Talk:Thunderstorm/Archive 2

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Pictures

Really nice article, April. If I might suggest a picture or two, for someone who knows how to put them in (I'm at the end of a workday, else I might do it myself). All are public domain:

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/iwx/wxpics/clouds_sun/BerryLightning2.jpg

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/iwx/wxpics/clouds_sun/Berryshelf.jpg (this is a shelf cloud, 78 mph winds in the storm)

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/wea00606.htm (Boston, 1967)

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/nssl/nssl0013.htm

Just a few among many at the noaa site. Hmm, noticed that a couple of them are shown, and others aren't.. No clue why. rgamble

its sorta boring :( zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* The two pictures above that are still available are illustrations of lightning, which might not be the best thunderstorm pictures. -- Beland 22:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Diagrams

It would be very helpful if there were some diagrams illustrating the airflow in each of the three different types of thunderstorm. -- Beland 22:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems to have been done - feel free to re-add {{reqdiagram}} if you think it needs more. SeventyThree(Talk) 00:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Expansion request: Formation

How do weather fronts and tropical cyclones give rise to thunderstorms, structurally speaking? This is hinted at but not well explained. -- Beland 03:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thunderstorms are created in both scenarios because warm air is forced to rise into cooler air in the upper-levels, so it condenses into cumulonimbus. -- IRP (talk) 02:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
You can have warm moist (even dry air can lead to dry thunderstorms) air at the surface and cooler air in the mid and upper-levels (Sometime there can be a cap/inversion which is a layer of warmer air then the air below and above it which can hold off storms until heating on the surface is at it's peak or it can stop storms from forming) but you also need a trigger (which is always needed) such as a low pressure trough, low pressure system or a cold front. Bidgee (talk) 02:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
This does not explain why electricity is generated. I suspect it is a Triboelectric effect but I'd like confirmation of this. Biscuittin (talk) 10:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Or Electrostatic induction. Biscuittin (talk) 10:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Sources

There's quite a lot of unverified facts in here, so I've added an unreferenced tag. Annihilatenow 11:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Squall

Related but distinct. Keep Squall separate. --Kbh3rdtalk 18:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree that these two are related but Squall should remain a discrete page. Right now Squall isn't very extensive, but it has serious potential for a large article. At that point, it will be obvious it doesn't need to be totally merged into Thunderstorm. JLamb 04:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If the squall is integrated into the thunderstorm article, the other types of thunderstorms have to be too. There is already an article on the supercell. So either you explain every type of thunderstorms in one article, which could be huge, OR you leave separate article like now. Pierre cb 11:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

GA Nomination

I am placing the GA nomination of this article on hold for 7 days for some rewriting of the introduction to better conform with WP:LEAD. I would recomend splitting off some of the information about thunderstorm activity in specific locations into a new section and possible trim some of the U.S. centric stuff. Wikipedia is a worldwide not just American encyclopedia. Otherwise it looks good. The referencing is a little light-specific facts and assertions should have in-line citations-but not enough to fail the article. Eluchil404 23:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I just rewrote the lead somewhat and took out the US-centric stuff. CrazyC83 02:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick responce. I am now passing the article through to GA as it looks to meet all the criteria. Eluchil404 23:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

The Good Article review for this article has ended, and counting the person who first passed it, it was one person for being a GA, and three opposed, therefore, I have delisted this article. Main concern was an overall lack of broadness, though especially in the thunderstorm detection section. Review archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 7 Homestarmy 18:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


Paragraph requires a rewrite

" * Single cell storms form when the atmosphere is not strong enought, but there is little or no wind shear, meaning precipitation falls back down through the updraft that led to it, cooling it and eventually killing it. These storms are short lived, and last for less than an hour after becoming strong enough to produce lightning. Days with suitable weather conditions often see the repeated forming and dissipation of such storms, leading them to be known as "pulse" storms.[4]" Shorvath 05:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Discrepancy

This article says: "Cloud to cloud lightning is rarely seen and is when a bolt of lightning arches from one cloud to another."

The lightning article says: "Cloud-to-cloud Intracloud lightning is the most common type of lightning..."

