Talk:Toby Keith/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Sadly?

"The album sadly spent 65 weeks on the top-10 Billboard Country Albums chart." Removing "sadly"

Source for Peter Jennings comment?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/28/60II/main580469.shtml

Recording contract by 30?

"Keith had promised himself to have a recording contract by the time he was 30 years old or give up on music as a career. He was approaching that age without any prospects for a recording contract." There appears to be a factual error somewhere because the article states he didn't go to Nashville until he was already 32.

Keith's Recent Awards

Toby Keith's Recent Awards
2005 CMA Music Video of the Year
2004 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Video Collaboration of the Year
2004 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Video Director of the Year
2004 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Video of the Year
2003 Academy of Country Music Album of the Year
2003 Academy of Country Music Entertainer of the Year
2003 Academy of Country Music Top Male Vocalist
2003 Academy of Country Music Video of the Year
2003 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Cocky Video of the Year
2003 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Male Video of the Year
2003 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards Video of the Year
2002 CMT Flameworthy Video Music Awards "LOL" (Laugh Out Loud) Video of the Year
2001 CMA Male Vocalist of the Year

Illiteracy

I've heard Toby can't read. I've heard books are like cryptonite to him. Is this true? What say you out there in country music land? What say you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.190.230.57 (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC). I doubt this is totally true. However, the biography makes no mention of his academic performance in high school. Another open question, He is known to write most of his own songs- at least lyrically. What about writing and reading music, doe she know all that notation? Also to have worked his way up as he did in the oilfield industry. However, his background, I would not be surprised if he only does a limited about of reading. Wfoj2 15:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it absolutely hilarious that both of these comments suggesting Mr. Keith is illiterate are, themselves, riddled with grammatical errors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.234.244 (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

He can read, he's not some illiterate hick!

--Kay Lynn (talk) 22:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Toby is, by definition, the most illiterate hick on the planet. His political views are skewed, he has zero connection with the common man, and he owns slaves.71.50.1.61 (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

And whose definition would that be? The Unabridged Anonymous Internet Crackpot Dictionary? Or is there some other source that would say something that incredibly stupid? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I looked it up in the "Sarcastic Dictionary of Terms that Confuse and Infuriate People Who Don't Get Jokes." I think that's published by HarperCollins, if you're interested in picking up a copy. 71.50.1.61 (talk) 01:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't flatter yourself. You don't infuriate me. I'd have to actually care about your opinion. You amuse me. Trolls always do. And calling idiocy "sarcasm" doesn't make it so. It just shows you are trying to cover yourself with a blanket of legitimacy. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, somone is certainly proud of their education. But it would seem more likely to me that, if you honestly didn't care, you wouldn't respond at all. Allow me to demonstrate by not responding to whatever you say next. I know it looks complicated, but with a little time and patience, you, too, can learn to not take people on the internet seriously.71.50.14.143 (talk) 12:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Not taking them seriously and leaving their libelous remarks and general stupidity unchallenged are entirely different matters. While your opinion is of less importance to me than picking up gum on my shoe, it still merits exposure as bigotry. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Number 1 of ?

As the lead single from the album Unleashed (2002), "Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue" peaked at number 1 over the weekend of July 4.

As I'm not familiar with the charts in the US, I would be interested in a change of this sentence into something that mentions that he peaked at number 1 of the US country charts. One can find that information at the bottom of the page, but I'd rather read have it in the text. -- Jan, July 6th, 2006

Needs editing

These following areas need to be streamlined and edited. 2 Discography
2.1 Albums
2.2 Singles

ILLITERATE

Toby CAN READ, he just CAN'T READ MUSIC. There is a big difference.

Jean - Tobybears71.117.36.12 15:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU! —Preceding unsigned comment added by KLynnS (talk • contribs) 23:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, can some one explain to my how you become a huge singer with Toby Keith's guitar abilities without being able to read music? I mean come on! Seriously you people can't be that....stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilovetk (talk • contribs) 22:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Toby only plays rhythm guitar as far I can tell (i.e., he just strums; I can't say that I've ever seen him play lead). If he can't read music, it probably means that a.) he plays by ear, b.) he knows the finger patterns for the various chords, but he couldn't tell you the individual notes that he's playing, or c.) (very unlikely) he's just faking the rhythm part. I know that Brent Mason, one of the top session guitarists in Nashville, can't read music either, and just plays by ear. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 00:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you suppose Ray Charles read music? Stevie Wonder? A lot of musicians don't read music or do so poorly. That's where we get the term "playing by ear" from. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
FYI, Paul McCartney can't read music either. [1] 76.191.174.198 (talk) 16:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.google.com/search?q="paul+mccartney"+"read+music"

Citation found "Creative Differences with Mercury Records"

The Patriot Act: Is the tough-talking, rabble-rousing, pot-toking, beer- swilling country superstar TOBY KEITH really as mean as he looks?(Features)(Interview). Author- Chris Willman. Entertainment Weekly 735 (Oct 31, 2003): p38. (1903 words)

He didn't quite land on skid row. His producer, James Stroud, had just taken over as head of DreamWorks Nashville; they bought the masters for $120,000 and put it out, resulting in Keith's biggest hit to that point. "And if I had made one bad choice and s--- canned my own songs, where could I be today?" (Mercury Nashville chairman Luke Lewis says Keith and another exec "had creative differences, and I let him go to DreamWorks because he wasn't happy and it seemed sort of dysfunctional. I wouldn't say any of us aren't capable of goofing.")


