Talk:The Star-Spangled Banner/Archive 3

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Stafford Smith's music

The section called "John Stafford Smith's music" shows "sheet music version" that's the modern version of the tune, not Smith's version. There is already an image of sheet music labeled as "The earliest surviving sheet music...." There's nothing wrong with showing sheet music for the modern arrangement, but it doesn't seem like the appropriate section. While the other "earliest surviving" sheet music isn't identical to Smith's version of the tune, it's at least very close. It would make sense to have the "sheet music version" in the section called "National anthem" and either remove it from the section about Smith's music, or replace the sheet music in that section with a version of "The Anacreontic Song." Hagrinas (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

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The poem by FS Key

The original 1814 poem by FS Key, "Defence of Fort M'Henry" contained four verses. A fifth was added by Oliver W. Holmes in 1861. When the National Anthem lyrics were adopted by Congress in 1931, What was adopted? Was it the first verse which is usually sung, the original four verses, or all five verses, which were adopted?50.4.68.31 (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2017 (UTC)Barry Glasgal 9/6/17

It's unclear, but presumably not just the first verse. The statute says, "The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem." I've added that to the article. John M Baker (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Spelling: "The Star-Spangled Banner" or "The Star-spangled Banner"?

Seems to me the correct spelling of this article should be with a lower case "s" in "Spangled" (i.e., "Star-spangled Banner") because "spangled" is being modified by the word "Star" and, therefore, it is part of the word "Star". That is, "Star-spangled" is 1 word, not 2 words. Because it is only 1 word, it can have no more than 1 Capital letter. Therefore, is its spelled "Star-spangled", not the current "Star-Spangled". That's why we spell American-born Chinese, Seventh-day Adventist Church, etc. (Contrast these with Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration, Tydings–McDuffie Act, U.S.–Russia Business Council, Anglo-Saxon Clubs of America, etc., where the second word is -not- modifying the first word but is an equal with it.) Mercy11 (talk) 03:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

It's the title of a song/anthem, so we use the spelling that is used in reliable sources. Older sources appear to use "The Star Spangled Banner", while more modern sources use "The Star-Spangled Banner". - BilCat (talk) 21:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

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Two meanings of the anthem

@User:Gilliam: I would appreciate further feedback on your undoing of my edit to the The Star-Spangled Banner article. Your "still editorializing" comment is puzzling to me. First of all, why "still"? Was there some attempt to put this information into the article in the past? Also, why "editorializing"? It seems relevant (and published in a secondary source) that there are at least two interpretations for the meaning of the national anthem. People who think it is about fallen military are puzzled when someone protesting the anthem says that they are not disrespecting the military; and likewise people who think it is about the country generally are puzzled when someone accuses them of specifically disrespecting the military. Without taking a stance on which of these interpretations is true and without taking a stance on whether protests against the anthem are reasonable or not, etc., I think it is relevant to the article to inform people that there are these two interpretations. I would appreciate your detailed thoughts on this matter, and likewise from any other interested parties. 64.132.59.226 (talk) 15:05, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I believe your addition was irrelevant to the history and legal aspects of the anthem, even if it fit the editorial narrative of the newspaper article you cited. Maybe if you added it to the protests section it would make more sense.– Gilliam (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick response, @User:Gilliam. It is my thinking that the fact that there are two interpretations is true whether or not anyone ever protests during the anthem, and thus that the section on protests is not particularly relevant for this information. Although the article has sections on what the anthem is, its history, when it is sung, etc., I see no section specifically dedicated to its meaning and/or to why it is sung. The "Customs" section seemed most relevant of the existing sections. What do you think about creating a "Meaning" or "Purpose" (sub)section? If those titles are too "editorializing", what would be better? Where would we put it? 64.132.59.226 (talk) 15:45, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Please add a new Meaning/Purpose section. I only objected to adding an interpretation of the anthem's meaning to the modern public to the History or Legal sections of what is an 18th-century war song.– Gilliam (talk) 16:22, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I gave it a try. If you find it lacking, please modify it appropriately. 64.132.59.226 (talk) 17:22, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it again. As it currently stands it's unacceptable in an encyclopedia. You can't have a statement "some say" that is only backed up by one source that doesn't entirely support the claim either. At the very least it needs re-writing to avoid the "Some say" phrasing. Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:34, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