One is wrong, probably the former.

Watching all the flashing that goes on in a distant storm cloud makes it easy to believe that intra-cloud (within the same cloud) lightning is very common. However, it ain't what we think that's important. This page at NASA states that intra-cloud lightning is the most common. The discrepancies probably arise from the ease with which the opposing suffixes intra- and inter- are confused. --Kbh3rdtalk 21:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Severe thunderstorm

It says in the article that "Severe thunderstorms can occur from any type of thunderstorm, however multicell and squall lines represent the most common forms." Also it describe how powerful a supercell is, and "In fact, most tornadoes occur from this kind of thunderstorm." So maybe supercell should be included in "severe thunderstorm"? --Natasha2006 18:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

nice source on particle acceleration in thunderstorms

I really have no understanding of this, but I found a reliable source on particle acceleration in thunderstorms. http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2947v1

I hope it will be of some value Teardrop onthefire 12:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am going to argue against this on principle. An atmospheric discharge is a massive broadband, full spectrum, EM transmission. —Will research for food (talk) 12:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Ball Lightning

The article states that Ball Lightning appears in the shape of a 20-200 cm ball, is this circumference, diameter, radius, or what? It is not very well explained in the article. 71.249.149.167 (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Back-building thunderstorm should be merged into the Classification section of the article like what has been done in the past like Supercell and Single cell. Bidgee (talk) 06:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Overblown

This article seems to greatly overblow the power of thunderstorms. It seems to imply that EF3+ tornadoes are common in supercells, which they are not. The article needs to be rewritten to express that most thunderstorms do not become severe, and only a miniscule fraction of thunderstorms produce tornadoes, and a fraction even smaller than that produce significant tornadoes (EF2+ per SPC definition). Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 14:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Electrical Storms vs Thunderstorms

It seems odd to me that electrical storms are lumped in with thunder storms, but what I am accustomed to calling an electrical storm (like a thunder storm, but without rain) isn't mentioned in the article. Am I missing something or is that usage merely a local one? CsikosLo (talk) 02:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The two are considered the same thing, those are just different names. A thunderstorm without precipitation is called a "dry thunderstorm". -- IRP (talk) 02:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

No thunder

There was a thunderstorm here last night, and there wasn't as much thunder as there were lightening bolts, and there seemed to be two sources of the lightening, one flashing more than the other - is this ok? 90.208.116.48 (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

What you may have experienced was Heat lightning where you see lightning but hear no sound. THis happens regularly and is normal. The reason why you dont hear anything is because the storm was probably far away or there was more than one storm present. 71.112.229.17 (talk) 04:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Heat lightning is just plain wrong.
With an associated thunderstorm there is always lightning, however, the tricky part is knowing that light travels much much farther than sound does. This is very important to realize. My best example is when I lived in Norman, Oklahoma, we used to watch the towering thunderheads over Dallas, Texas at night flash like crazy, very spectacular (while in Norman at my apartment).
The point is, thunder from each lightning bolt can only be heard so far, possibly less than 10-15 miles. Now if your t-storm is 10-15miles tall already, I hope you can see that there may be some flashes that you see, but do not hear anything. —Will research for food (talk) 12:44, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

new image of a developing cumulonimbus

I would like to add my image of a cumulonimbus to the article in the section "Life cycle." Any objections or suggestions?--JezFabi (talk) 17:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Type: Dirty thunderstorm

Anyway to incorporate the Dirty thunderstorm term here. -IncidentFlux [ TalkBack | Contributions ] 21:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

According to NationalGeographic.com - Chile Volcano Erupts With Ash and Lightning

After 9,000 years of silence, Chile's Chaiten volcano erupted, generating on May 3 what may have been a "dirty thunderstorm." These little-understood storms may be caused when rock fragments, ash, and ice particles collide to produce static charges--just as ice particles collide to create charges in regular thunderstorms.