Stovk64 23:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"Supper club?"

What the hell is a "supper club"? Any of you rednecks care to explain?

Do you mind not being so patronizing? I wouldn't even have answered this douche when he asks something so rudely. Wikitoddia 18:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
So he can't call anyone a redneck, but you can call him a douche. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 19:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

When you're that rude to other people, you deserve any treatment you get.Wikitoddia 23:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted that ridiculous, offensive definition of a supper club. What an idiot. Wiki should have deleted that some time ago.A.d.diamond 21:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Nico8amber 22:23, 28 August 2007 (UTC) - I don't know what kind Supper Clubs you've been to, but your imagination certainly strays to the obscene - though I'm certain most other Wikipedia readers already recognize that you currently live outside of reality. My guess is that mashed potatoes play an important (albeit decadent) role in your fantasy world! In reality, whether redneck or not, a supper Club is basically a homestyle restaurant with a bar and musical entertainment - usually local bands and country singers. It was a great way for upcoming musicians to get their start. Toby's grandmother happened to own one where he spent many of his young summers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nico8amber (talk • contribs) 22:23, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Oklahoma City Drillers

Were the Oklahoma City Drillers a USFL team? I don't think so. I believe the USFL team from Oklahoma was the Outlaws (who merged with the Arizona Wranglers and became the Arizona Outlaws). I know Toby did play semi-pro football, but I don't think he ever played professional football. The USFL, while a step below the NFL, was professional, not semi-pro. He even mentions playing semi-pro football in his new song Honky Tonk U:

"I have sacked some quarterbacks,
and broke my share of bones along the way
I knew it wouldn't last forever,
semi-pro always means semi-paid."
Honky Tonk U, 2005

RHolecko 16:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe that last line is more of a reference to how Toby Keith did not get to the NFL, not a statement saying that Keith did not technically play professional football. The idea is that practically speaking, the only "real" professional sports league is the NFL, with the rest being "semi-pro" on the basis that the salaries they provide would not be enough for the job to be a living, even if they're technically "professional" (the CFL is technically professional but its players make a fraction of what NFL players make, although I'm not quite sure if its salaries are comparable (on a relative scale) to the USFL). The point here is that "semi-pro" is a metaphor, not a statement of fact.
Having said that, the Drillers WERE affiliated with the USFL, although they were not the main club- they were a farm club for the Outlaws and were thus technically semi-pro anyway. It's possible, though, that Keith may have broken into the Outlaws' lineup a few times. -RomeW


How come no one speaks of Toby playing in the Red/White Sooners 1994 Spring Game where he played in the final two plays and on the last play got jacked up and blew out his ankle ? I do not think he was part of any organized football team ?????

Dixie Chicks

"Keith also had a public feud with the Dixie Chicks over the song, as well as comments they made from the stage about President George W. Bush. The lead singer of the Dixie Chicks, Natalie Maines, publicly stated that the song was "ignorant, and it makes country music sound ignorant." Keith defeated the Dixie Chicks to win Entertainer of The Year from the Academy of Country Music (2002)."

That last sentence seems to be implying that that he "won" the feud by receving some award. It seems irrelevent to the topic, but I don't know enough about either of these artists or this controversy to feel comfortable with removing it. So, I guess my question is: does this have any relevance to the controversy, or is it just an attempt to make the Dixie Chicks look bad? 68.8.201.7 02:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

No one responded, so I removed it 68.8.201.7 06:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Db3811 21:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)Belatedly, I would have to suggest that it was quite relevant to the controversy as the awards represent the country music 'establishment' view: the establishment view was reflected in the ceremonail burning/crushing of Dixie Chicks CDs organized by radio stations, their refusal to play DC songs even until now, and SIGNIFICANTLY in awarding Toby Keith the ACM award. Basically, the ACM was saying that if favored Keith's ultra-patriotism than the DCs' dissenting voices. I personally believe that, as far as country music was concerned, that was indeed the resolution of that dispute and that the article was fine as it was. However, I will leave it up to you to comment and then decide whether or not you wish to reinstate it.



" Awards. [3] While a spokesperson for the Dixie Chicks said that the acronym stood for "Friends United in Truth and Kindness," many including host Vince Gill took it to be a shot at Keith. In August 2003, Keith publicly declared he was done feuding with Maines 'because he's realized there are far more important things to concentrate on'.[4] However, he continues to refuse to say Maines's name, and claims that the doctored photo was intended to express his feeling that Maines's criticism was tyrannical and a dictator-like attempt to squelch Keith's free speech.[5]

In the 2006 film Shut Up and Sing, Maines confirmed that the FUTK shirt was in fact a shot at Toby Keith, after once claiming that it meant Freedom Understanding Truth "

This article seems to contradict itself as to the stated meaning of "FTUK"

I maybe nitpicking but I think it's a tad biased to say that Natalie "finally admitted" it was an obscene shot, surely it could just be "decided" or something. It makes it sound like she was always in the wrong, and if this were to be unbiased, surely that should be removed.

