Talk:Toutatis

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The Teutones were not as is stereotypically thought of as the classic nordic/aryan peoples;even though their name has been used to categorise every garmanic tribe . They,along with their allies the cimbri were a tribe of the pre-viking age who shared a common north european celto/germanic culture.Their name,by simple logic suggests they worshipped Teutatis/Toutatis ,the god of the tuath/teuat or"tribe".The many finds in jutland show that the cultures of celtic britain and 'teutonic" denmark were basically the same. (anonymous)

The choice of the spelling invented for Astrerix doesn't fill the reader with confidence. The few instances of the name in literature could all be mentioned, to give us an idea of what the Romans thought this word signified, and a link to at least one discussion of Teutates would inspire confidence. --Wetman 12:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

That's because it is totally untrue that the spelling was invented for Astérix. More than one ancient inscription in Roman Britain or Gaul was dedicated to Toutatis or Mars Toutatis. Outside of Latin literary references, Toutatis is actually the most common spelling. QuartierLatin1968 17:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC) (BTW, Astérix did an unusually good job of historical research here. The phrase 'by Toutatis!' is calqued on the ancient Irish expression 'I swear by the god my tuath swears by', where tuath represents the same Celtic root for 'tribe' that we also find in the god-name Toutatis.)

Toutatis/Tîwaz

It seems to me that there is a linguistic similarity between the two above. It might offend Modern mores suggesting that Celtic God and a Germanic one may have the same basis, but they both have common attributes. the "Tis" at the end of the former and the "Ti" are surely cognate? Brendandh 00:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a common Indo-European root? Here in Germany Zeus is pronounced like "Tseus". The Latin word "deus" and the Indian term "deva" both mean "god", so maybe it doesn't necessarily refer to the old word for "people"? Fulcher (talk) 19:51, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Ten Inscriptions

I can find six inscriptions:

AE 1994, 01120 Little Walsingham

AE 2001, 01290 Lincolnshire

AE 2001, 01298 Benwell / Condercum

CIL 03, 11721 Seggauberg / Solva

CIL 06, 31182 Roma

RIB 00219 Barkway

What are the other four?

The online 'roman britain' version of RIB 01017 does not mention IOM. It says 'RIOCALAT ET TOVTAT MAR COCIDO VOTO FECIT VITALIS' and gives the findspot as unknown; inscription in Crosthwaite Museum http://www.roman-britain.org/epigraphy/rib_borders.htm The Clauss-Slaby Epigraphic database, on the other hand, does mention IOM but not Toutatis, and gives Cumberland Quarries as the location: 'I(ovi) O(ptimo) M(aximo) et / M(arti) / Coc(idio) vo/tu(m) feci/[t] Vita/[lis]' I have mailed the author of the 'roman britain' site for clarification.

Why is RIB 1897 mentioned? It has nothing to do with the subject: it says 'DIII LAT' http://www.roman-britain.org/epigraphy/rib_hadrianswall.htm --Nantonos 15:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:By-toutatis-asterix.jpg

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BetacommandBot 08:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation

The modern pronunciation is neither English nor French. Which language is it? — kwami (talk) 07:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Never mind. Added the pron. from the asteroid article. kwami (talk) 05:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't rush the intellectual race to the bottom! The pronunciation's Gaulish, of course, as it's a Gaulish name – in fact I think the British pronunciation at this time would have been the same as well. By the way, we should indicate phonemes // rather than phones [] because it is quite impossible to know how the phonemes of Gaulish might have been realized in practice. Speakers of English or French can pronounce this name as they please; I assume, however, that most would prefer to know what pronunciation approximates to that of the ancient name. Q·L·1968 ☿ 13:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead and add that to the English pron. kwami (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Is Toutatis the same as all these other Celtic Mars-es?