Green sky

There have been some studies (mostly inconclusive as I recall) regarding whether the sky can turn green during a thunderstorm and what causes it. I'm not sure whether this should be a part of this article, the supercell article, or something else if at all. Hellbus (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


America Biases

Couldn't help but notice the 'Where thunderstorms occur' section, half of it is about where thunderstorms occur in just the united states. The whole article also seems to have too much focus on america. I think the american information could be diluted a little at least with info about other areas. 58.106.108.146 (talk) 04:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Improvement

The threat section of the article should be expanded to include the hazards produced by those phenomena. Currently it only lists the phenomena that can occur during thunderstorms, and a brief sentence about damages they can produced. KnowledgeRequire (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is a list of threats and hazards we can cover on this topic:
  • Downbursts
  • Large Hail
  • Tornadoes
  • Cloud-to-Ground Lightning
  • Flash Flooding
  • Wildfires
  • Tropical Cyclones
KnowledgeRequire (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I've added more to the squall line and hail sections, as well as adding a motion section, which was sorely needed. References are also being added, and are significantly lacking within this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 17:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to start writing a myth section for this article, since there are a few myths about the mechanisms of thunderstorms and lightning. With that, I guess a safety section can also be added? KnowledgeRequire (talk) 17:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Flooding and tornadoes require completely opposite actions. We removed that from the severe weather article because of this dilemna. Thegreatdr (talk) 17:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, that's true. Though the safety section does not necessary have to cover all the hazards that exist in thunderstorms. It could just cover the safety and precautions to take during lightning phenomena. The same goes for the myths section. KnowledgeRequire (talk) 17:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Six sections/subsections still require references. Once the article is adequately referenced, we can send it on to GAN. Thegreatdr (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

We also need to eliminate the cleanup templates as well. KnowledgeRequire (talk) 18:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
True. Some of that work has already occurred though, but it will continue. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

We're down to four subsections which still require references. Work to unify the ref format within the article has begun...there are 12 refs which need to be brought into cite web format. I don't think tropical cyclones need to be covered within this article. Tornadoes and downbursts are talked about in a cursory way, which is fine. The severe weather article, as well as the tornado, outflow boundary, and downburst articles can get into more detail, as they should as subarticles. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been spotting quite amount of false, inaccurate, or unclear information in the contents before improvements were made. We need to fix those as well once we are done with coverage and referencing. KnowledgeRequire (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Of course. I've been fixing errors as I've gone along as well. Some of the lack of clarity may be artifacts of my editing though. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The remaining issues are resolving the ref format to be consistent through the article, and some expansion of the energy and mythology sections. The article should now be well-enough referenced factwise to pass GAN. Thegreatdr (talk) 18:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Added a tornado section, and struck your comment out above. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
This is just an opinon, but the tornado section(I realize that this was obtained from other articles) goes a bit too much into their characteristics and geographic distribution. It should be added with more contents regarding the hazards they can produce. KnowledgeRequire (talk) 22:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Will make the changes. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hailstorm in the lead sentence is not correct

On the topic of synonyms, t-storm is a more common synonym than hail storm. Besides, hail storm is not correct, given that all thunderstorms DO NOT have hail in them, nor do all t-storms precipitate hail necessary to be called a hail storm. I am going to change it, unless someone disagrees tell me why here. —Will research for food (talk) 12:53, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. It was a relic which was apparently missed by myself and the GAN reviewer. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

signs

There should be a section explaining the signs of a thunderstorm is coming or if there are favourable conditions for thunderstorm development. --86.41.138.186 (talk) 18:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I also think there should be (and will add, unless someone objects) a section on thunderstorm safety, as "thunderstorm safety" currently redirects to lightning (which doesn't really make much sense, if you think about it; lightning isn't the only hazard associated with thunderstorms). Sleddog116 (talk) 13:27, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Flash Floods

This term is misdescribed in this article. A flash flood is a very sudden unexpected flood as when a dam wall bursts. When it rains upstream but no rain at your location and this results in a wall of water flowing down a narrow river - that is the typical flash flood. Heavy rain resulting in water on the ground is just called flooding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whatdoctor (talk • contribs) 22:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if I would say that the term is misdescribed, but I agree this section needs a bit of cleanup. The NWS glossary definition of flash flooding [1] does list "intense rainfall" as one example of a "causative event" of flash flooding. I do agree, however, that there should be a distinction between flash flooding and normal flooding. Flash flooding is a "rapid water level rise", where flooding is slower. (I'll admit, too; I'm going purely by the National Weather Service definition. If anyone can find additional sources, please share them. I've got a field guide, but not handy. I'll consult it when possible and update if necessary.) Also, I think the last few sentences of this section (from "Like all forms..." on) should be moved to the main article for flash flood, as they are relevant to flash flooding but really have nothing to do with thunderstorms. I'll move the text and make appropriate corrections. Regards. Sleddog116 (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Flash Flood". National Weather Service.