@Chaheel Riens: Rather than my thrashing about trying to find an alternative to "some say" that will not get reverted, would you suggest language that should pass muster? I will seek additional references. 64.132.59.226 (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

You would probably view my suggestion as unhelpful, but I don't consider the information necessary to the article, so wouldn't include it at all. I think you will struggle to find the overwhelming sources you need to confirm such a theory and warrant inclusion. Bear in mind you are talking about the national anthem for the United States of America - not the meaning behind some two-bit pop song. Your sources need to be unimpeachable - and to specifically cover enough interest to be valid representations of the American public at large. It seems that if you google "what does the star spangled banner mean" and similar phrases you can find sources that will support pretty much any interpretation you choose to champion - hence your original comment of "People who think it is about fallen military are puzzled when someone protesting the anthem says that they are not disrespecting the military; and likewise people who think it is about the country generally are puzzled when someone accuses them of specifically disrespecting the military" is true, because one of those lovable things about the American Joe (and Joanne) is that they think what they want, Goddammit. Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

March 3 or March 4?

March 3 seems to be consider the day the song was adopted as the anthem, yet the article states Hoover signed the bill on March 4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.82.105 (talk) 16:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

British ships of the Royal Navy

"British ships of the Royal Navy"

If they are ships of the Royal Navy, they are bound to be British. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.70.49.32 (talk) 05:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

There are other Royal Navies in existence besides that of the UK. - BilCat (talk) 05:35, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Errors in Article

These errors are being picked up by media outlets. Need to clarify.

The first publisher of the song's lyrics, a broadside printed by the Baltimore American and Commercial Advertiser, titled it "The Defence of Fort M'Henry." Francis Scott Key did not title his verses. [1]

The first sheet music publisher, Thomas Carr of Baltimore, gave the song the title "The Star Spangled Banner" because this phrase is the only recurring one in the lyrics. Ferris, p. 25 Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

Key explicitly wrote the words to fit the melody of "To Anacreon in Heaven."

Hankcash (talk) 18:49, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I added some information about the modern history, as it is presented at History.com that did cite their sources. I'm sorry to be so lazy as to not use their original sources. I did get the archived version, so if they edit the page because of current controversy, it'll be all there.

I'm just thinking of those who want to know when the anthem became a fixture at sports events. It seems fairly ridiculous to many, but there it is. DegreeofGlory (talk) 17:40, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Marc Ferris, Star-Spangled Banner: The Unlikely Story of America's National Anthem, p. 23

Appropriate to include analysis of fifth verse and the sixth verse wholesale?

Paging BillCat. RepubliqueD'UnionArabique (talk) 16:26, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

The edits mentioning Donald Trump are poorly sourced, not notable, and just don't belong here. Also the mention of "right-wing mass movements in the US" is just false. Do you mean the Republican Party? MikeR613 (talk) 17:25, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't the note about Trump links go in its own topic section, not under 5th and 6th versus? Ecarzon (talk) 03:51, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Sources for expanding article

  • Wheat, Shawn (June 11, 2019). "Daily National Anthem tribute to become a tradition again on WIBW". wibw.com. Topeka, Kan. 'We at Gray Television and at WIBW are bringing back the national anthem to start our tradition local day,' said Roger Brokke, General Manager for WIBW-TV.

Senator2029 “Talk” 03:41, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm wondering if there is any connection between Turlough O'Carolan's Bumper Squire Jones and The Anacreontic Song and in turn the star spangled banner. Considering that Bumper Squire Jones sounds almost identical to Anacreontic song this seems very likely. If so why isn't it mentioned on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.43.46.230 (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2019

In the first verse of the National Anthem, there is a punctuation mistake. If you re-read Francis Scott Key's original paper with the Star-Spangled Banner, you will notice that the apostrophe between the word "rocket" and the possessive apostrophe " 's " is "rocket's" not "rockets'".

