Talk:Toohoolhoolzote

One sided

The article as I have written it is one sided. It is the account from on of the Nez Perce's (Yellow Wolf's) perspective. It needs to be given balance with General Howard's view--he wrote a book or books on the subject.Jacqke (talk) 09:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks OK to me, a straight biography. I tossed "chief" as most of the time the word is used, it is an English translation by white people, not a translation to English by native speakers. Joseph himself called him Toohoolhoolzote without the honorific. (Though there is also some doubt if Chief Joseph ever actually gave the famous speech ascribed to him ... Native American history is a minefield out there.) Because those who care do care a LOT, I usually avoid using a word like "chief" unless the political and spiritual leaders of that person's home nation have uniformly and officially said it's OK to say "chief." That said, we can't do much with "Chief" Joseph because it's so widely known and "Joseph" alone is so doggone common, and his name in his own language is not well-known, though he actually was a diplomat, not a military leader. Sitting Bull is another case in point. It's sometimes a little frustrating, because the different Indian nations are all over the map on this, but I've yet to see someone jumped on for NOT using the term. Montanabw^(talk) 18:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.Jacqke (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of name?

'Toohoolhoozote (Sound made when striking any vibrant timber or metal with a hard substance)' doesn't agree with 'According to the Nez Perce dictionary, Toohoolhoolzote was a transliteration of tukulkulcúᐧt, which meant antelope' So which one is correct?Dean1954 (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Dean1954, I will argue for "Sound made when striking any vibrant timber or metal with a hard substance", put forth by Lucullus Virgil McWhorter and Yellow Wolf.
First fluency. Yellow Wolf was a native speaker when the language was at its height. The meaning of Toohoolhoolzote's name comes from him, transmitted by McWhorter through his book from his conversations with Yellow Wolf. The dictionary, I have been led to believe, was compiled by missionaries; and while they certainly did everyone a service, they might not have been exposed to abstract concepts, such as the way something sounds. I'd like to think that fluent modern speakers could sort this out, however a modern fluent speaker might not have the vocabulary, simply because any that are alive today learned the language after it was used less widely. With fewer people speaking it, some concepts likely never came up in conversation for them to learn.
Second, reliability. Not only might the missionaries not have been exposed to certain concepts, but the people around them might not have broached some areas of knowledge, either to avoid offending or else from outright distrust. McWhorter faced the latter, when Yellow Wolf's people confronted him about talking to a white man. My point here is that Yellow Wolf, by allowing McWhorter to cross examine him, was a nearly unique source. The question is, do you trust McWhorter and Yellow Wolf as reliable sources? Here is McWhorter's book. The info is in the footnote on page 36.
One last area to consider, and this would also require talking to members of the tribe: tribal traditions might indicate if one name is more likely than the other, as for example Mourning Dove (another tribe), who was told in the boarding school that Mourning Dove was a translation of her name, only to find out later that her tribe's traditions did not name girls with bird names. I don't know if this muddy's the water or makes it more clear for you. I wonder now if both versions need to be included.Jacqke (talk) 01:14, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

As to the naming traditions, this link connects to text by Kate McBeth, one of the missionaries to the Nez Perce; it speaks to naming traditions. Paragraph from Kate McBeth's journal: "Mens names were from the large birds, fierce animals, Womans names from the lesser animals & birds or from the land if from the land has the suffix Mah, my All tribes use the names of bear. Wolf goose Eagle for mens names. Koyate is in evidence all through Nez Perce traditions, proclaiming himself at all times to be invulnerable. "I may be killed or drowned twenty times but still I live" he was the chief of the larger animals. Ale tup nin (mink) chief of the smaller furred animals. Original names were from Alla yim nah, Spirit of Wind Ah lew yah (Winter) or heat or any of the roots. variations in meaning were made usually by suffixes. Chiefs names were from large birds, beasts & Sun no names from the moon (Moon is simply the sun of the night.) Children or people given names from some striking peculiarity seen about them. As Timps te te lew -- (large cherries.) Hin ma tom Selu (lightnings eyes) Many outlandish names with seemingly no reason for the name she kam tsits kan (horses blanket) Mat si you poh it (five ears) Et pa lat ket a name sung to keep the bad from going down to death. they had a vague idea of a place of sorrow where the bad spirits were. No talk of the Happy hunting Ground." Jacqke (talk) 01:29, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

Does anyone have any information on how to pronounce his name? There are a few "pronunciations" online but as far as I can tell, they're just computers reading the word phonetically. Seems important to include at the top of the article if anyone has a source. A brief google search didn't turn up much. Bustedflatnola (talk) 02:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Bustedflatnola, I never tried to find that when I was working on the article. I suspect that if anyone could answer the question it would be someone at the Niimiipuu Language Program. I wish you success, Jacqke (talk) 02:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)