Australian thunderstorms?

Why is there so many pictures of Australian thunderstorms in this article? You'd think this was an 'Australian Wikipedia' or something like that, haha. Surely less Australia pictures and more from other countries would be better, to show that thunderstorms happen all around the world. In fact, I'm quite surprised there isn't one Florida thunderstorm picture on here. 82.16.15.192 (talk) 21:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism?

So, this article seems to be vandalized on a pretty routine basis, mostly by IP address-only users. Is this something new? Does (or has) the article need(ed) some extra protection? Just wondering... Guy1890 (talk) 20:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Any desire to improve the Cloud to Ground Lightning section?

Although, lightning caused forest fires are devastating, lightning is just the ignition source, akin to a match, fireworks, etc., taking advantage of a weaken forest resulting from way more issues than just lightning. Acid rain from lightning, pretty much the same. The percentage of water that is acidified by lightning barely blips on the radar in comparison to that from man-made pollution.

Meanwhile, billions of dollars annually are spent on protecting against CtG lightning damages globally, and trillions of dollars in infrastructure, resources and global commerce are protected, or needing protection from lightning. There's an entire industry that dwarfs that of wildland forest fighters for instance. Yet there is no mention.

I come here with this request, knowing the status of this page in the wikicommunity, while also knowing the other pages Lightning, Lightning rod, etc., that address this global issue/topic are fraught with problems, credibility issues, contradictions, and a general inability to edit with neutrality or civility for that matter. I've been in those trenches before :(

So just looking to see if there is any interest here. Borealdreams (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

As a meteorologist by trade, I actually plan on doing a complete review of this entire article at some point in the near future, so I'll keep your request in mind when I do. Guy1890 (talk) 01:04, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Crouching

If reaching a safe, sturdy building is not possible, crouch as low as possible (in a low area like a ditch) and minimize contact with the ground. I wonder what people will say if I do that the next time there's a thunderstorm coming up while I'm out for a walk :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.187.108.159 (talk) 18:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the NWS stopped recommending crouching outside during a thunderstorm in the USA years ago. See: [1], [2] & [3]. Guy1890 (talk) 20:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Above info now added to this article. Guy1890 (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

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self link

please change ((thunderstorms)) to thunderstorms

 Done ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:30, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

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Hurricane or Cyclone?

Seems to be a lack of consistancy in the article (and wiki in general) as to what to generally call a rotating, severe storm. Was under the impression that 'Hurricane', 'Cyclone' and 'Typhoon' referred to the same basic weather phenomenon but in different areas of the planet? Hurricane for Atlantic storms, Cyclone for those in the Indian Ocean and Typhoon for Pacific storms.77.97.223.31 (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

A rotating, severe thunderstorm is a supercell. They are fundamentally different from cyclones (which includes typhoons and hurricanes) in that supercells are mesoscale, not synoptic scale. In other words, cyclones are much larger and last a lot longer than supercell thunderstorms. PurpleDiana (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

SEVERE THUNDERSTORMS

I am of the opinion that the classification for severe thunderstorms is meaningless and of no use to the general public because it can't be measured nor is it an indication of severity. I am referring especially to the wind speed of 93 kilometres per hour (58 mph) and hail larger than 25 mm (1 inch). It could not be known as a storm develops whether this criteria will be exceeded or not. The fundamental indication of a storm's severity is it's size and height and whether it has contouring cells. With over 52 years in aviation and having flown as an airline Captain I would not call a storm severe unless it is at least 30,000' high, has an anvil and has a cell probably 5 miles or greater. Once these conditions are observed you can be sure that winds of a certain speed, hail size, rain and lightning will follow. 