O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming? And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air, Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there; Ryan kamal (talk) 02:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Please provide a reliable, secondary source that supports this change. Even the image of the sheet music here doesn't support this. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:50, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2020

Can I please edit the anthem? Joe Sestak (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideausapere aude 19:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020

Link "raised fourth" to: Secondary_chord#Secondary_dominant 2601:404:C681:1D20:307C:F818:48A:A26A (talk) 05:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ~ Amkgp 💬 11:21, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Small edit to protest paragraph

Made a small edit to a sentence that assumed the third verse of the anthem condemned slaves that defected to the british side. This is not agreed upon by the experts at all, and the source given says this as well. Some historians claim its slang for colonial marines, not african slaves. Since there is not consensus as to the meaning of the lyric, I changed it to include the ambiguity. I also removed the root as a source since it is not considered a reliable source by wikipedia. Open to feedback. (User talk:Scottiekaz) 01:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2021

2.1 Performances Add paragraph

The anthem was performed by Lady Gaga at the inauguration of President Joe Biden on 20 January 2021.[1] Welly616 (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. We don't list every single performance of the anthem. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-21/j-lo-and-lady-gaga-blow-the-roof-off-bidens-inauguration/13076714

Arrangement of recordings

@PyroFloe: Thank you for your efforts to improve the visibility of audio samples in this article. That being said, I have reverted your edits changing the arrangement of national anthem renditions on this page for the following reasons:

  • You are correct that most national anthem articles have an instrumental in their infobox. However, I do not think that this is an established convention. It is mostly because some of the only high quality, freely usable recordings of national anthems have been made by the U.S. Navy Band, which does not generally perform its national anthems with vocalists. Therefore, we shouldn't take the fact that the US Navy Band's instrumental recordings are in every infobox as an indicator of a community consensus that this is the way it should be. This pattern is just a matter of necessity.
  • Using the National Anthem of Russia article as an example is not particularly compelling. You are correct that it is a featured article and that it arranges its recordings in a particular way. However, not every aspect of a featured article is unassailable, and when it last attained its featured status it did not have a bunch of audio recordings stacked at the top of the article, and the first (video) recording on the page included vocals (it was placed before an instrumental audio recording and an instrumental video recording).
  • I believe that the best "headline recordings" for articles about pieces of music are:
    • Faithful to the composition (A performance without errors is better than a performance with errors.)
    • Unabridged (The full piece is better than a 30 second sample.)
    • Performed in the most original/common manner and style (A classical arrangement of a classical piece is better than a jazz arrangement of that classical piece [for the article about that classical piece].)
    • High in audio quality (A 2020 320 kb/s recording on modern digital equipment is better than a 1890 phonograph recording.)
    • High in performance quality (A recording by a professional orchestra is better than a recording by an elementary school band.)
Admittedly, this is not a guideline; it is just my opinion. However, I feel like these are pretty reasonable standards which should not be particularly objectionable.
Both the Navy Band instrumental and the Army Field Band choral recordings are faithful to the composition, unabridged, and high in performance quality. I will note that the Army Field Band recording had roughly half the bitrate; I have since updated that file so that the two files have a comparable bitrate. Hopefully this addresses any quality concerns you might have had. This leaves one final consideration: the manner and style of performance. "The Star-Spangled Banner" is a song; it is sung. It is most commonly heard sung by a vocalist or choir, and as a national anthem its words carry its most significant patriotic meaning. Therefore, to use an instrumental recording when an otherwise equally good recording with lyrics exists would be a disservice to readers of this article.
  • Presenting the reader with 5 similar audio recordings at the top of the article is not of great importance to most readers, so it should be placed further down the article. Ideally, the recordings would be dispersed throughout the article in the most logical places (e.g.: a section about historical performances includes the 1915 recording). In the absence of this logical placement, perhaps it is appropriate to place several media files at the top of the page. But I feel like the best solution would be to keep them in the already existing "Media" section at the bottom of the article, as this is consistent with an inverted pyramid style of writing.  Mysterymanblue  06:51, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit on 9 March 2021

