Talk:Timeline of Art Nouveau

General principles for the article

I followed these ones:

• Not more that 2 works per column in a given year,
• Secession and Jugenstil are joined into one column as these movements are close to each other: Vienna Secession was named after Munich Secession that is referred to Jugendstil; one of Vienna Secession founders, Joseph Maria Olbrich later moved to Darmstadt Artists' Colony that is also referred to Jugendstil,
• Works that have their own page in Wikipedia are in priority. Thus works of ceramics and furntiture are difficult to list as they usually do not have even a name, let alone their own Wikipedia pages,
• Works are listed according to the date of their completion/publication (e.g. the poster for Gismonda was published on 1 January 1895; it evidentally was created in 1894 but is listed in the 1895 row),
• Works are listed with What-by whom-where template, except for architects' own houses,
• Variety in images is preferred. Though some Jewellery or Furniture are less prominent than other works of the same year, their images are featured for the article to feature different genres of art, not only most prominent ones. If works of an artist are already featured in images, other artists are preferred, except for some works of UNESCO World Heritage List. Orientation of pictures is chosen to fit the given size of a cell (neither to lenghen a narrow row nor to leave empty space in case of long and narrow images), thus images' width is flexible,
• See also feature links to pages that were not linked in the table before. Please do not add links to works, events, movements, etc. that already are in the table.

Improver 03 04 (talk) 14:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Also not to overload the page with names of countries yet to provide them when necessary the following rules were used:

• Names of countries and places are given as they were at the referred year, e.g. Darmstadt, German Empire (except Helsinki that didn't change its names, but now Helsinki in Finnish is wider used that Helsingfors in Swedish)
• For capitals of countries (e.g. Paris, Moscow, Vienna) and major well-known cities (e.g. Milan, Glasgow, Porto, Rotterdam) countries are not mentioned
• Countries are mentioned for less-known places (e.g. Gödöllő, Kingdom of Hungary) or places that changed their sovereignity (e.g. Straßburg, German Empire, here - to underscore why local works belong to Judengstil rather that to Art Nouveau of France)
• If the name and the sovereignity of the place were substantionally changed, new name and country are additionally mentioned (e.g. Pozsony (now Bratislava) or Marosvásárhely (now Târgu Mureș, Romania))
• As for Kilmacolm, it is referred to Scotland rather that British Empire (that is shorter and gives proper reference)

Another note whether to display different works in the single cell or to split them into different ones. The general principle is as follows:

• If works/events are made/happened in a single city and by single person each, they could be displayed in one cell,
• Otherwise it is worth displaying in different cells to avoid cofusion. Improver 03 04 (talk) 10:09, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Notable works not included in the article

I failed to find reliable sources for completion dates for the following works:

• Cyclamen (with coup de fouet or whiplash motif) by Hermann Obrist is attributed to either 1892 or 1895 or 1896
• Dancer with a Scarf by Agathon Léonard is attributed to 1898, 1899 or 1900
• The Lighthouse, Glasgow or Glasgow Herald Building is also attributed to different ages

I also failed to find the founding date for Talashkino Art Colony even in sources in Russian.

There also are some notable works that were completed long after the movement has ended or not completed at all:

• Sagrada Família - still in construction, incepted before 1887
• Hospital de Sant Pau - finished in 1930
• House for an Art Lover - constructed in 1996
• The Artist's Cottage project - constructed in 1995

Improver 03 04 (talk) 13:42, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Casa Vicens also should be noted. In many Wikipedia articles in is decraled to be completed in 1888 while its official website (the most authoritive source I managed to find) claims it to be completed in 1885. Thus it is subject to debate whether to include this UNESCO World Heritage monument and thus make the timespan of the movement even wider or not (because of the reason stipulated above). Improver 03 04 (talk) 07:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Art Nouveau of Belgium and France

The column is named Art Nouveau of Belgium and France rather than Art Nouveau in Belgium and France as several works of Belgian and French masters outside these countries are listed there.

Nevertheless, works of foreigners Alphonse Mucha, Eugène Grasset, and Theophile-Alexandre Steinlen are listed in this very column as their work represents Art Nouveau of the country where they lived and worked (i.e. France), not where they were from. That said, Mucha works after returning to his homeland are listed in Secession and Jugendstil columns (another reason for that is that they were created in cooperation with local masters). Improver 03 04 (talk) 13:41, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Villa Fallet

As Villa Fallet was deliberately (yet without any citations) deleted from the Art Nouveau article, I added some reliable sources (e.g. pages of both Art Nouveau Associations in the world) supporting the fact that the Villa is an Art Nouveau building.

