countries should have the power to determine their own future. “That’s why we’ll campaign for independence in a referendum on Wales’ place in the UK.” It comes after the Wales Green Party, a semi-autonomous political party within the Green Party of England and Wales voted in favour of backing Welsh independence at a future referendum at their autumn conference."

It is clear that the Wales Green Party supports independence. The subtleties of their position can be explained in the Policies subsection, but in infobox terms, they're clearly on the pro-independence side of things. Is this position significant enough to warrant inclusion in the infobox? It is widely reported and discussed when talking about the Wales Green Party, so yes. Bondegezou (talk) 09:13, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Party history[edit]

Hi, Does anyone know who the first Green councillors were in Wales? Was it Marcus Hughes and Brian Stringer in 1991, or earlier? I have contacted RCT Library Service and the info they hold suggests the three elected in 1974 were independents, and that the cited Plymouth University source is incorrect. 188.39.53.201 (talk) 17:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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