Joe

Admitted is more accurate. Maines denied what it meant and made up a lie for the acronym. Later she admitted that it really was a dig at Keith. One admits they lied. Saying "confirmed" sounds like she never lied about it and just decided one say to clear up the speculation. I put admitted back.Niteshift36 (talk) 07:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


I agree, Niteshift36. Maines is a liar, and she got caught. --Me (talk) 21:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed singles chart

I fixed the errors in the chart and checked the singles with a list at www.allmusic.com, can I remove the cleanup tag? Also, do we really need a pop 100 and US digital 100 columns just because 2 out of his 30+ songs charted on there? I don't think so, I would remove them now but I want to see what everyone's thoughts are first. I think a simple note would suffice, no reason to add a new column just because of 2 songs. Faris b 04:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It's been about 2 weeks since I first posted. If no one opposes within the next 24 hours from the date of this message, I will be removing the pop 100 and US digital 100 columns for the reason that they don't belong. A footnote for them can be added but I think adding 2 columns just for the sake of 2 out of 30+ songs is too much. Faris b 07:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the pop and digital columns are they are unneccessary, please do not re-add them. The note at the bottom should suffice I believe, feel free to reword it if necessary. Faris b 02:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Allmusic.com isn't 100% accurate for singles; sometimes they leave some out, and most of the time, they have the songs listed out of chronological order. I have Top 40 Country charts from Billboard dating back to 1990, and I can confirm that yes, "Dream Walkin'" was indeed a single that peaked at #5, even though it's not listed on allmusic.com. I have added this song to the list of singles, and made the footnotes a little easier to read. I have also added the number of weeks for each of his #1's (some were missing before). 68.188.191.9 00:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Then may I ask, what do you suggest to use as a reference other than allmusic.com that is FREE? Faris b 03:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Billboard.com is less likely to leave out singles; however, they have the same problem as Allmusic.com does, in that they often list the songs out of order. Don't fret too much about chronological order; I'm 99.9% sure that the songs are all in correct order now. The only other thing I can think of would be to check back issues of Billboard magazine at your local library, but this would be rather time consuming. TenPoundHammer 20:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


Lawsuit

I suggest a section that deals with Michael McCloud's copyright infringement lawsuit against Keith, as reported in The Miami Herald on December 5, 2006 [1]. Noneus 00:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Radio & Records

Could someone please help me pinpoint the Radio & Records peaks for his songs? I know some were #2 on Billboard and #1 on R&R. I also know that Upstairs Downtown was #10 Billboard/#7 R&R. TenPoundHammer 03:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Support for Invasion of Iraq

He says here he never supported the war in Iraq. I honestly thought he did. Can someone look this up and verify it? Cheers. Fergananim 15:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

He was on The Colbert Report 6-18-07; performed a song and Stephen interviewed him. Stephen asked him about his boot up the ass song and said that when Toby wrote that, 90% of Americans supported the Prez (this was 2001). Now only 29% support him. Stephen, in his faux-pundit persona then asked if the American people then did not need a kick in the ass. Toby responded quite clearly that his song was a statement of support for the troops. He did not say, quite pointedly, that he supported the President. It seemed clear to me that he wanted to distance himself from the Prez and that his song was meant as an encouragement to the troops, not the President. 18:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

First, the Newsday "source" is nowhere to be found and can not be verified. Second, I did, however, find an interview that the AP conducted with Toby Keith, where he states that he never said that he did not support the war. The source for that article can be found at: http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/06/22/freetime/doc46705eee1e899938161840.txt

He doesn't say anything about supporting the war, one way or the other in that article, although he does seem to suggest that we won it....and since then, it's just so much skirmishing...which is more than a bit dismissive of the loss of maybe 700,000 Iraqi lives and 3500 American ones. But he doesn't say in the article whether he supports the war or not. Wikitoddia 07:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Just went to TobyKeith.com and if you click on "Toby" and then "Bio" it tells ya that the difference between he and Sean Penn is that he has talked to 50 Generals. I really don't know the significance of this. Sean Penn has been to Iraq. Keith says that if there was an invasion in Africa he would be there performing for the troops. I can't fault a guy for his support for the troops. It seems to me, and I have no concrete evidence, just an interpretation of the absence of any endorsement of the Pres, that he supports the troops. But it doesn't seem like he is really behind the Pres. I think this is where most of us fall. And it's the clear position to take. We all want these brave men and women to be safe, and many want them coming home, myself included. But really, if he thinks that, I don't know why he tries to place himself in contrast to Penn. I think Toby means well, but he has believed the administration's lies that supporting the troops can't be compatible with supporting anyone but a Republican. Again, this is just my reading of what he says, and perhaps more importantly, doesn't say. Anywho. Wikitoddia 23:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikitoddia, Keith has been to Iraq several times. Penn was there once. Keith went there, met and talked to troops from private to general. Penn went there and kissed up to Saddam's henchmen. Keith has been very clear that his position is to support the troops. According to him, he knows music is his job, not politics or strategy. THAT is why he tries to contrast himself from people like Penn, who thinks that because he is famous, his opinion is more informed.Niteshift36 (talk) 07:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Covell

The name is Covell, not Covel


--Kay Lynn (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Not according to his bio page at CMT.com [2], his bio at IMDB [3], his bio at AOL Music [4], his bio at about.com [5], his bio at musicianguide.com [6]. Do you have any sources showing the second L? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niteshift36 (talk • contribs) 22:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


