Talk:The Sun

Partial matches

@Z0: We apparently worked on this dab page at the same time. In my version, I grouped the entries a bit differently and I did not keep partial title matches such as The Baltimore Sun. Do you think we should keep some of them, and why? — JFG ^talk 10:31, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

It looks better now without the partial matches. The editor whose username is Z0 10:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Italic text

I don't think the title or intro should include italic text, the star isn't referred to like that and neither are some of the other entries, like The Sun (American band). The previous revert apparently only applied to the "bad grammar". Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:37, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Most entries under The Sun refer to publications, which is why I think we should italicize the title. A couple of band names and songs doesn't change this. Finally, the link to our beloved star is just here for convenience, it is not one of the dab subjects for title "The Sun". — JFG ^talk 14:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

But not all entries are. The RFD was split between having this as a DAB or redirecting to the star. Howver I can't find a guildline on this, neither Wikipedia:ITALIC nor the DAB makes reference to this but I'd say its inappropriate to use unless every item is italic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Let's call up the Demigod of the Holy MOS, SMcCandlish, for an expert opinion. The question is: given that most entries on this dab page are newspapers and other creative works, but not all, should we italicize the title? — JFG ^talk 10:22, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Of course it should not be in italics. Sun still has the strongest claim to primary topic, there are also bands, songs and The Sun (Tarot card) which do not use italics. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Newspaper titles on Wikipedia are generally in italics, eg The New York Times.The Sun isn't particularly unusual here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:35, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a newspaper, it's a disambiguation page with an italicized title for some reason. If this was a set index that only listed newspapers then it would be understandable. —Xezbeth (talk) 16:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

There is Sun (newspaper) which is italicized but as noted the star is the primary meaning if any which is not usually italicized. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

This page is primarily about disambiguating newspapers and other publications which are called The Sun. As such, it isn't a disaster that the words are in italics, but I'm not going to argue over it one way or the other.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

A DAB page title shouldn't be italicized if any entries on it are not. I would argue further that it shouldn't be done at all (except maybe for a foreign-language phrase, something we italicize to mark it as un-English). We italicize the title of a major published work because it (that specific work) is a major published work. That rationale doesn't apply to a list of things that share the same name. "The Sun" as a phrase with multiple notable topical matches is the subject of the DAB page, and that phrase is not in and of itself a major published work.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:30, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: I wish I could have seen it this way all by myself. Thanks for your words of wisdom! — JFG ^talk 16:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

"Good coffee! And hot!".  ;-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:29, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 13 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus against this requested move. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t 桜 c) 07:38, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

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The Sun → The Sun (disambiguation) – The Sun is obviously the primary topic and should be moved to the title with parenthetical disambiguation. Interstellarity (talk) 17:36, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: see also three previous discussions (linked at the top of this page): 2010, was then a redirect to Sun, no consensus for change; 2016, keep as redirect to Sun; 2018, closed as disambiguate as seen now. Normally, I'd suggest that three discussions are enough, but after struggling to see any sort of consensus in the most recent debate (however, do read the closing statement which explains the decision), perhaps another is merited. Lithopsian (talk) 19:09, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, the most common incoming links to The Sun are for the current British newspaper, followed by a defunct Australian newspaper (the latter often in refs). I know this because I periodically check. There is a difference between the Sun and The Sun, which keeping this as a disambiguation page helps to keep clear. I have to say I think it's too soon after the last discussion. DuncanHill (talk) 12:08, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