        If the observed storm/s are as described there will normally be more than one, they will develop into a line and will not be isolated. If the conditions are right for storms to develop above 30,000' you can be sure there will be many of them. The highest storms I have encountered in an airline career have had tops to 70,000' and been around 400 miles long and they produced 6 inch hail and did enormous damage. Storms should be classified more like hurricanes or cyclones and for each 10,000' extra above 30,000' you could increase their severity rating.

R.Kleeman Australia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:6B52:600:A924:D729:246D:A503 (talk) 05:37, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Types of lightning

This section should be deleted. There is already a Lightning page on WP which includes a section that describes the different types of lightning in much greater detail that is described here. The section also goes beyond the scope of this page which should be an introductory overview of thunderstorms, their characteristics, and their impacts without delving too much into specifics. PurpleDiana (talk) 01:39, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I will be deleting this section from the page due to aforementioned reasons. Useful information regarding the hazards of lightning should be placed under the "cloud-to-ground lightning" section. Otherwise, there are multiple pages on WP that deal specifically with lightning and lightning strikes-- describing the content of this section in far better detail and people specifically interested in lightning should be redirected to those pages. If you believe this section should remain as is, please explain your reasons here. PurpleDiana (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

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Use of term "electrical storm"

Although all thunderstorms are, by definition, electrical in nature, the actual term "electrical storm" is usually used informally when referring to storms with particularly intense lightning. I'm not quite sure where in the article such information can go, but since we use the term in the introduction it might be helpful to specify. "Lightning storm" by contrast is used synonymously with thunderstorm more frequently. 96.51.188.175 (talk) 23:12, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Are you able to provide a source supporting your claim that "electrical storm" refers to a thunderstorm with intense lightning? In my experience, this term is used when one is trying to highlight the specific dangers of the lightning (electrical) discharges with no regard to the intensity or type of thunderstorm involved. If this is the case, then there is no need to expand on this any further in the article. PurpleDiana (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

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Discussion about part of opening paragraph

Reading through the opening paragraph - specifically the sentence "Thunderstorms occur in a type of cloud known as a cumulonimbus," - I've immediately got some bad feelings about it; I feel like this should be "usually occur," but I'm not confident enough in that knowledge to just go in and change it. My concern is sort of in two steps:

  • Lightning discharges can occur in clouds other than cumulonimbus (e.g. nimbostratus and cumuliform clouds other than cumulonimbus), but is a thunderstorm "anything with lightning"?
  • Even when lightning occurs in other cloud forms, can they occur separately from cumulonimbus (i.e. nimbostratus clouds produce lightning, but can they do so if they're not in some way connected to/resultant from a cumulonimbus formation)?

I know this is a lot of discussion over one sentence in the lead, but I hate the thought of a sentence being in the lead that allows for no exceptions when exceptions are possible. But I'm posting here because I think it's worth discussing rather than just going in and changing it unilaterally. Cheers. Sleddog116 (talk) 16:08, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

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Image

Hi everyone! Is it ok that I replaced the image with this one? 🌀HurricaneGeek🌀 {talk ⋅ contribs}} 14:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2020

Add photo plz (The previous one was deleted) 219.78.190.113 (talk) 04:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 14:16, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

T-storm

I'd like to see a V and RS for a thunderstorm being called a t-storm and that this term is in any way common enough for the lead. Otherwise I'll remove it again, Thanks. Verbal chat 07:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

T-storm is a acronym/abbreviation used in the US (IE: Weather Channel and NOAA) where space is limited for forecasts and warnings. I have seen T-storm used in Australia but it's not really a common acronym/abbreviation. However I don't think it should be used within the article. Bidgee (talk) 07:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it OK to say "abbreviated as t-storm"? -- IRP (talk) 02:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
No it's not since t-storm is not a common abbreviation. Bidgee (talk) 02:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it OK to say "sometimes abbreviated as t-storm"? -- IRP (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Not really since the lead sentence is mostly for common words not ones which are not commonly said. Bidgee (talk) 02:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Should it be put somewhere within the article? -- IRP (talk) 02:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
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