Talk:Treveri

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Translations[edit]

By the bye, all direct quotations from French works thus far have been my own translations. Q·L·1968 ☿ 00:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review suggestions[edit]

Thanks very much to both Ruhrfisch and A Nobody for their comments on the peer review for this article. Both users quite properly criticized my unorthodox citation method; having learned how to link footnotes to a separate references section, I've been trying to rectify the reference situation; it should now be relatively presentable (although there are still some citations for which I shall track down a more specific page number, etc).

I've reworked or cut the questionable material for which citations were lacking. At some stage, a Wikipedian was pushing the idea that the Treveri were basically Germanic (I think the French article still reflects this preoccupation), while the actual evidence requires an explanation with much more nuance.

Per Ruhrfisch's suggestions:

  • I've expanded the lead section, trying to provide a good deal more context and highlighting those details that might be of most interest to the general reader.
  • I've also tried to combine paragraphs so as to avoid short sentences. A single paragraph for the Augustan/Tiberian/Claudian period would do nicely – this is the first flowering of Trier, according to Jullian, not to be replicated until the Gallic Empire. But the period is too long for just one paragraph. You may think my current solution inelegant, therefore; if so, I can try to rework it.
  • Having recently found a beautiful .svg map of the area for the time of Tacitus' Histories, I've used that instead of the pan-Gaulish one. There are advantages and disadvantages to the new map, of course – it's too 'zoomed in' for a user who has no idea of where the Moselle is to find useful. However, as simple map-making is one of my favourite passtimes, I may well do a series of maps of Treveran territory myself.

Per the automated peer review javascript program's comments:

  • I'm fairly sure there's no infobox for Celtic tribes. I'll put it on my list of things to consider doing for later.
  • I've addressed the units thing (I think; the recommendations seemed self-contradictory to me).
  • Although "headings generally should not repeat the title of the article" per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), I find that this happens in other articles for ethnic groups. For example, Cherokee includes a header for "Notable Cherokees".
  • This touches a nerve: My spellings are consistent. I use Canadian spellings. We have -ize and -ization in words like 'organize', but -our in words like neighbour. In this, Canadian usage also conforms with the recommendations of the Oxford English Dictionary. The javascript program really needs to be changed in this regard. There are more than two countries in the world that use English.

Still to do:

  • Getting date accessed and publisher for internet refs.
  • Saying something about the French name Trèves.
  • Grave monuments! I can't believe it, but somehow it slipped my mind to mention one of the most remarkable features of Treveran material culture – those wonderfully detailed funeral monuments found at Neumagen, not to mention the Igel column and other such memorials.
  • Figuring out what/how to reorder or rename in the last few sections to follow guidelines at Wikipedia:Guide to layout.
  • Satisfying criterion 1a, whatever that is.

Thanks again for the feedback! Q·L·1968 ☿ 13:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At this stage, I think I've now tackled all the things on my to-do list from peer review. Naturally, more could be said (especially on material culture, economics, etc), but I'm satisfied that we've made a good start. And we're already at 36 kb... Q·L·1968 ☿ 21:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Germanic" descent[edit]

"...they claimed Germanic descent". No, the Treveri made no such claim. Is this simply clumsy thinking? Or does someone's personal opinion need authenticating in this specious manner? Caesar is not explicit in De Bello Gallico about whether the Treveri are to be considered to belong to Gallia Celtica or Gallia Belgica, although the former hypothesis enjoys some favour. Other clues in the article point distinctly to Gaulish culture. --Wetman (talk) 03:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read the references. The bit about the Treveri claiming Germanic descent is footnoted not to Caesar but to Tacitus (Germania 28), which reads "The Treveri and Nervii are even eager in their claims of a German origin, thinking that the glory of this descent distinguishes them from the uniform level of Gallic effeminacy." --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Edited it into the article.--Wetman (talk) 21:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Tacitus quote could be interpreted as "...they claimed descent from inhabitants of Germania," or, "...the Treveri formerly resided in Germania," see my remark below. hgwb (talk) 09:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Germanic descent[edit]