I've noticed that Albiorix, Rigisamos and Caturix all redirect to this page, Toutatis. How can we be certain that these other names are epithets for, or local tribal versions of, Toutatis? After all, Belatucadrus and Camulos were also identified with Mars yet these have separate articles. Nodens is sometimes equated with Mars also. �It is important to remember that, just as the Greeks called by the names of their own gods those of Egypt, Persia, and Babylonia, so the Romans identified Greek, Teutonic, and Celtic gods with theirs. The identification was seldom complete, and often extended only to one particular function or attribute. But, as in Gaul, it was often part of a state policy, and there the fusion of cults was intended to break the power of the Druids. The Gauls seem to have adopted Roman civilisation easily, and to have acquiesced in the process of assimilation of their divinities to those of their conquerors. Hence we have thousands of inscriptions in which a god is called by the name of the Roman deity to whom he was assimilated and by his own Celtic name--Jupiter Taranis, Apollo Grannus, etc. Or sometimes to the name of the Roman god is added a descriptive Celtic epithet or a word derived from a Celtic place-name. Again, since Augustus reinstated the cult of the Lares, with himself as chief Lar, the epithet Augustus was given to all gods to whom the character of the Lares could be ascribed, e.g. Belenos Augustus. Cults of local gods became cults of the genius of the place, coupled with the genius of the emperor. In some cases, however, the native name stands alone. The process was aided by art. Celtic gods are represented after Greco-Roman or Greco-Egyptian models. Sometimes these carry a native divine symbol, or, in a few cases, the type is purely native, e.g. that of Cernunnos. Thus the native paganism was largely transformed before Christianity appeared in Gaul. Many Roman gods were worshipped as such, not only by the Romans in Gaul, but by the Gauls, and we find there also traces of the Oriental cults affected by the Romans. There were probably in Gaul many local gods, tribal or otherwise, of roads and commerce, of the arts, of healing, etc., who, bearing different names, might easily be identified with each other or with Roman gods. Cæsar's Mercury, Mars, Minerva, etc., probably include many local Minervas, Mars, and Mercuries. There may, however, have been a few great gods common to all Gaul, universally worshipped, besides the numerous local gods, some of whom may have been adopted from the aboriginal peoples of Western Europe. I think it is very arbitrary to suppose that the Interpretatio Romana is the best indicator of two theonyms defining the same deity. What other grounds do you have for subsuming all these theonyms under the umbrella of Toutatis? I move for there to be the freedom to have individual articles on each theonym with points raised about the possible identity of one god with another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G.M.Gladehall G.M.Gladehall (talk) (talk • contribs) 18:02, 15 May 2008

Indeed. We cannot be certain of this, and it would be more prudent to create new articles for each of these epithets presenting the small amount of information we have on each. The procedure by which 'Celtic Mercury' used to be mechanically identified with Lugus, 'Celtic Mars' with Toutatis, and so on, was ill-conceived and should be abandoned. Q·L·1968 ☿ 14:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not change your contributions after other people have already reacted to the original version.

Having read the new portions of your post, G.M.Gladehall, I have no idea what substantive problems you see with the article as currently written. If you have any properly sourced information you want to add, please go ahead. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Evidence for Human Sacrifice

A small sampling of RELIABLE sources that discuss the archaeological evidence for human sacrifice among the ancient Celts:

• Miranda Jane Green, Dying for the Gods: Human Sacrifice in Iron Age & Roman Europe, Tempus, 2002.
• Barry W. Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts, Oxford University Press, 1997.
• Jean-Louis Brunaux, The Celtic Gauls: Gods, Rites and Sanctuaries. Translated by Daphne Nash, Seaby, 1988.
• Jean-Louis Brunaux, Gallic Blood Rites, Archaeology 54(2), 2001; pp. 54-57.
• Jeremiah R. Dandoy, Page Selinsky, and Mary M. Voigt, "Celtic Sacrifice"; Archaeology,Volume 55 Number 1, January/February 2002. https://archive.archaeology.org/0201/etc/celtic.html
• Page Selinsky, "A Preliminary Report on the Human Skeletal Material from Gordion's Lower Town Area", in: Lisa Kealhofer (ed.), The Archaeology of Midas and the Phrygians: Recent Work at Gordion, UPenn Museum of Archaeology, 2005, pp. 117-136.
• Ian Armit, Headhunting and the Body in Iron Age Europe, Cambridge University Press, Mar 19, 2012
• John Koch, Celtic Culture: a historical encyclopedia, ABC-CLIO, 2006, pp. 856, 1070, 1073, 1510, 1541, 1549-1552, 1751-1752,
• Philip Freeman, St. Patrick of Ireland: A Biography, Simon and Schuster, 2005, pp. 100-101.

