Talk:Tornada (Occitan literary term)

Tornada (Occitan literary term) has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
February 25, 2013	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 20, 2013.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the tornada is the Occitan equivalent of the Old French envoi, the Galician-Portuguese finda, and the Italian congedo and commiato?

DYK nomination[edit]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tornada (Occitan literary term)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ColonelHenry (talk · contribs) 03:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC) I look forward to reviewing this article in the next few hours.--ColonelHenry (talk) 03:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments[edit]

The tornada is equivalent to the Old French envoi, the Galician-Portuguese finda, and the Italian congedo and commiato, the Occitan lyrical tradition having served as the model for these and other Romance languages.[3] -- the Occitan lyrical tradition having served is a rather awkward construction, This sentence really needs to be rephrased...especially with the inherent weakness of a sentence that hinges on a participle like "having", and then having a complex and convoluted catena with a past-tense served following.

Agreed, changed. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where the confusion arises is considering the audience of the lowest common denominator...I write an article thinking "some dumb ninth grader who doesn't know how to research and doesn't know anything about the subject is going to plagiarise my article for a book report." I am aware of what Occitan (and the langue d'oc) is due to considerable scholarship on the Cathars and frequent trips to Carcassonne, but most people do not. For instance, an uninformed observer would benefit from a frame that sets the stage...a few sentences discussing placement in time and summarizing the importance of the broader topic where the tornada resides--i.e. when this Occitan literature emerged compared to others, why it has primacy over other literary traditions, the phenomenon of the troubadors and how their work generated the legacy. Just a paragraph or a few additional sentences in the first paragraph would be key to set the stage. I think focusing on the etymology of tornada/tornat/etc. slows down the stage-setting. That itt impacted other literatures...largely this was due to the migration of the troubadors from city to city, court to court. Mention the dynamics of its spread. I think this discussion would benefit from just a sentence or two that explains the historical dynamic from which this poetry emerged. --ColonelHenry (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The metrical structure and rhyme of the tornada, as it originated in Provence, usually reproduces the last part (cauda) of the preceding stanza -- How is the topic sentence contingent to as it originated in Provence. Elucidate why Provence, metrical structure, rhyme and the cauda are connected.

I meant it in the sense of the original tornada, produced in Provence (the epicentre of the Occitan language) reproduces those attributes. How would you prefer it to be worded? MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Had an attempt at rewording. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That would be where a brief summary as mentioned above would benefit... The region of Provence was the epicentre of the Occitan language and culture, etc. The tornada takes on the attributes of the cauda (last part) of the preceding stanza through its unique combination of metrical structure and rhyme would be more effective...and then follow it up with how the metrical structure and rhyme are unique (i.e. examples) within its usage akin to the cauda. --ColonelHenry (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Give examples by Petrarch and Dante. If they really are notable vis-a-vis the tornada, tell me why.

Will find some and do that, Levin provides several examples. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Provided a good example by Dante that demonstrates his method. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since Petrarch and Dante are later, a brief mention of how they came to adopt the style would be warranted as well. --ColonelHenry (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Give examples how the form developed over time in Occitan poetry, and how it developed in other literatures. Expand the discussion of its legacy...how, when, who,

Expanded this section to include Sicilian variety and the Dolce Stil Novo. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Right now the article doesn't show the mechanics of a tornada through examples, scansion, and properly showing something by which the reader can walk away and on a later encounter say "ah, this is a tornada". Explain, explain, explain.

I think it would be very difficult to adequately summarise the diversity of the stanza form; as an example statement, Butterfield says: "The sheer variety of musical devices and compositional features makes it hard to generalize about the music of the troubadours." But I will try. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can appreciate that analysis. The troubadors' art was improvisatory by nature and influenced by a considerably diverse number of ethnic traditions...stuff that books and dissertations are made of. --ColonelHenry (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Remove "notable" from notable poets in the sentence with Petrarch and Dante...it's peacocking.

Agreed. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You use the term "Occitan lyrical tradition" a few times...it is rather empty unless it explained. it isn't adequately explained what it means and why it is important.

Provided an expanded definition. But I'm wary of going into a full-length elaboration of a vast lyric tradition; hope that is adequate now. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...concludes that the "tornada developed in the Italian lyric from a simple concluding formula to a sophisticated projection of the poet's message through the medium of a human character." This quote from Levin (footnote 8) really needs to be explained, because it's really empty academic nonsense.