Ive restored a comment about a performance screwed up, which is referenced further in this talk page as being used externally. Ive further restored a block about popular adaptations by sports teams which was removed a few years ago for lack of citation. However the block is reasonable cited to me, and I invite others to further cite it. Zapman987 (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted this, as it's mostly non-notable trivia. Some of it isn't even cited, and still has the citation needed tags. After being gone 7 years, the onus is on you to gain support to re-add this. BilCat (talk) 20:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Understood, Ive back reverted the bit on Aguilera, as it directly supports a citation request. Will work for the rest before restoration. Zapman987 (talk) 20:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand. If a citation is needed, just add the citation. BilCat (talk) 20:28, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Its a direct example in support of the statement, with the example cited. I believe this supports wikipedia's goal of "using own words" to create content. Zapman987 (talk) 20:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I still don't understand. "Using own words" refers to writing cited content in one's own words instead of copying the text verbatim. What did you rewrite here? BilCat (talk) 20:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

"Professional and amateur singers have been known to forget the words, which is one reason the song is sometimes pre-recorded and lip-synced.[citation needed]" This is the statement. My edit is to include an example which supports the statement. Granted Im also paraphrasing "my words" with the previous content here. Im not trying to take direct credit for this, merely to support the previous content with further reason why it should be present. I think part of your confusion is you think me C&P here. Im more trying to restore previously included content, as I support why it was here. I also think you may be confusing my 2 blocks. I agree with your reasoning on the lack of citation for my large block, which is why Ive left it removed (I actually proposed moving it to another page that better fits it I think). Zapman987 (talk) 21:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion: Remove the Hyphenation

The original song title (as far as I am aware) does not use hyphenation. That is a modern convention. So shouldn't this page use the original spelling? Dsmith77 (talk) 15:01, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Key?

I found there is a category, Category:National anthem compositions by key, but the article doesn't state what key this song is in. Anyone there with musical knowledge that could put this article in the correct musical category? Liz Read! Talk! 16:38, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious? Francis Scott Key! BilCat (talk) 22:34, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Hahaha, Always good to have a bit of humor on Wiki, BilCat! But in all seriousness, Liz, it is supposed to be in B-flat major (source), but like most traditional songs, people change the key willy nilly all they want.  Mysterymanblue  23:23, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Can we include?

{{Americas topic}}

It should have appeared in the article. The United States is part of the American continent. 27.79.240.89 (talk) 08:47, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

No, because it's redundant to the existing navbox,

{{National Anthems of North America}}. BilCat (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2021

I don't think it should say that Francis Scott Key was an amateur poet, if he wrote the defense of fort Mc'Henry how can it possibly say amateur. Good day Sir. JaySantowski (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Reading the article, and also Francis Scott Key's own article, it would appear that he was indeed an amateur poet and a professional lawyer. Are you having some difficulty with the term amateur? I feel that it is quite clear. What exactly do you think it should say? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 22:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2021

Should we place a wikilink for "United States" in the infobox? 49.150.96.127 (talk) 00:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done. No earlier link to the United States in infobox. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 02:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Robert Ripley's involvement in the creation of the star spangled banner

On November 3, 1929--just a week after the stock market crash--ripley made a shameless statement in his first Sunday panel for Randolph Hearst: america has no national anthem The sensitive, writhing public went catatonic as Ripley correctly asserted that the star spangled banner was nothing more than an unofficial anthem, with the Melody lifted from an old English drinking song. But it took a little more than a year for Congress to pass a one-sentence bill, and on March 3, 1931, president Herbert Hoover signed into law "the Star spangled banneras Americas national anthem. Ethan helsley (talk) 00:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Older Publications

I understand what I am about to describe is not the norm, and has not been for some period of time. However, I believe that it is important to somehow make the following information accessible. In "The Educational Music Course. Fifth Reader", (dated 1902) by L. W. Mason et al., I have noted a few differences from modern publications. Firstly, the tune is accredited to Samuel Arnold. I am aware that this is not the case, but I find it noteworthy. Additionally, the text from "Oh say does that..." until "...home of the brave" Is repeated before beginning the next verse or ending the song. This happens for every verse, albeit with different lyrics. This is not an isolated incident, as two music discs played here indicate. If image proof from "Fifth Reader" is required to add this information to the article, I will happily provide it. Heil Kaiser (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

There is another small detail, but I won't dive too far into that unless the changes already mentioned are deemed significant enough to warrant an explanation Heil Kaiser (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Poet

Key is described as an amateur poet. Why is the word "amateur" used? How many American poets in the first half of the 19th century were "professionals"? 2600:6C67:1C00:5F7E:846C:4F3:E288:BA35 (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

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