Please consult these before undoing my edit to remove nonsense that there is no archaeological evidence for Celtic human sacrifice! Cagwinn (talk) 00:19, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Base of a column depicting Toutatis

What's the source of the figure being Toutatis? It seems to be Mercury with the Caduceus. The Gaulish Mercury is rarely associated with Toutatis.

--Julienor94 (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Teutates is ligurian god

User:Asarlaí, User:Escape Orbit, Teutates was one of three Ligurian gods mentioned by the Roman poet Lucan in the first century AD, the other two being Esus ("lord") and Taranis ("thunderer"). According to later commentators, victims sacrificed to Teutates were killed by being plunged headfirst into a vat filled with an unspecified liquid. Of two later commentators on Lucan's text, one identifies Teutates with Mercury, the other with Mars.

De Bello Civili (On the Civil War), more commonly referred to as the Pharsalia, is a Roman epic poem written by the poet Lucan, from book 1, card 5 :

Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme; And those who pacify with blood accursed Savage Teutates, Hesus' horrid shrines, And Taranis' altars, cruel as were those Loved by Diana, goddess of the north (Padania); All these now rest in peace. And you, ye Bards, Whose martial lays send down to distant times The fame of valorous deeds in battle done, Pour forth in safety more abundant song. While you, ye Druids, when the war was done, To mysteries strange and hateful rites returned: To you alone 'tis given the heavenly gods To know or not to know; secluded groves Your dwelling-place, and forests far remote. If what ye sing be true, the shades of men Seek not the dismal homes of Erebus Or death's pale kingdoms; but the breath of life Still rules these bodies in another age- Life on this hand and that, and death between. Happy the peoples 'neath the Northern Star (Padania) In this their false belief; for them no fear Of that which frights all others: they with hands And hearts undaunted rush upon the foe And scorn to spare the life that shall return.

— Lucan (1st century AD).

In the time of ancient Rome northern Italy (or Padania) was called the "north" and the states the "northern kingdoms". The one and only text mentioning the god teutates is in the book Pharsalia of Lucan. But Lucan mentions Ligurian beliefs, an Italic people living in Padania (northern Italy). There is no mention of a French or British Celtic Gallic god. Moreover, the consonance of the names of the Ligurian gods does not correspond either to Celtic or British languages.

Lucain cites the peoples living in the "north", he speaks of the Celts, then of the Germans living beyond the Alps. Then he speaks of the Ligurians, the first people because they are the Barbarians closest to the Romans, they live in northern Italy inside the Alpine arc. When he speaks of the Ligurians, he tells of their beliefs in particular the Teutates. Julienor94 (talk) 13:37, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

there is no mention of a Gallic god anywhere except in the racial ideologies of 19th century France. No historical text or archaeological record relates to this.--Julienor94 (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Your position seems to be largely based on your interpretation of a text. As you'll be aware, as an encyclopedia, Wikipedia does not contain original research. Do you have any reliable sources that defines the subject this way? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Julienor, as Escape Orbit noted, your argument and your rewrite is based entirely on your misreading of an ancient text. See my version here, where I have provided modern, reliable, academic sources from Celtic studies experts saying Toutatis is a Celtic god, whose name comes from proto-Celtic, and who is named in inscriptions from various parts of Celtic-speaking Gaul, Britain and Noricum. Many more sources can be found to back that up. You have repeatedly deleted this detail and the references, replacing them with your own unsourced commentary. Again, do you have any reliable sources calling Toutatis a 'Ligurian god'? ~Asarlaí 13:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The one and only text mentioning Teutates is the historical account of Lucan and it does mention that Teutates is in the culture of the Ligurians. He makes no allusion to the Celts or the Germanics. He divides the barbarian peoples of the north into 3. The Celts and the Germans then the Ligurians. You're the one talking about interpretation, There is no historical text that speaks of a Gallic god. What text speaks of a Gallic god ?--Julienor94 (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Asarlaí so by reading the text you understand that the Celts have Toutatis as God? The problem is that Asterix is not a reliable source. And stop talking about interpretations, you are the one doing them. You are put in front of Lucan's text and you find yourself saying the opposite of what is marked. I am not expecting interpretations from the baker or pseudo historians but the precise texts that quote Teutates, the Gallic god. Your interpretations have no value here, Only the texts and the proofs count. You speak of the proto Celtic language even though the Celts could neither read nor write. Celtic is not even a unified language but a multitude of dialects of which nothing remains. What are you talking about as a scientist who studied the Celtic proto and say that Teutates derives from the Celtic proto. You talk nonsense.--Julienor94 (talk) 16:04, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