The overall discussion on this building happens at Talk:Art_Nouveau#Villa_Fallet_of_Charles-Édouard_Jeannere Improver 03 04 (talk) 07:53, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Good work

You did a great job putting together all this information, in a useful format. Ir's well-organized, comprehensive and informative. My only complaint concerns the citations; I wish you had citations to a wider variety of sources. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 09:54, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for appreciation. I also wish I had a wider variety of sources for citations, but it really is a challnge. As you have already started the discussion about that at Talk:Art Nouveau page, I would better comment there.

All in all, for this article it was the dilemma: what to cite: nothing or everything? For the speed of ouptut, I decided to cite only the objects that have different dates of completion throughout Wikipedia and objects that could be considered not Art Nouveau (like Villa Fallet, described above why). Most objects have their own Wikipedia pages and I didn't see a substantial violation to not cite anything for them. Improver 03 04 (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think you should add 14th Secession Exhibition dedicated to Beethoven (1902), it is by far most successful and famous of all exhibitions they held. Thank you for your hard work on this article. Aocdnw (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. Why me, not us, you have the same editorial rights here :) I wouldn't add it because its significance in not presented in Wikipedia now. But it featured different artists not featured here before so I decided to add it. Improver 03 04 (talk) 02:58, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Date of the Hotel Tassel

I'm not sure where the Patrimoine site in Brussels got the information that Hotel Tassel was built in 1894. The Encyclopedia Britannica on line, the Larousse Encyclopedia on line, the Taschen dictionary of Modern Architecture, and the Oudin Dictionary of Architecture all give the dates of the Hotel Tassel as 1892-3 or 1893. The page on the site of the UNESCO World Heritage Center on the Hotel Tassel also gives the date of 1893. The Sembach book cited in the article on Art Nouveau notes that both the Hankar house and Hotel Tassel were completed at the same time, in 1893. This should probably be fixed. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 17:58, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

I see that the citation to the Brussels inventory of architectural patrimony also gives the date as 1893, not 1894. SiefkinDR (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Concerning your first sentence: at the page [2] it is written "Une fois la maison terminée, en 1894, Horta travailla encore quelques années pour Tassel à des projets de mobilier" that in Engish means "Once the house was finished, in 1894, Horta worked for a few more years for Tassel on furniture projects". But anyway I agree that most sources cite 1892-3 as the dates, so I added them.

When it comes to your edits of the page, please note that there are certain rules how this page is built, so if you opt to edit it, please follow them and do your edits carefully. What I exactly mean:

• You moved the text about Hotel Tassel from 1894 to 1893 but left its picture at the 1894 row that has become irrelevant with the edit,
• UNESCO World Heritage sites are marked with asterisk. You lost it with the edit,
• Only those buildings are italicized that are featured in the "Image" column (with your edit both Hankar and Tassel houses were italicized),
• You deleted the mentioning of Horta house and atelier with no comment on it. It is an important building (also a UNESCO World Heritage) and thus should not be deleted - only moved to another row if another date is found more reasonable. Here you again left picture unchanged while deleting the text from the corresponding cell of the row,
• And even if you would transfer both the text and the picture of Horta house and atelier, you still left the empty cell in the table. If you pay attention, when there are 2 rows for a given year for a given movement, they both are not empty. Otherwise rowspan="2" is used.

Summarizing that, I appreciate you brought the more widespread date but unfortunately your edits created more disorder that help.

As for works with different dates in different sources, you are welcome to suggest the best dates for those ones that are listed at Talk:Timeline of Art Nouveau#Notable works not included in the article. But please, do it carefully so that additional edits won't be needed after that. Improver 03 04 (talk) 19:35, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I also forgot to mention that you left "Paul Hankar house and Hotel Tassel by Victor Horta completed in Brussels" at the page rather than "...were completed...". Improver 03 04 (talk) 06:43, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• La Primavera Galileo Chini.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:22, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Crystal Palace in Petropolis

Hi Improver 03 04,

Greenhouse prebuilt by the Société Anonyme de Saint-Sauveur in Arras suburb, France, for Gaston, Count of Eu as a gift to his wife Princess Isabel; mounted and inaugurated in Brazil in 1884. Nice example of early Art Nouveau. See Portuguese wk, page in Commons.
http://www.compuland.com.br/Petropolis/petrcryi.html : "... on April 1st, 1888, [Princess Isabel] handed out letters freeing 103 slaves, in a ceremony which happened in Crystal Palace."

Timeline of Art Nouveau good page, ty.

109.209.56.27 (talk) 07:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)