This is as good a place as any to be impatient about Germanic and Germania, which were geographic terms, not ethnic, as far as I can see. Until shortly before Caesar all of Southern Germany (South of the Elbe) was inhabitated by Celts, as can be seen from numerous place names and archeological remains, probably descended from several waves of prehistoric immigrant nations, including the Cimmerians. My Latin tells me that 'germani' simply meant cousins, same root as in 'germ' and 'germaine'. The Romans may have remembered their North Alpine origins from migrations approx. 1,200 BC. The forebears of the later Germans (who never called themselves this) should be designated as 'Teutons', for lack of a better term (although 'teutones' and 'theodesci' very likely was borrowed from the culturally more advanced Celts in the South, meaning 'people'). The tortured derivation from Teutonic 'Geer', Lombard 'gaire', meaning 'spear' should be dismissed out of hand. St. Jerome, spent a year or more as a student in Trier, then an imperial capital city. He was a top-notch linguist who learnt Hebrew after moving to Jerusalem from a local Jewish man. His testimony that Galatians spoke almost the same Celtic tongue as the Treveri should be accepted without question. hgwb (talk) 05:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I largely agree with you, at least as far as an earlier period goes. ‘Teutons’ would generally be a better term than ‘Germans’ for the linguistic group, but in our region (ancient Gaul) the name ‘Teutons’ is much more specific and limited in reference. Worse, there are even some who believe the Teutons and Cimbri to have been Celtic (though I am not one of them). By late antiquity, though, what the Romans called Germania had been largely settled by Teutonic speakers – as, for that matter, were certain sections of the former provinces of Germania Inferior and Gallia Belgica. Naturally, this area does not correspond closely with the boundaries of the modern Federal Republic of Germany or any of its precursors. But this is a vexed and complex question which can hardly be exhaustively treated in an article on the Treveri. Is there an existing article (à la Celts vs. Gauls vs. Germans) we can link to? Q·L·1968 ☿ 21:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. See above how I would interpret the Tacitus quote as "...the Treveri formerly resided in Germania." That in late Roman times Teutons, Theodisci, resided far South of Elbe and Weser does not preclude that Treveri still spoke the ancestral tongue, similar to Galatian speech for St. Jerome's trained ears. hgwb (talk) 09:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You asked: 'Is there an existing article (à la Celts vs. Gauls vs. Germans) we can link to?' Perhaps the article about Raetia and Raetians would do. Here is a quote: "Even if their Etruscan origin be accepted, at the time when the land became known to the Romans, Celtic tribes were already in possession of it and had amalgamated so completely with the original inhabitants that, generally speaking, the Raetians of later times may be regarded as a Celtic people, although non-Celtic tribes (Lepontii, Euganei) were settled among them." -- The number of Celtic place names in the region is notable. A famous site, the Nördlinger Ries, almost certainly owes its designation as "Ries" or marsh to Celts, as a flat crater bottom historically prone to flooding. The word can still be found in Irish Gaelic dictionaries as "riasc," Engl. "marsh." This raises the question of whether the word is of even greater antiquity. The "Ries" name is akin to similar nearby places with wet ground called "Ried."hgwb (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

German is an anachronism and Germanic is ambiguous[edit]

First, "German" is an anachronism. If we're going to call anyone from classical antiquity "German," then we have to confront the fact that English and Dutch had not yet diverged from German. It would make more sense to describe this as a German wikipedia [one of many] than to describe, say, the Harudes from Scandinavia as German.

Second, the use of "Germanic" and "Germanic descent" is hopelessly vague. I think it's generally agreed that the Nametes and Eburones, two tribes often described as "Germanic" had Celtic names and were probably Gallic tribes, not Germanic in the linguistic sense. And if sources consider these "Germanic" in an unusual sense, then they aren't evidence for the Treveri being "Germanic" in the familiar linguistic sense of the term. 96.231.17.131 (talk) 06:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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