Talk:Vistulan dialect

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Nehrungisch[edit]

compare and contrast Elinruby (talk) 05:22, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which contradictions are there? Sarcelles (talk) 19:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Plautdietsch intro[edit]

Plautdietsch was spoken in northern Poland.^[1] It is usually divided into the three local dialect areas of Nehrung (on the Baltic Sea), Werder (islands in the Vistula delta) and Niederung (south of the Werder).^[1] Further south, in Kulmerland in Poland near Grudziądz (Graudenz) and Chełmno (Culm), there were also Plautdietsch-speaking Mennonites.^[1] The Mennonites adopted the respective local Low German dialect of the time.^[1] These dialects are classified according to the area and not according to Mennonites and others.^[1]

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Christopher Douglas Cox (2015). "Quantitative perspectives on variation in Mennonite Plautdietsch" (PDF). Department of Linguistics, University of Alberta. Retrieved 2023-04-02. [a doctor's thesis]

Note:

The citation was incomplete (e.g. author was missing), and still is as no pages are provided.

Source:

(p. 27): "Mennonites entering the Vistula delta at this time arrived in a linguistic landscape that was no less diverse than their own internal linguistic and ethnic-denominational composition. Both Ziesemer (1924: 125) and Epp (1993: 67–68) report nine distinct Low German dialects in the region, as well as several neighbouring High and Middle German varieties."
(p. 27f.): "[...] three zones in the area of northern Poland [...] in which most Mennonites came to settle: (a) a narrow spit of land (Standard German: Nehrung) north of the Elbląg branch of the Vistula, extending from the city of Gdańsk (formerly Danzig) to the northern edge of the Vistula Lagoon; (b) several large, lowland river islands (Werder) to the south of the Elbląg Vistula; and (c) an extensive, low-lying valley region (Niederung) further south"
(p. 28): "While Mennonites in Poland thus maintained either Dutch or High German as their language of written communication and worship, they nevertheless came to adopt local varieties of Low German as their language of daily life."

That is:

Source mentions 3 Mennonite settlements and 9 Low German dialects (cp. also Low Prussian dialect#Dialects), but apparently not 3 Plautdietsch varieties [or where?].
Also: Menntioning Mennonite settlements wherever they are, doesn't indicate their language as hinted by:
- p. 28 of the above: "maintained either Dutch or High German as their language of written communication and worship"
- article Plautdietsch: "Today, many younger Russian Mennonites in Canada and the United States speak only English. For example, Homer Groening—the father of Matt Groening (creator of The Simpsons)—spoke Plautdietsch as a child in a Mennonite community in Saskatchewan in the 1920s, but Matt never learned the language."

--12:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Ziesemer reports nine distinct Low German dialects, being the varieties of Low Prussian. The study is at hand for me. Mennonite settlements wherever they are, doesn't indicate their language. However, this gives a hint in want of sources stating this clearly.Sarcelles (talk) 21:39, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"3 Plautdietsch dialects" vs. "3 Mennonite settlements" are two different statements; only the latter is sourced and not the first. And the proper info is already present, see History > Diaspora: "Mennonites settled in West Prussia mostly in the three local areas of Nehrung (on the Baltic Sea), Werder (islands in the Vistula delta) and Niederung (south of the Werder), where they adopted the respective local Low German dialect as their everyday language." --15:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.149.187.154 (talk)

[ualberta-1] Christopher Douglas Cox (2015). "Quantitative perspectives on variation in Mennonite Plautdietsch" (PDF). Department of Linguistics, University of Alberta. Retrieved 2023-04-02. [a doctor's thesis]

[1]