Try CW CW

and try the New York Times. . . search for the story about the COVELL family wrongful death suit. NYT --Kay Lynn (talk) 22:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Country weekly also shows his name spelled Covel. Here is the specific link. [7] Even your own source agrees with me. And simply providing a link to the NYT isn't going to cut it as a source. Please be specific. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, my bad. Just checked NYT, and it's Covel. I had always seen it written Covell. So, don't blame me, blame my sources???! ha ha

--Kay Lynn (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It's all good. I was just going to give you a link to the lawsuit itself [8] and suggest that maybe the NYT just spelled it wrong. Probably not many country fans working there anyway. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


I have been a HUGE Big Dog Warrior megafan for six years and thought I knew everything there is about TK. . . Now I wonder what else I don't know! --Kay Lynn (talk) 17:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

One more problem I have. . . Isn't Toby's mom named Joan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KLynnS (talk • contribs) 19:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Toby's Mom's Name

I read about the lawsuit involving his dad's car accident that Toby's mother's name is Caroline, not Joan. But I only have one source at the moment so does any one else now for sure and have more than one source?

Toby's Mom's Name

I read about the lawsuit involving his dad's car accident that Toby's mother's name is Caroline, not Joan. But I only have one source at the moment so does any one else now for sure and have more than one source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilovetk (talk • contribs) 03:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Ilovetk. I read in counry weekly that Toby's Mom's name is Joan.

P.S. I ♥ TK, too! Me (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I found two more sources where Toby's mom's name is Caorlyn (wrong spelling, sorry) and only one other one where her name is Joan. All the other biographies never mention his parents names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.120.233 (talk) 22:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Toby's mother's name is Carolyn Joan Covel. She uses her middle name for some reason. Barbs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.25.102 (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Glenn Beck

From the July 30, 2008 interview with Glenn Beck

Keith: "I think the black people would say he don't talk, act, or carry himself as a black person."

Beck: "What does that even mean?"

Keith: "Well, I don't know what that means, but I think that that's what they would say. Even though the black society would pull for him, I still think that they think in the back of their mind that the only reason he is in is because he talks, acts, and carries himself as a Caucasian."

Sources:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hC4GdFOYQ

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080805/cm_thenation/15342063

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/lynching-advocate-toby-ke_b_116995.html

That isn't what the original editor put in. He editorialized. Second, this doesn't show racism at all. I've personally heard a lot of black friends and co-workers say that Obama acts "white". Third, that editorial piece from Huffington is ridiculous muck-raking. If you watch the entire video, there are far more white crminals shown, in fact the subject of the pursuit in the the video is a white serial killer. Nothing in the song or video specifies that only certain criminals should be hung. The line in question say "grandpappy told my pappy back in my day..." This was sung by Willie Nelson who plays Keiths father in the video. That is Nelson making a historical statement of what happened 3 generations ago. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I put the quote in without any editorializing at all. Just this factual statement:

In a July 30, 2008 radio interview with Glen Beck, Keith said of Barack Obama, "I think the black people would say he don't talk, act, or carry himself as a black person."

The source is the Glen Beck radio show itself. I included the links above so you can hear the exact quote yourself and read a portion of the transcript. I have not editorialized at all, and the quote shouldn't be taken out of the article by people who didn't seem to even take the time to read this, let alone bother to respond. I am not vandalizing.

Please assume good faith and do not attack other editors. The links you have provided only go to other Wikipedia article pages, which do not provide a reference to the specific interview that to which you are referring.--Startstop123 (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the information again. There still are no sources attached to it in the article and there is nothing about it that says it is notable. Jons63 (talk) 08:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

First, 2 of the 3 items you linked to are op-ed pieces by the same writer. This is the same writer who wrote another op-ed piece a few days ago, trying to twist the lyrics to claim Keith was advocating lynching blacks. Aside from the fact that the author writes for publications that are questionable in their neutrality, these are simply his opinion and you're using his opinion to support his own opinion. When the author recounts the interview on Beck, he editorializes by adding things like "drawled" or describing Beck as surprised. In this case, it can be argued that the author is POV pushing. My opinion (yes, I am allowed to have one) is that the author is trying to manufacture a controversy. The song and video he is focusing on came out in 2003. Where was he for the past 5 years? Instead, he waits for 5 years, until a week or so before a movie based on the song is about to come out, then decides to make it an issue. Please tell me that you can at least see why that would give the possible appearence of this being self-serving for the author? Niteshift36 (talk) 09:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The Glenn Beck show website is a good reference for the quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.152.161 (talk) 00:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not just a matter of the source. Read below. This article falls under WP:BLP and there is a question of WP:Undue here. That's what we are discussing. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

This is an article about a living person. For such a controversial claim, it is important that only the most reliable sources are used and that it is information that has received significant reputable coverage. It does not appear that either criteria is being met, so we should exclude the claim until such a time as significant coverage can be established in highly reliable sources. Vassyana (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite

Ugh, why are almost all the country music articles crap? This article has a lousy intro (see WP:LEAD), not enough info about his career (half of the freaking page is about the Natalie Maines feud). Am I the only Wikipedian who gives a rip about the country music articles?! Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 21:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  • There, done. That is what an intro should look like. Am I the only one who can do this kind of stuff for country music articles? Apparently! Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 01:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ethan Hawke and Kris Kristofferson

This clearly belongs in the article. It was reported in a well-known magazine and on countless websites. And Kristofferson has not denied it, he said he doesn't remember it (which probably means he doesn't want to talk about it).