"The one and only text mentioning Teutates is the historical account of Lucan" - the Institutiones Divinae calls him a Gaulish god, as does the Commenta Bernensia. Then there are the inscriptions naming him in various parts of Celtic Europe.

"He makes no allusion to the Celts" - the whole chunk of text right before that sentence is about the Celtic peoples of Gaul.

"Stop talking about interpretations, you are the one doing them" - I haven't interpreted anything myself. Like I said, everything I've added comes from modern, reliable, academic sources from experts in Celtic studies and linguistics. They have interpreted Lucan's passage and call Toutatis a Celtic god. They note that his name is linguistically Celtic, and he is named in inscriptions from various parts of Celtic Europe. I ask you again to show a modern academic source that calls Toutatis a 'Ligurian god'.

Please read WP:NOR again and the bit about primary sources (especially points 4 and 5). ~Asarlaí 18:16, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Julienor94, see also the following comment from Alcaios at the original research noticeboard:

Read WP:RS and WP:OR. (1) ancient writers used "Ligurian" as both an ethnic and geographical description (4) ancient Celtic speakers could write their own languages with Old Italic, Greek, and Latin scripts. (3) Toutatis is also attested on an inscription from Britain (Marti Toutati; CIL VII 84), where no Ligure is known to have lived.
— User:Alcaios

Also, see the quotes from the following references, which I've now added to the article:

Teutates (also Toutatis, Tūtuates, Tūtatus, Toutorix), Taranis, and Esus form Lucan's trinity of Gaulish gods (Pharsalia 1.444–6) to which Gauls near Massalia sacrificed their prisoners of war. The name Teutates occurs alone or as a secondary theonym in combination with Mars, Apollo (see Belenos), and Mercurius in texts and inscriptions, including sites now in Austria, England, France, Germany, and Italy...
— John T. Koch, Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia, p.1665

Teutates (later form: Toutates). Name of a Celtic god [...] T. is mentioned by the Roman authors Lucan (Pharsalia 1,444-446) and Lactantius (Divinae Institutiones 1,21,3). According to Lucan the Gauls made human sacrifices to him. The Berne Scholia, commenting on Lucan, add that the victims were put head-first in a tub full of water and thus drowned...
— Bernhard Maier, Dictionary of Celtic Religion and Culture, pp.263-264

What the Romans may have met in Celtic lands are tribal protector-gods with a war-role. In this connection Lucan's comment on Teutates, who was one of three Celtic gods said to have been encountered by Caesar's army in Gaul, may be relevant...
— Miranda Aldhouse-Green, The Gods of the Celts, p.110

Lucan, who, in Pharsalia, names three Celtic deities, Teutates, Taranis, and Esus. All were propitiated by human sacrifice: the victims of Teutates were to be drowned, those of Taranis burnt, and those sacrificed to Esus hanged. The Celtic names are informative. Teutates means 'the god of the tribe' from the Celtic teutā 'tribe'...
— Barry Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts, p.275