I used that quotation really to suggest that a lyric tradition (such as Italian) has developed the tornada in ways not envisaged by the origin Occitan. But I can explain it if you think that would help.

the caption for the image would be better served as an example in the text. it might run afoul of WP:CAPTION because of its length and content. I do not believe it meets the five guidelines for a good caption listed therein.

Agreed, I didn't add the text caption myself but I've thought it needed integrating. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this article needs more categories...I'd recommend Literary terms, Poetic form, and if there is a Catalan usage of this in addition to its position in Occitan lit, how about Spanish poetry or Catalan poetry, maybe linked to poetry of a certain era (is this renaissance or medieval?)

Done. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

if a tornada is a cobla, why is it not mentioned in the Cobla article?

To be frank, because WP's coverage of this subject area is appalling and has major gaps. A cobla is simply the general Occitan term for a stanza, and so a tornada is a cobla. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The newly added quotebox with the example...do you have a translation of that example?--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Candidly, by my first impressions of the article, I have sincere doubts that this article is not broad enough in its coverage to warrant GA status at this time. Do you think this article could be adequately expanded in a week or two-weeks time?--ColonelHenry (talk) 07:17, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will do my best to make sure it's broad enough in the coming days. Truth be told, I imagined it was broad enough when I nominated it, because it's a very limited subject, but clearly that's not the case. Thanks for the initial review, will update my comments as I make changes. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second pass[edit]

I notice the emendations by the nominator and have performed a copyedit on the piece that both repaired minor errors, rephased a few sentences, and moved around a few sentences to paragraphs where their content was more appropriate (i.e. flow, continuity). I also included two or three lines from related articles Occitan language, Troubadour in order to add brief context. The following are issues I noticed on a second pass that should be addressed:

PARAGRAPH 3: the majority of their poems can be categorised as cansos (love songs), sirventes (satires), and the cobla (individual stanzas). connect this with the tornada. would it be correct to appened "which often employed the tornada" or something that elucidates the connection?
PARAGRAPH 4: by "surrounding material" do you mean the verses that came before the tornada?

I mean both before and after the tornada if it's developed throughout the poem. Not sure if that can succinctly be made more specific, hence "surrounding material". MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PARAGRAPH 4: used to create new narrative material—as in the pastorela “L’autrier jost’una sebissa”. Can you expand this to include this particular example? what is the new narrative material in this poems tornada and how does it compare to other themes in the pastorela?

Expanded the statement. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

QUOTEBOX: "Tant ai mo cor ple de joya" needs a translation.

I'm searching, but I have my doubts as to whether or not I will be able to find a translation of the title. Sorry. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 21:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

title: my heart is now so full of joy
the tornada: Go, messengers, and run, / and tell the people of / the pain and sorrow that it brings / and final martyrdom.--ColonelHenry (talk) 22:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PARAGRAPH 5: tornada metrically replicated the second half (sirima) of the preceding stanza, -- simplify/explain this...a reader will ask "how?" and without knowing the sirima, they have nothing to compare it to.

Tried to make things clearer and to give some more information. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 21:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PARAGRAPH 5: Comparatively, the Sicilian tornada formed the entire last strophe of a canzone (a song or ballad) and was limited in subject matter. Here, a reader will ask "how?" how was it limited? , what subject matter?

Similarly, tried to make things clearer and to give some more information. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 21:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PARAGRAPH 5: I am pretty sure you mean Guido Cavalcanti (1250-1300) who was a contemporary of Dante and other stilnovisti, and not the later Giovanni Cavalcanti (1444-1509) who was a contemporary of one of my favourite poets of the period, Poliziano, and others of the Medici patronage.

Very likely. It shows when I'm in a rush. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PARAGRAPH 5: where the stanza form was developed throughout an entire poem. -- elaborate on this, how? it doesn't convey any information beyond labels to an average, unaware reader.

Elaborated. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 21:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Once these are addressed/resolved, I will do a final copyedit, fill out the final scorecard template applying the GA criteria and I am confident it will be a GA.--ColonelHenry (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As above, made several changes that should resolve the issues you raise. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 21:29, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Checklist[edit]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Pass

This is a useful article on a literary device from Occitan poetry that became popular in Medieval and Renaissance literature, and used by many notable poets. The article presents the key information and a broad analysis of this subject in an accessible yet reliable manner. Congratulations on an excellent article that deserves inclusion among the best that Wikipedia has to offer. --ColonelHenry (talk) 23:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the very detailed review and for making so many contributions yourself, the final work demonstrates it was worth the effort. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 00:20, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]