Talk:Thin Lizzy/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Black Star Riders

As of December 2012, the final lineup of Thin Lizzy decided to continue under a different name: Black Star Riders. See http://blackstarriders.com/?p=579 . Apparently they didn't think it was right to record new material without Phil. Anyway, what would be the best way to go about updating this page (and the members page) to reflect this? Mostly small changes (are -> were, etc) I guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.191.176.33 (talk) 16:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty much covered in the article, down in the "Thin Lizzy without Lynott (1996–present)" section. Thin Lizzy are not dead and buried though, and will surface occasionally to do odd shows here and there. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Decent article - now needs more support

I started reading this article and a few things have become apparent. First is that it is a decent article, and second is that it needs some attention. The prose could be tightened up, the cites used often need page numbers, and some statements need checking, as not all statements are supported by the attached cites, though misleadingly some statements have cites next to them which makes it appear as though the statements have been verified (example where the text says Bell bought the comic, but the sources do not support this). On looking into the article history I note that this article has been brought from this in 2006 to how it is now pretty much single-handedly by User:Bretonbanquet. Wikipedia depends on the hard work of such dedicated editors. But Bretonbanquet needs some support now. For 10 years he's worked on this article alone, and he can't be expected to get everything right, or to do all the work himself. The tedious and thankless job of putting in page numbers on over 40 cites will be done more quickly and easily if other folks join in. Other editors checking over the prose and improving it here and there would be a great asset. Discussions on improvements to the article (such as greater detail and depth on the early history - the band members each had a bit of history before they all met up in December 1969 in the Countdown Club, which it would be useful to detail) would help in driving the article forward. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments. Page numbers won't be a problem; I can deal with that pretty easily. I hesitate slightly with regard to tightening up the prose. I've no doubt that here and there, wording could be improved, but some Wikipedians have a habit of changing wording on a grand scale with little or no improvement, and I'd like to avoid that. Most of my wording is explicitly designed to convey a particular meaning, and I find that changing it can often mean that meaning is lost.

The history of the band members prior to their time in Thin Lizzy – some members had quite extensive careers prior to joining the band, and I felt that this was better dealt with in those members' own articles, so as to avoid this one becoming too long, or to divert from the flow of the band narrative, for want of a better phrase. I could expand the band's pre-history to double the length of the article if I wanted. That said, some slight expansion on Orphanage, Skid Row and Bell's time in showbands is a good idea. SilkTork, if you feel that extra length is justified, I would be glad to expand on anything you feel would be worthwhile. Highlight anything else you feel looks misleading or not backed up by cites.

With regard to the naming of the band, Bell told me he bought that particular copy of the Dandy, but I've also read that he had found a pile of old comics and was just browsing through them when he saw the Tin Lizzie strip. I doubt his memory is that great, so it might be worth glossing over the exact provenance of the comic he was reading that day. The idea that Tin Lizzie the robot was named after the Model T Ford... no idea, I didn't add that or the cite. I'm not sure it really matters here anyway. I can add further theories (from relevant people) on the naming of the band if required. It originally had its own section, which I left, but now it has been merged into the body of the main story – I don't have any strong opinion on that.

I'd also like to say that this article has been very stable for a good few years, and has attracted very kind words from several members of the band regarding its "warts and all" nature, and general accuracy. One current member recently told me he actually learned something about the band from this article, and asked another member to verify it, which he did. It's a complicated story, and it can easily be overcomplicated if sufficient care and attention is not exercised. The main objectives should continue to be readability and accuracy. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

With regard to page numbers in cites – I use Alan Byrne's original 2004 text, not any of the later versions. It would be worth sticking to one or the other. Also, SilkTork, we can clean up the use of "frontman" in the intro if you wish – I didn't actually write much of the intro, and it could probably be improved, although again, it has been stable. There was a time when this article was anything but stable! Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

The 2007 SAF version of Byrne's book is on Google Books, which makes citing that version preferable as readers will be more easily able to verify the facts. In general, more recent publications are preferred anyway as they tend to correct earlier errors, and to be updated.