  The previous discussion was over a year ago and the nom of this discussion didn't even participate in the previous one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you DuncanHill. I fixed a pile of newspaper links last year and now I know why I found so few bad links to The Sun (2 for UK, 1 for Sydney). Certes (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Lean Oppose but will keep watch. I am normally a Sun fan, and this makes sense on many levels, but read the last 2010 RM yesterday and the number of topics (including notable newspapers) is still a substantial argument. If there were some way to allow "the Sun" (lower-cased "the") to guide a search then this would surely be the way to go. But since only upper-cased "The"s make the search engine run, woe to the Sun. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose While it is true that The Earth redirects to Earth, "The Sun" is the name of a number of newspapers. It merits a disambiguation page due to the probability that people are searching for said newspapers._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Question @Lithopsian, DuncanHill, Randy Kryn, and Zxcvbnm: I have changed the redirect target of The sun from Sun to The Sun. Do you agree with this change? Interstellarity (talk) 22:08, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, it should redirect there._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• While the star is still a proper noun, its the only topic that could be referred to as "the sun" since the newspapers would always be written in upper case, I suggest it should be changed back per WP:DIFFCAPS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• Change back per Crouch, Swale. "sun", incorrectly lower cased, almost always refers to the star in some form (either the star itself or "sun" when talking about "sunlight") and not the newspapers Randy Kryn (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Probably best to change it back given that it would be somewhat controversial, but I'm not too stressed about it. I checked for incoming links to the sun and there were none from mainspace. Ironically, there was a wikilink to the Sun, from a comet article and referring to the star. I fixed it. Neither option is perfect here, the sun is incorrectly capitalised for the star or the newspaper, but I imagine the star is not capitalised quite often, while it would be rare for the newspaper. Lithopsian (talk) 12:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Zxcvbnm: wouldn't you agree that having the lower case redirect to the star is acceptable per WP:DIFFCAPS? Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, case shouldn't matter in this instance since both the Sun and The Sun are upper-case._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As someone who was interested in the Solar System when I was 7/8 years old and knowing that our Sun is 8 and a bit minutes away from us compared to over 4 light years away for the next nearest star, I wasn't aware until a year or so ago that the term "sun" (lower case) refers to a star with planets around it. While Earth's star could arguably be titled The Sun per WP:THE since "sun" has a different meaning similar to crown, the generic term seems to be obscure and I don't think the specific star would be expected to be referred to with "The" being part of the name. However I still agree with Randy Kryn in that while some readers won't bother to capitalize proper nouns anyway the star is far more likely to be the only one that could reasonably be written in running text with a lower case "s". Thus like Iron maiden/Iron Maiden I think this is a valid case for DIFFCAPS since the news papers would clearly not be called with a lower case "s" however I'll wait until the end of this discussion before reverting since if this is closed as consensus for the star to be primary for the upper case "S" this will be moot anyway. In addition DuncanHill's concern about incoming links for the newspapers are unlikely to be an issue for the lower case "s". Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Came within a sunbeam of reverting this recent move, it should be changed back to redirect to Sun. Thanks for your memories, interested in the Solar System too as a youngster and had a poster of it hung in my room. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

While I agree with Zxcvbnm in that if all the DAB entries are upper case then the lower case should automatically follow it (and vice versa) I think this is still a valid case for DIFFCAPS. If one writes "sun" with a lower case "s" it would nearly always mean Earth's star not stars in general and that would be the case even more so if "the" is added before it, in which case the noun of a star with planets wouldn't be meant at all. Even though in the previous discussion I was in favour of having Earth's star as primary for the upper case I now don't think it is, its unlikely someone is looking for our star if they are adding "The" and searching with an upper case "S". Either way we can probably say that Sun has a stronger claim for "The sun" than "The Sun". Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:46, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm not sure a lower-case 'the' option would change my mind, being unable to imagine confusing The Sun with the sun or the Sun, but see this case. Sparafucil (talk) 05:14, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

And don't get me started on Star system (filmmaking) :-P Sparafucil (talk) 19:59, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Clearly our star is the most important topic on the page but I'm not convinced that it's primary for The Sun with a capital S. There is a better case for retargeting The sun to Sun. Keeping The Sun as a dab also helps editors to link to the right page. Although that should not be our first priority, it does make us more likely to get things right for the reader. Certes (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
• Just to be clear, I'm assuming that the link to Sun will continue to be the primary above-the-fold topic on the disamb. page no matter what happens with this RM, as it has been since its creation. There seems to be some question on that. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"The sun" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The sun. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Interstellarity (talk) 14:56, 22 September 2019 (UTC)