Regardless of whether the story itself is true or not, the fact that the story was printed and Keith's reaction to that story should be mentioned.

By the way, if you don't believe it, consider this, in the original Rolling Stone article Toby Keith is not mentioned once, yet he took it upon himself to defend the unnamed "country singer" in the article and Kristofferson clearly mentioned Keith by name when discussing the article. If that doesn't prove it, what does? BillyJack193 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC).

  • Back up........there are several issues here. First, it doesn't matter how many websites have mentioned it. Most won't count as reliable sources. Second, the Huffington Post is questionable in terms of neutrality. Third, Hawkes article says a singer. Does Hawke say Keith? Why wouldn't Hawke say Keith? Fourth, while YOU might consider Kristofferson saying that he doesn't recall it to mean that he just doesn't want to talk about it, your interpretation (or mine) is meaningless. Until someone wants to say it happened and be specific as to who, it is a rumor. Rumors are not allowed in wp:BLP articles. "Regardless of whethere it is true or not" shouldn't even be spoken in a discussion about a BLP article. I think we need a few more opinions from established editors before this gets entered. Maybe even a trip to the BLP noticeboard. But we should avoid the 3R situation that is going to occur. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Here's the facts: Ethan Hawke wrote an article in Rolling Stone about a conflict between Kris Kristofferson and a country singer who had a monster hit about "bombing our enemies back into the stone age". Toby Keith reacted as if he himself had been attacked and Kristofferson mentioned Keith distinctly in his statement regarding the article. The fact that the article was written and his reaction to it deserve inclusion even if the article itself is 100% BS. BillyJack193 (talk)
  • Perhaps you should read the wp:BLP policy. The two people involved are not confirming the article. That makes it rumor at this point. If one of them decides to confirm it, then it isn't rumor anymore. But I see you've chosen to restore the information without waiting for any discussion (in the process making your 3rd revision of the same info in 24 hours). I'm willing to hear what some others have to say. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Ethan Hawke was allegedly present when it took place. Furthermore, Keith himself confirmed it, albeit unintentionally, by stepping up to defend and personify the unnamed singer, acting as if Hawke had attacked him directly. Because no singer was mentioned in the article, Keith's comments where he places himself as the victim only prove the article to be the truth. By the way, the policy is "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". And although the Huffington Post may or may not be a reliable source, the story was originally published in Rolling Stone, a well-respected magazine with over 40 years under their belt.BillyJack193 (talk) 00:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • That doesn't prove the article is true. It shows that Hawke was talking about Keith, not that the confrontation between Keith and Kristofferson ever took place. Kristofferson says he doesn't remember a confrontation. Keith says it did't happen. Don't you think either of those would be more important? Look, I know you are anti-war and I guess you missed that Keith says he never supported the Iraq war. But if you are so concerned about "truth", why don't you work in a mention of how Kristofferson didn't "kill a man then cash his paycheck" either? Kristofferson was a helicopter pilot who was stationed in Germany in the 60's. He was never in combat either, which would make a lot of his tirade bullshit. Why would Kristofferson rant about how Keith never killed anyone in combat as some sort of qualification when he never did it himself? What sense does that make? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP has a different set of standards for articles because these are articles about LIVING PEOPLE. Wikipedia holds BLP articles to a higher standard because they don't want to get sued for libel. Stop trying to apply wp:RS and WP:Verifiability without reading the standards SPECIFIC to BLP articles. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Again (and I agree with much of what you said regarding the alleged incident) Keith's reaction to Ethan Hawke's article alone makes it worthy of inclusion here. BillyJack193 (talk) 00:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • You spend all this time talking about a conversation that both participants aren't saying happened, then add one line about Keiths reaction and try to pass it off as balanced and relevant? Please....... How about what Cooper himself had to say during his in person confrontation between him and Keith:

Keith: "Do you think Ethan Hawke knows me?"

Cooper: "No."

TK: "Do you think Ethan Hawke knows even one of my songs?"

PC: "I doubt it." [9]

Cooper admits that Kristofferson says he doesn't recall the incident and that Willie Nelson is saying it didn't even happen. Keith says it didn't happen. Nelson says it didn't happen. Kristofferson says he doesn't remember having any confrontation. Hawke says it did (but didn't name Keith, despite naming the rest of the people in his article) and a third party (Cooper) just repeats someone elses claim. But you can't see why it doesn't meet the more stringent standards of WP:BLP? Have you even bothered to read BLP yet?

How about this quote from Kristofferson, which was published by Cooper: "I have no memory of talking so tough to anyone at Willie's birthday party - least of all to Toby Keith... for whom I have nothing but admiration and respect. Kristofferson goes on to show Hawke said untrue things about him: "And, contrary to what the college classmate said (to Hawke), I never was president of any class in college or on the debating team, writing club or played baseball. I hated politics and never ran for anything." [10]

Cooper again, in his own column: "But what this also means is that Kris is denying that the reported exchange with Toby took place. Having read the Rolling Stone article, it seems impossible that such an incident could happen and be forgotten."

"Over the weekend, as I worked in Las Vegas covering the Academy of Country Music Awards, people who were at Madison Square Garden that night back in 2003 said that nothing of this nature occurred. Rolling Stone has a reputation for thorough fact-checking, yet Toby's publicist said that no one in his camp was contacted. The publicist also said that Toby was shocked by the story, and that Toby and Kris did not even meet that night."