Again, have you any modern academic sources that call Toutatis a 'Ligurian god'? ~Asarlaí 12:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Fortunately the the way Wikipedia works is very easy and straighforward. Either you have a reliable source and/or authority of the subject that calls Toutatis a Ligurian god, or you don't. If you don't then we have nothing to discuss here until you produce one. No-one is interested in your personal analysis of a primary source text. I encourage you to find a suitable place somewhere else to publish it, because Wikipedia isn't the place to do that. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way, Lucan implies that Ligures are to be counted amongst Gauls in this excerpt, since he is listing them after a number of Gaulish tribes (cf. Duval, Paul-Marie (1958). "Notes sur la civilisation gallo-romaine, IV. «Teutates, Esus, Taranis»". Études celtiques. 8 (1): 41–42. doi:10.3406/ecelt.1958.1302.. Alcaios (talk) 12:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

here from WP:ORN Given that every reliable secondary source cited in this article describes Toutatis as a Celtic god, it seems pretty clear to me that unless Julienor94 can provide a reliable source which describes him as a Ligurian god, we should revert to the version which isn't based on original research. Lucan was writing poetry, not history or anthropology or a study of comparative religion, and that he refers to the god as Ligurian is nowhere near compelling enough evidence to outweigh the consensus of modern reliable sources. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

It's really bad time what you are doing. The only ancient text quoting Teutates is that of Lucan and it is during his passage over the Ligurians. In this passage he is not talking about the Celts or the Britons. A 6-year-old understands it by reading it. Don't tell me you don't understand. So my passage is erased but I propose to put it in a paragraph of dispute.Do you know that all your references are interpretations? There is no proof of what you are actually saying. Do you at least understand what archaeological or scientific evidence is? You are placed before the one and only source and you dispute it by relying on people who make their interpretation of it. We dream there. Anyway no one is fooled by reading the text. In fact, you are lying to yourself.--Julienor94 (talk) 19:14, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

you dispute it by relying on people who make their interpretation of it: that is one of the most fundamental pillars of how Wikipedia works – we report what reliable sources say. When all the reliable secondary sources say one thing and the support for the other side is a primary source and a hypothetical six-year-old, we report the thing the reliable sources agree on. If you want Wikipedia to say that Toutatis was a Ligurian god, you need to find reliable sources which say that – not simply Lucan, who is not a reliable source for comparative religion or ethnography. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:25, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Can you stop vandalizing the Teutates page. You are told again that your interpretations are not historical evidence. Asterix never existed. Here is the problem :

1 - The only text mentioning Teutates is Lucan's account. In this account Lucan writes very explicitly that Teutates is a Ligurian god. There is no possible interpretation. I put the text with the reference in the page.

2 - There is no ancient text that speaks of a Celtic god. If not which one?

3 - There is no archaeological evidence of a Celtic god if not where?

4 - Celtic is not a defined language, it was a multitude of dialects. Moreover, there is no trace left because the Celts could neither read nor write. We cannot therefore study this language and even less a pseudo Celtic proto language. Thus it is impossible to say that Teutates would come from the Celtic language.

5 - The writings on wikipedia take turns constantly and downright base myths that never existed on the Celts.

The problem is that I think you don't understand what proof is. I can't explain to you but telling them is not proof. A proof is a historical text attesting to something or an archaeological trace of something. Yes Asterix was in Brittany but this is not proof. A writer commenting and giving his interpretation is not proof. You understand ?Julienor94 (talk) 20:46, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to give you a warning on your talk page. Further edit warring on this article will get you blocked. You have been asked repeatedly for sources for your changes, you clearly have none. As has been explained politely to you multiple times, what you are contributing is your own original research, which has no value to Wikipedia. Please stop. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:50, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I now also see that you have already been blocked for a period for exactly the same behaviour on another article. Unfortunately you seem to have difficulty understanding (or refuse to understand) what Wikipedia is and how it works. On that basis, I have notified the 3RR noticeboard and will let admins decide. I urge you to find somewhere else to publish your ideas. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Tuisto pregenitor of Ingaevones, Irminoenes, Istaevenes. the three tribes of Europe

Ingaevonic language group, aka Northsea germanic, descends from tribe of Ingvi, son of Mannus, son of Tuisto. Irminonic is from tribe of Erman son of Mannus. from Celtic Germania area Istaevones from Ista, son of Mannus

Tuisto progenitor of thee three tribes.
main source: Tacitus Germania 172.78.225.85 (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)