Talk:Vushtrri

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Requested move 15 January 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: those supporting the move to Vushtrri have the stronger arguments.

  • "Google results aren't from third-party sources" is a confusing statement, and Maleschreiber is correct in their counter of that argument, which essentially was "only Albanians spell it like this".
  • The analyses of the Google (Books and Scholar) results by the nominator and by Maleschreiber are solid, and while the objection by Vanjagenije made sense, it was countered by Super Dro, with no rebuttal.
  • The Google results indicate a preponderance for the proposed article title, which reflects the situation on the ground, so to speak, and so per COMMONNAME as well as per Wikipedia:Official names there is good ground to move. Drmies (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vučitrn → Vushtrri – I propose that this article be renamed to 'Vushtrri' due to the fact that, not only is 'Vushtrri' the preferred and official name used by the government and the vast majority of people in Kosovo, but it is also the common name. Here are some Google Scholar results that prove this:

Additionally, recent trends are also important in choosing the name of an article. Therefore, looking for searches since 2018 yields the following results:

As can be observed, in recent trends, the form 'Vushtrri' has more than doubled 'Vučitrn'. It should also be noted that Vushtrri is more English-friendly, as the 'č' letter does not exist in the English alphabet. A variety of sources can also be cited that display a trend of governments and international organisations labelling it as 'Vushtrri', but in this case, the search results should be enough. Botushali (talk) 07:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Support per nomination and WP:COMMONNAME. The inhabitants of Vushtrri are more than 95% Albanian I fail to see a reason to use the Serbian name instead. The Albanian name also appears to be the most friendly and widely used name in English as per analysis above. Iaof2017 (talk) 12:35, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As in previous discussion, the filer failed to include "Vucitrn" (as a variation of "Vučitrn") in the search. If included, the results are different: 881 hit for "Vushtrri" and 958 hits for "Vučitrn", "Vuçitrn" and "Vucitrn" together [1][2][3]. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But if we combine "Vushtrri" and "Vushtri" [4], we get over a thousand results [5] (compare to 938 when combining the three variants of the Serbian name [6]), so the Albanian name is still more common. By the way, if you look at the first page of results, the articles using the Albanian names are usually more recent and those using the Serbian one. Super Ψ Dro 17:38, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the Albanian name is more common. Super Ψ Dro 17:38, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support per WP:NAMECHANGES, the "official" language of the region is Albanian.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. I agreed with Vanjagenije. Ничим неизазван (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per Vanja's argument. Elserbio00 (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would like to state that two users have voted “oppose” using an argument that has already been deconstructed above. I urge all future voters to look at this move request from a reasonable, unbiased and logical standpoint - the combination of three separate versions of the Serbian name is still outnumbered by two separate versions of the Albanian name. It is time for Wikipedia to go along with the modern trend and call this article 'Vushtrri'. As previously mentioned, since 2018, the results on Google Scholar show that 'Vushtrri' comes up with double the results in comparison to 'Vuçitrn'. 'Vushtrri' is the common name and this should be reflected on the article. Botushali (talk) 12:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Vanjagenije is right. We should include all variants. "Vushtrri" OR "Vushtri" OR "Vushtria" OR "Vushtrria" (Vushtria/Vushtrria are the definited forms of the Albanian toponym): 1150 results (2000-2022) vs. "Vučitrn" OR "Vucitrn" OR "Vuçitrn" 746 results (2000-2022). Academic use favors a rename to Vushtrri. But we should also check use outside academic sources to determine which toponym people use the most in everyday life. Google ngrams: [7] It's obvious that Vushtrri has overtaken Vučitrn since the early 1990s, which is expected as over 98% of the population are Albanians. The article should be renamed to reflect common academic and everyday use.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The Albanian form is more common, plus it is the official name used in the language of the majority of the population there. For anyone confused by Vanjagenije's argument above, please also read the clarification by Super. Çerçok (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Folks, check the non-English names in the USA toponyms. Please, stop historical revisionism! Ничим неизазван (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • That’s not a sufficient counter argument at all. This is not “historical revisionism”, this is updating Wikipedia articles to reflect current trends and realities. Botushali (talk) 02:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Looking at the Google Scholar diffs, the nationality of the scholar dictates the naming convention with those who are Serbian using Vučitrn and those who are Albanian using Vushtrri. The small number of non-Balkan scholars use both names in their work Vučitrn/Vushtrri. The diffs only demonstrate the common name is common amongst ethnic Albanian scholars and not worldwide. A search of grey literature could provide a solution to this. ElderZamzam (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Vushtrri is by far the most popular google trends.[8] even in Serbia Vushtrri is the more common. Durraz0 (talk) 15:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting, I haven't checked google trends. It looks like almost nobody outside of Serbia is searching for 'Vučitrn'. Academic and everyday search frequencies show an overwhelming support for Vushtrri.