I think you have done a grand job with this article. I rarely get involved in articles for prolonged periods, however I would be happy to stay around for a while to push this article a little closer to Featured article quality. I do think that is something you could be aiming for. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I'll leave the page numbers to someone else then, as my technology struggles with Google Books. Thanks for your kind words; anything you can suggest to make improvements is welcomed, particularly in areas where you think clarity could be improved. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Skid Row

It would be useful to briefly mention that Lynott formed Skid Row given the later links with that band to Thin Lizzy. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:27, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

SilkTork, how do you feel about a separate pre-history sub-section prior to talking about when the band members first met? It might be a clear way to lay a bit of foundation instead of inserting talk of previous bands into the current text. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:22, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd already started some work on the earlier history before I saw this note. Yes, I agree that the pre=history shouldn't be excessive; we should be looking at what might be important details and getting the balance right rather than merely listing early bands. Skid Row seems significant. A few quick mentions on the members backgrounds can also be helpful so as to inform readers on basic facts, such as that Lynott was born in England, but that his mother was Irish, and he was brought up in Dublin from an early age. On a related note, I have amened the lead from "Thin Lizzy are an Irish rock band... " to "Thin Lizzy are a rock band formed in Dublin, Ireland..." as I don't think any of the current members are Irish, and through the band's history only a handful of members (mainly the founding members) were Irish. The band's Irish roots are important, but they became more international as time went on. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm never that happy with ascribing nationalities to bands anyway, as there's no real-world way to verify them. They're generally referred to as an Irish band, and some editors may well try to restore that wording, but let's hope not. Ricky Warwick continues the Irish strain in the current line-up, but that doesn't satisfy everyone by any means. That's the kind of problem this article had some years ago, nationalist stuff. Skid Row is definitely significant as that's where Lynott first encountered Moore. I'll make an attempt at a paragraph about the members' earlier experience and include your idea of a brief family background in that. The mechanics of how the band members met can come after that in a paragraph devoted just to that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I've added that section and hopefully included the most relevant info. Formatting of page numbers etc is something I've done (per MOS) on a preliminary basis and can be adjusted if you think necessary. I've left the relevant details of the first meeting as agreed upon by several sources, i.e. Bell and Wrixon had a view to forming a band before meeting Lynott and Downey, Bell was mostly interested in Downey rather than Lynott, and that Downey was initially not keen. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I like what you have done with the early history section. I will try to help out when and where I can, but I tend to be available for Wikipedia less and less these days. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:03, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Other Thin Lizzy releases and tributes

This section is fairly minor, and mainly deals with compilation albums that could be better dealt with in the Thin Lizzy discography article. However, a section on the legacy of Thin Lizzy would be useful. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:34, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Announced and decided

As part of tightening the prose, take a look at phrases with "announced" or "decided". Generally these are not needed once the event has taken place. For example: "It was announced in April 2011 that Vivian Campbell would have to leave Thin Lizzy to rejoin Def Leppard after one final gig on 28 May. He was replaced by Guns N' Roses guitarist Richard Fortus." could be written as: "Vivian Campbell rejoined Def Leppard in May 2001, being replaced by Guns N' Roses guitarist Richard Fortus." (or "Vivian Campbell was replaced by Guns N' Roses guitarist Richard Fortus when Campbell left to rejoin Def Leppard in May 2001.") And "With the departure of Moore, Lynott decided to expand the line-up with two guitarists, and recruited two temporary members to complete a tour of Germany in May 1974. These were ex-Atomic Rooster and Hard Stuff guitarist John Cann, and Berlin-born Andy Gee, who had played with Peter Bardens and Ellis. Neither was considered as a permanent member, as Lynott and Cann did not get on well personally,[8] and Gee was under contract to another record label." could be written as "After Moore's departure, Lynott recruited two guitarists, John Cann and Andy Gee, as temporary replacements for a tour of Germany in May 1974." How much space given to them regarding their prior or subsequent careers, or personal issues with them, given that they were temporary replacements for a minor tour, and never recorded with the band, is open to editorial judgement. They are wiki-linked so if folks want more info on them they can click on those links. I'd be more interested in why the tour ended early, than that Gee was born in Berlin, for example. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I would take some issue with this kind of rewording. I see it less as tightening of prose, and more as removal of detail and clarity. For example, with regard to Decca's decision to release "Whisky in the Jar" as a single – it was the decision that angered the band, not the release itself. Otherwise it is implied that the record was released and then the band became angry, which is not the case. Likewise Campbell leaving in May 2010 – your wording implies (to me at least) that he left suddenly, which is not the case. Regarding Cann and Gee; I see that as an unnecessary removal of detail, to be honest. There's an obvious question of why they were temporary, and to not explain that seems remiss. They were not hired as temporary; they just became temporary as things panned out badly. That is not clear at the moment, I accept that. The tour ended early because Cann and Lynott didn't get on, so I feel it's relevant. Gee being German I considered as relevant because it was a tour of Germany, and there was a strong implication that he was (at least partly) hired to help with the language barrier. I'd say that if Cann and Gee were going to be reduced to a short sentence, then there's not really any point in mentioning them at all. I don't want to be a dick and pour cold water on what you're saying, but there's usually a good reason for my wording. It really depends on whether the desire is for the article to be thinned out in terms of detail. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)