Toby and Kris have both attracted plenty of controversy over the years, and neither has run or hidden when the controversy occurred. Both men have been accused of many things, but lying is not one of those things. And both men are saying that this thing did not happen." [11]

And still, you can't figure out why it doesn't meet BLP standards. Even the guy who put Keiths name to the story is backing off his claim......but you want to put it in the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I don't care if you take the details of incident out. Put something such as this, "Actor Ethan Hawke wrote in a Rolling Stone article about an alleged confrontation between Kris Kristofferson and an unnamed country singer, whom many believe to be Toby Keith. Although the story is unverified at this time, and Keith was not mentioned in the article, he reacted to Hawke's story angrily, calling it a "fictitious fucking lie....."

I don't see the problem with that. It mentions Hawke's article without going into details about the alleged incident, yet is very clear on Toby Keith's reaction to the article. What's your opinion? BillyJack193 (talk) 11:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Maybe you don't remember the dust-up about the allegations of an affair involving John Edwards. It was initially carried by the Star. WP wouldn't allow it because it wasn't reliable. Nor was the simple repeating of the Stars allegation by reputable news sources. When reputable sources finally made the allegation themselves, it was allowed. It was true all along, but not allowed until a certain point. Hawke claims he was there but doesn't name Keith. Another writer, who wasn't there, named Keith. That writer has since backed off of it. Keith says it didn't happen. Nelson says it didn't happen. Kristofferson says it didn't happen. Other people who were there say it didn't happen. So what you have, when it is all said and done, is one person making a claim that numerous others dispute. Aside from being little more than rumor, it may be a case of wp:recentism. BTW, you misrepresented Kristofferson's denial. You made it sound like he just said "I don't remember that" and walked off. He was very specific. He said he didn't remember talking to anyone like that "least of all to Toby Keith... for whom I have nothing but admiration and respect". Have you bothered to read WP:BLP yet? Niteshift36 (talk) 11:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, I read it. I understand and agree with much of what you said, but I think a mention of the article (without going into details) and the account of Toby Keith's reaction to it is definetly appropriate. However, you probably won't agree with that and we could go back and forth on this until Hell freezes over. What we really need is a third opinion.BillyJack193 (talk) 11:50, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I've suggested that all along.........before you violated the 3R. And we've had an established editor give his opinion when he removed the info. Feel free to ask the BLP noticeboard. Niteshift36 (talk) 11:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Third opinions

Keith made an anti-left remark, and Kristofferson took offense? This very likely happened, but it's hardly more notable than what color boots Keith wore today. While it happened in 2003, the "story" just came out and is still too recent. With Keith denying it, and Kristofferson feigning memory loss, it is obvious the only people interested in stirring this into an issue are the uninvolved 3rd and 4th parties. My suggestion: leave it out of the article, but leave mention of it here on the talk page and wait to see what develops (if anything). Maybe it will blossom into a Dixie Chick-sized scandal. If you are going to argue only whether this content meets WP:BLP standards, I would have to side with Niteshift36 and say no. Not because of source reliability or verifiability, but because of the additional requirement specific only to BLPs: We need to get it right. With all the denial, finger pointing and "I don't remember..." going around at this stage, a Wikipedia editor simply cannot determine with 100% certainty what transpired, so we don't mention any of it. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I'd like to clarify something. Kristofferson isn't just giving the "I don't remember" line. He is stating he doesn't remember talking to anyone like that, then points out "least of all to Toby Keith, for whom I have nothing but admiration and respect." That doesn't sound like feigning memory loss. Kristofferson made the effort to write Cooper and clear that up. It's not like he mumbled "I don't remember" while walking away. Nelson also says it didn't happen, as do other sources Cooper contacted and Cooper has backed off the claim. In fact, the sole person saying it did happen it Hawke, who has a vested interest in drawing attention to the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No clarification needed here: I've read each version of Kristofferson's multiple "clear that up" letters. Let me refer back to the Dixie Chick analogy I mentioned earlier. When Maines was asked her about her "FUTK" T-shirt, she denied the obvious. When the media hounds kept asking her, her spokespeople denied the obvious. Sometimes you say your piece (or wear your shirt), then put it behind you. Of course you are entitled to your opinion that Kristofferson is being sincere in his denials, but I've seen it all before. I'm a bit jaded, I guess. Only K & K can say it didn't happen -- everyone else, Nelson included, can only say they didn't see it happen. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree with Xenophrenic, we must be cautious with BLP articles and this is not an essential piece of info and i don't see the project being damaged due to its loss whereas it's inclusion and potential for libel may be damaging. --neon white talk 19:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Thank you for offering your opinion on this. I will respect your descision. BillyJack193 (talk) 14:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Note - The request for third opinion has been removed from WP:3o, now that one has been given. ƒingersonRoids 16:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Education missing

Someone who knows where TK graduated from high school (or college?) please add it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.76.27 (talk) 11:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Red White and Blue duplication

The controversy over Red White and Blue and ensuing feud with the Dixie Chicks is covered both on this page, and in the page for Red White and Blue. IMHO, the text on this page should be briefer. Clicking thru to the Red White and Blue page felt like I was reading all the same info all over again, instead of reading a new article with more info. 76.191.174.198 (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

  • This is significant to both articles. Involving the son as much as it did, it should be in that article and, as an event that was as public as it ended up being, it should be in his bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:30, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

1993 Mercury Triple Play Tour

As reported on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brannen, Toby Keith, Shania Twain and John Brannen toured for Mercury Record on the "Triple Play" tour. If someone more knowledgeable with editing wikis would please include this info it would make for a more complete article. I don't feel qualified, and as well, I was present at quite a few of the gigs as a guest of their monitor sound engineer Paul Parker. I hope I have not over-stepped my bounds by editing the talk page. 12.36.232.80 (talk) 10:06, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

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"Should Have Been A Cowboy" most played Country song of 1990's??