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per nominator, the Albanian name is used more nowadays. --Vacant0 (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and arguments raised above by Maleschreiber, and Durraz0, among others. Uniacademic (talk) 21:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nominator. As shown above, Vushtrri is more common. – Βατο (talk) 00:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Like the admins and other editors pointed out (which the OP has neglected to present accurately): "Vushtrri" has 881 hits while "Vučitrn" has 958. Vushtrri is more used by ethnic Albanian scholars than being an actual worldwide trend, and therefore, I am not exactly convinced on why to support the RM. The editors should follow Wikipedia's naming guidelines, and OP Botushali really ought to slow down with the multiple RMs they have initiated the last couple of days (noticed the one here as well, by the same OP, on the same day). While there is no Wikipedia rule limiting editors on how many RMs they may initiate at once, trying to change articles into Albanian names, while failing to accurately present all the evidence (missing statistics favoring the current name), concerns me as it may suggest that there is an attempt to make a narrative where the proposed name is more commonly used, while it isn't. I can't exactly say that this is really helpful for the readers, nor for the WP:BALKANS topic area which politically remains sensitive. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:32, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SilentResident:
  • Google scholar:1150 results (2000-2022) vs. "Vučitrn" OR "Vucitrn" OR "Vuçitrn" 746 (The link provided by Vanjagenije only included Vushtrri vs. all variants of Vučitrn)
  • Google books ngrams: [9]
  • Google trends (worldwide): [10] All show that Vushtrri is used overwhelmingly more than Vučitrn. --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. The vast majority of the sources in your results are Albanian. It doesn't change the fact that international usage of the terms (by third party sources), are more in favor of the current name over the proposed one. This is the International English Wikipedia, not the Albanian Wikipedia and I strongly believe that we shouldn't be changing names for articles of cities and towns without strong evidence for usage of these terms in English sources. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 01:01, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They're worldwide results. Most searches for any toponym will be in the language which is used by most people in a region. Naming guidelines in that cases favor the most used local name. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Worldwide results" is a red herring here; the results using the RM's proposed name aren't from third party sources, are -in their vast majority- Albanian websites and authors. You may argue indefinitely about bits and things, but I am not convinced by such arguments. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:07, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Google search provides a global index. If you want to call it "Albanian sites" that's on you, but it's not an argument against the rename but for it. Per NCGN, if a local name is the one used more commonly then the article gets renamed to that title.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that this isn't the first time we meet in a RM (you came to the RM at Imia), I think you know me well enough so that you can tell whether my similar positions in both RMs isn't a mere coincidence, but my actual approach: where there has been history and are politically sensitive topics, such as Turkey-Greece or Albania-Serbia, then, in my opinion, is better for Wikipedia to reflect on international community and third party sources rather than on what local sources and views do say. You may find it impractical or absurd, but considering how sensitive these topic areas are politically, my position is not just in line with Wikipedia's naming guidelines, but also as neutral as it can get. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:02, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to be objective and neutral, start from objective reality: most data show Vushtrri as the top result and it is the language the locals. Right now you're !opposing the name used by the locals and most people who are searching for this town online in favor of a name used in just one country. The last Kosovo vote you took part in is [[11]] and you !opposed the move - but it was moved. Maybe this is the time for some reflection. Good day.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:15, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The reality is that not every RM can end however you want it. My own RM, where you oppose!voted, was closed with a large majority in favor of my arguments, and when the RM closure was reviewed, the closure was endorsed unanimously, with many votes which is unprecedented for my standards. But that doesn't matter I am afraid: In some RMs the consensus may be opposite of what we vote, and that's absolutely natural and we can only accept it and move on. Now, I kindly ask that you respect my votes, no matter however I cast them, even if they are based on what I believe to be better for the Wikipedia project as whole, instead of reflecting on what others may have voted in past RMs. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:43, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Google Scholar has a function to search English-only sources. Vučitrn (notice the "lr=lang_en" at the url) gets 542 results ("Vučitrn" OR "Vuçitrn" OR "Vucitrn" get 548) while Vushtrri gets 595 ("Vushtrri" OR "Vushtri" get 659). Super Ψ Dro 22:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NCGN. Google scholar, google books, general google results all strongly show that Vushtrri is more common than Vucitrn. The results searched should be after 1999 (Kosovo War) per WP:WIAN: For modern sources, it is important to identify any recent watershed moments in the location's history (such as the fall of the Soviet Union for Eastern Europe, or other revolutions, invasions and nationality changes), and limit sources to those published after that watershed. As is normal for a city of Kosovo where 95%+ are Albanians, the more commonly searched named online is the Albanian one. NCGN proposes in such circumstances that When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. That name in all cases is Vushtrri.