Talk:Vladimir Petrov (diplomat)

Title needs changing

Back on 19 January 2006, User:Ezhiki moved the article from Vladimir Petrov (diplomat) to Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov, with the reason "use full name for dab instead of occupation" - [1].

He then moved it to Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov (diplomat), because "there is another person with this name" – [2].

If that was true then, it doesn't seem to be now. We currently have the following Vladimir Petrov articles:

• Vladimir Nikolayevich Petrov (1915–1999), writer, teacher, and former prisoner of the Soviet Gulag
• Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov (diplomat) (1907–1991), Soviet diplomat who defected to Australia
• Vladimir Petrov (footballer) (b. 1940), Soviet international footballer
• Vladimir Petrov (rower) (b. 1932), Soviet coxswain at the 1956 Summer Olympics
• Vladimir Vladimirovich Petrov (b. 1947), Soviet ice hockey player
• Vladimirs Petrovs (1908–1943), also known as Vladimir Petrov, Latvian chess player

as well as red links for 2 others:

• Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov (TRIZ Master), board member of International TRIZ Association
• Vladimir Petrov (director), Bulgarian film director.

I am generally quite opposed to the use of middle names or patronymics as a disambiguator. Readers would not generally know that the politician John Smith has the middle name Frederick, and the xylophone player John Smith has the middle name Archibald, so there's virtually no point in using this information to differentiate them. What readers want to know is whether they’re getting the politician or the xylophone player, so that's the thing we should use to disambiguate. It's only where there are two politicians named John Smith, and both from the same country, that middle names/patronymics might come into play. With the Vladimir Petrovs, only one of them was a diplomat, so that's all we need to use. All of the above names, including the red links, can be dabbed by occupation alone, so there's simply no need to use Mikhaylovich.

I propose this article be returned to its original name Vladimir Petrov (diplomat). It will need admin intervention. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

In view of lack of any objections, I've listed this at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial requests. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for having noticed this thread after having moved an article to "Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov (diplomat)" in the course of my article assessment rounds, but I would like to point out that I did move it right away because I, too, saw nothing controversial about it. I'm kind of surprised to stumble upon this very recent thread, and honestly don't remember having moved this before...

Anyway, generally we do not use patronymics in article titles, except when there is ambiguity, in which case it is preferred to disambiguate by patronymic (and by "is preferred" I mean "it is done in most of the cases already", not "because I like it better that way"). Having seen you (Jack) around the Reference Desk giving out useful Russian language-related advise, I trust you know that a patronymic is not the same as the middle name and that patronymics enjoy much more extensive usage than typical Western middle names do? That was precisely the reasoning why we use patronymics where we wouldn't normally use a middle name (and this was debated on WT:RUSSIA more than once, with the general consensus being that patronymics in titles are perfectly OK). Disambiguation by occupation is still possible, but only if the person's patronymic is not known. In rare cases, such as this one, however, there are people who share not only the first/last names, but a patronymic as well. Well, then we just add another disambiguator (occupation), and it all works out just fine. This approach fits nicely and consistently into the current naming routines, and I don't see any objections which could not be addressed by properly utilizing the redirect network in combination with a well-designed disambig/surname page. Hopefully this explains the reasoning behind my move. Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:55, July 7, 2009 (UTC)

@Ezhiki: I bet you don't remember this anymore, but is (diplomat) still necessary. Could we not now assume this is the primary Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov.  —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 06:04, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, the article about the TRIZ master has been deleted, so either "Vladimir Mikhaylovich Petrov" or "Vladimir Petrov (diplomat)" would be an acceptable title now. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); April 3, 2017; 13:55 (UTC)

Why is he called a diplomat? He was an intelligence officer.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:48, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

He decided to join the Soviet spy organization, the OGPU, in May 1933. He was subsequently admitted to the Special Cipher Section, which was attached to the Foreign Department of the OGPU. It was his status in this section which allowed him to learn many Soviet secrets by reading the top secret ciphers.

Petrov lived through the purges of Stalin under Yagoda, Yezhov, and Beria. Even though a great number of his friends, colleagues, and superiors were arrested and executed, Petrov escaped unscathed. What does it mean that he survived, they could well participate in them, he himself was a member of the secret police, such as Alexander Mikhailovich Orlov during the civil war in Spain, participated in terror against local anti-Stalinist forces and then fled to the west 37.54.230.242 (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)