There doesn't seem to be a source for this claim and it sounds pretty unbelievable that it could possibly have been played more that "How Do I Live" by LeAnn Rimes, which is listed as the 4th most successful song of all time by Billboard. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 00:05, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit Request

The Songwriters Hall of Fame inducted Toby Keith two years ago and the Academy of Country Music gave him the Poet's Award this year – exceedingly high songwriting honors amidst a career chock full of them. And with good reason. The list of writer-artists in any genre who have achieved or exceeded the collective airplay Keith has amassed is quite short. Artistic and commercial achievements aren't the reasons he writes, however. Neither are awards. No, songwriting isn't something Toby Keith does. Songwriting is who he is.


Sure, there are songwriting appointments and a few close collaborators who join him on the road when an album's coming together. But there's also an unending torrent of lyrics and song titles being stored on his cell phone. Ideas and melodies are surfacing in everyday conversation, rising up from an old memory or jumping out during a round of golf. In fact, the only time Toby Keith turns off his songwriting is when he's asleep or incapacitated – and even then a song might result. (That story comes later.) And so it is that throughout his career he's written songs for reasons that have nothing to do with advancing his career. He calls them bus songs.


"As long as I've been writing, there's always been that one you had some fun with, but knew it wasn't for anything else," he explains. "You're sitting around, somebody's got a little groove going and somebody says something funny or risqué off the cuff. And the song just peels out pretty quick. Everybody's laughing and you're really having more fun writing than the song is good."


Don't tell that to Keith's fans. Bus songs have become among the most beloved tunes in his catalog precisely for that spontaneity and humor. That affection stretches back to an appearance on the syndicated Bob & Tom radio show. "They asked if we ever write songs we don't want to record," Keith says. "Either that time or the next time on the show, we sang a song called 'Star Kissed' and 'Weed With Willie.' They put it up on their website and a few days later called us back to say it was one of the most downloaded things they'd ever had on their site."


That was just the beginning. "We started doing those songs in concert and it just grew from there. They got no radio airplay, but everywhere we sang them, the crowd had already found 'em." Soon, Keith was adding a bus song to his albums as a "curveball," further cementing their place in his canon. All the while, new bus songs were being written.


"There's plenty we can't even put on a record at all – so bad you can't hardly play them anywhere," Keith admits. "Eventually, though, you had enough that don't go too far and people can laugh at. I had them all piled up and somebody asked if I'd ever thought of putting all the bus songs out as one album. I had 'Shitty Golfer' and 'Wacky Tobaccy' that I hadn't done anything with, so I was able to add a couple new ones."


"Shitty Golfer" originated at Keith's hometown golf club as he was debating the merits of tournament handicaps with his golf pro. "I was explaining to him that I thought the two-man system was unfair and some guy in the club popped off, 'Hey, do you need a cry towel? Just go get in the hole.' He was drunk, of course. I asked him if he was a good golfer and he said, 'I'm a scratch.' So I asked if he was on TV and he said he wasn't. So I told him, 'The good golfers get on TV, so you're a shitty golfer like the rest of us.' Then I went home and wrote the song because I am a shitty golfer. We all are ... unless we're on TV. I just wrote it because it needed to be written." And not, clearly, with any aspirations of radio airplay.


Likewise, "Wacky Tobaccy" sprung from a random conversation. "There's an old dude I know who comes out to the race track a lot and he said that phrase one night," Toby says. "I hadn't heard that term in years, but I remember my dad saying it. There are so many new cool words for weed that somewhere along the way that became a real throwback. But what a slogan. Somebody needed to write that, so I thought about how my dad might have used it, and that's the first verse. Then we rhymed up all the things we've heard it called and I thought, there's a good bus song."


Several bus songs were products of Keith's frequent USO Tours including "Call A Marine" and "Runnin' Block." "When you land a helicopter in the desert and you're sitting around a forward operating base with 30 soldiers for an hour, I'm not under the belief that every single one is a country music fan, or a Toby fan," he says. "But it is a bunch of guys and I'm thinking to myself, 'Well, offer them something.' So I ask if they've ever been somebody's wingman, but you get set up with a bad date? His wasn't so bad but yours weighed 300 pounds?


"I know that stuff may not be socially acceptable, but I don't care. It's not for that. It served a purpose and got a bunch of guys in the middle of a desert high-fiving each other. We're just eating lunch, giving them a 30-minute smile, taking pictures, handing over their USO gift and then jumping on the chopper to the next one."


Keith's dismissal of convention aside, several songs offer insight into how he'll let the pressure off when things go too far. For instance, "Brand New Bow." "I heard someone ask my dad what he got his wife for Valentine's Day and he said, 'I tied a brand new bow around the same old thing.' And I said, 'I'm writing that, no question.' But I thought it was funny to make the guy in the song more of a dumbass. He's telling her happy birthday while drunk as a sort of booty call."