--Bes-ARTTalk 23:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The most ridiculous claim that I read here is that "even in Serbia Vushtrri is the more common". It would be nice if people in this discussion would stick to facts. This is obviously part of the same initiative to promote Albanian names of cities (see discussion for name change from Lipljan to Lipjan). Having that in mind, I will repeat what I stated there, as situation here is very similar: "This is Wikipedia in English language. It makes no sense that names of cities in English language should change every time when political situation on Balkans changes (which happens very often, as we all know). Of course that Albanian version of the name is going to be more present on recent Google results, having in mind that it is officially in use currently (and as a result - there are many official documents mentioning it). But I don't see that as a valid reason for name change in English language. If Kosovo was not renamed to Kosova (Albanian version of the name) on Wikipedia, I don't see justification for this change either." Tresnjevo (talk) 01:47, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Counting 4 or 5 versions of Albanian pronunciation together does not make it "common", good God. Vucitrn has been in use since the Middle ages and it is more common in works by international scholars. 94.189.219.186 (talk) 13:10, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • This vote completely ignores the evidence presented here - ‘Vushtrri’ on its own is actually more common than ‘Vučitrn’ on its own, as has been shown above. ‘Vučitrn’ can only beat ‘Vushtrri’ when other versions of ‘Vučitrn’ are counted, so why can we not do the same about ‘Vushtrri’ and the different versions? You cannot be selective about the evidence. Botushali (talk) 13:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The results which we can't decipher entirely about the language they're in although the majority are in English/German/French show way more hits for Vushtrri. If there is an English WP:COMMONNAME it is Vushtrri. If there is no English WP:COMMONNAME then the most frequent local name (Vushtrri) gets to be the title of the article. Ahmet Q. (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The Google scholar results show nothing, only that Albanian authors use "Vushtrri" and Serbian authors use "Vucitrn". Google scholar results have an exclusively narrow focus. On the other hand, Google Books results from the 21st century show 3500 hits for "Vucitrn" [12] and only about 500 for "Vushtrri" or "Vushtrria" [13]. Google Earth and Google Maps also uses "Vucitrn". Interestingly, while Google Earth and Google Maps use the Albanian name for most places in Kosovo, they do not do so for Vucitrn and Lipljan. It's a bid odd, but that's what it is. Khirurg (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Google books results are fewer than google scholar which includes all indexed gb results. There aren't 3500 results for Vucitrn but 26-28 pages x 10 results/page = 260-280 results. Google Books results in list format are just the Google Books ngrams results in non-graphic format:[14] And if you search for google trends (worldwide): [15] You're not bringing up something which isn't already in the discussion. You proposed such use of gbooks results at the discussion about Peja as an !oppose argument. But it's verifiably not correct.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:NCGN: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used. None of the names is really common in English, as GB/GS show. None of the names in used by a considerable margin compared to the other. This way the official and the name used by the local population of the city should be used as per the cited policy above. Albanian is the first official language of the municipality and the name used by the local population. Serbian is the second official language but not used in all of the municipality's documents and not used by over 98% of the local people (who are ethnic Albanians).Alltan (talk) 16:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There is no "common English name" for this municipality and town. The two names are used in GoogleBooks and GoogleScholar results without a large margin compared to each other. Such cases are solved by WP:NCGN where it says that "If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name". The local population is almost 100% Albanian. Apart from this, the first official name used by the local authorities is the Albanian one. The only name used in every single document of the local authorities. Generally speaking, the articles of Kosovo municipalities with an Albanian majority should use the Albanian name, and the others the Serbian one. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Majority of Albanians using the Albanian language version for Vucitrn, obviously, as presented at the Google Scholar diffs does not mean that is the case not worldwide nor is it a very strong argument. MareBG (talk) 00:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. Jingiby (talk) 06:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per nomination by Botushali and Maleschreiber's informative comments. @Maleschreiber was spot on back in the previous RM and is again now.Resnjari (talk) 12:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per previous informative comments which do prove that there is no need for this change. Kosovo, not KosovA, or just take a look at numerous Greek cities or islands which are not named per the standard in Greek language, which is just proving my point, not to mention that Google search results are not completely relevant, only a part of the human population is regullary using Google. Вукан Ц (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It is a traditional and established name in English, other names can certainly be regulated by redirects. --Djordjes (talk) 16:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The proposed name is widely used in Google Books and Google Scholars results, and is the local and first official name in line with WP:NCGN. If editors can't agree on a common English name, then the local and first official name are used for the article per the relevant policy. Lijaeujit (talk) 18:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Lijaeujit: your vote here is your very first edit, and only edit, as a registered user. Could you please explain why this is the case and how you know Wikipedia guidelines (naming conventions) as a first time user? I am very interested to know. ElderZamzam (talk) 21:34, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Google search results from intro. post are too narrow and selective. We could remove the Slavic ch from the title and that could probably make it more neutral. 178.237.216.149 (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vushtrri[edit]

Vushtrria urban have 27,272 population, not 26... 2003:C5:7721:30E0:B1D1:3324:4444:FCFE (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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