Likewise, "Get Out Of My Car," which was Bobby Pinson's idea. "This guy is pretty hardcore after what he wants, all the way to the very end when he gets out of his clothes and she gets out of the car," Keith says. "You've got to make that turn where it isn't just a landslide. You have to be able to laugh at yourself as much as anybody else."


"The Critic" is probably the collection's most pointed song. And yes, Keith had someone in mind. "She gave me an 'F' on my first album and on this Triple Play tour I was on. Then I came out with four No. 1s and sold a million records and no one went back to tell her she was a shitty teacher with her grading. Another guy got on me in a show review, but never talked about my music. He couldn't find a parking space, the lights were too bright and it was just, 'You suck.' So I figured I'd write about it. After the song came out I was doing an interview with this one guy and he kept coming back to that song, so I asked if it got under his skin. He said it had and I replied, 'Now you know how we feel.'"


Fittingly, the bus song that started it all is also the one with the best backstory. Epic, even. And it simply can't be retold too many times. "I had the night off in Vegas and Charles Barkley, who's a friend of mine, was having a birthday party at the Rum Jungle at midnight," Keith says. "When he invited me he was like, 'You'll be there, right? Don't lie to me!' I promised him I'd be there. About 4pm, someone told us Willie was playing the Hacienda at eight. We went to the show and Willie brought me up to do a couple songs. As I was walking off he said don't go anywhere, he wanted to holler at me on the bus.


"I went out there, he played me a song or two and asked to hear one I'd written with Scotty Emerick, and so we played that. Then he broke out a joint. Now, I'll smoke it, but it's never been my high. I'm never in smoking shape and really can't handle my high very good. And when you're dealing with Willie's stuff, you've got probably the best available to anybody. You know what you're dealing with. So I didn't smoke very much, but boy, I got shut in. I got off that bus and had everything wrong with me you can get. I just told my folks, 'Take me straight to my room.' So on Saturday night in Vegas I laid down on my bed, alone in my room and missed everything.


"Got up the next morning and I had about 30 messages on my phone from everybody," Toby continues. "'Charles wanted to know where you were. What happened? What's going on?' Scotty called and I told him the story. 'Well, I got on Willie's bus and I'll tell you what, I'll never smoke weed with Willie again.'


"'By the way,' I said. 'We ought to write that.' We punched it up a little, but the song gets to the same conclusion as the real thing."


That, not coincidentally, is also how The Bus Songs got its title. Toby explains: "Someone asked if I was going to do a cut on 'Weed With Willie,' and I said, 'No, we can't cut it. That's just one you sing on the bus with your friends after a show. It's a bus song.'"


Well "Weed With Willie" ended up being much more, and The Bus Songs are now a significant if lighthearted insight into exactly who Toby Keith is – a songwriter for all occasions. "We've probably got 35 or 40 of these things and some of them are offensive in every way," he says. "But they're poems and this is America, so we're allowed to do that. We love to laugh and have a great time, so these songs just happen naturally. And as long as people are grinning and enjoying themselves over a beer, then that's okay." JusticeSlone (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

RfC about "country" in lede

As with the ongoing RfCs at Talk:Blake Shelton and Talk:Tim McGraw, per MOS:BLP the genre should be included in the lede on a case-by-case basis, so should "country singer-songwriter" be mention in the lede here? On a side note, I think that the provision of MOS:BLP is sort of unnecessary, but there is a reason why I did not WP:BOLDly add it. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 22:19, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

  • Yes (Summoned by bot). L3X1 (distænt write) 01:59, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
  • (Summoned by bot) Support. It's a landslide at Shelton and McGraw and there's no reason to think, if more people show up, this will be different. Hopefully these are establishing precedent so people can just go ahead and make this obvious, uncontroversial change. CityOfSilver 04:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. Clearly a country artist. JDDJS (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Absolutely Toby Keith is a country music performer DocumentError (talk) 01:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

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Presidential Award

“ Keith accepted his award just one week after insurrectionists stormed the United States Capitol and on the same day Donald Trump was impeached for the second time.[57][58]” What is the point of this association of Toby’s award with the political demonstrations that went on a week before and the second failed impeachment? Another example of why I don’t contribute a dime to Wikipedia, they allow Leftists to slander and disparage good people as long as Leftist media citations are used to “prove” their point. Toby’s “crime” seems to be his patriotism. 2603:8000:1541:EB9:F9DD:FC19:7969:E9D5 (talk) 03:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC) Dr. Nancy

I agree. It is absolutely despicable that good, hard-working fascists can't even attempt a violent coup these days without everyone getting all snitty about it.24.182.239.226 (talk) 07:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Toby's Mom's Name

I read about the lawsuit involving his dad's car accident that Toby's mother's name is Caroline, not Joan. But I only have one source at the moment so does any one else now for sure and have more than one source?

Hi

Hey toby how much would an autograph cost on a fat hit me with an answer at jakobinichols2021@gmail.com 2601:245:0:F810:940B:8C43:610D:740D (talk) 01:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Howoldaretobykeith? 174.242.208.252 (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Death

Upon checking his Facebook and website, he was confirmed to have diednon February 5, 2024 of stomach cancer. This according to a press release on the website for Toby Titanic4151912 (talk) 08:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

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