Talk:The Jitsu Foundation

Syllabus

I removed the listing of techniques on the syllabus, because as far as I'm aware it should be only made available to students upon request, and not published publicly. Whoever added it should probably check with the Tertiary Fellows before uploading it again.

DeejSempai

History

I've some vague memories of TJF history but I can't substantiate any of these - maybe someone else can fill in some blanks and write-up? Rup 23:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe all this information has been added to the main page now Wikiplodder 31 August 2006

Great, thanks! That's very thorough! Rup 10:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This snippet of history is wrong:

The style currently practiced by The Jitsu Foundation[2] traces some of its roots to Riukiu Myura[3], a policeman and later Chief Unarmed Combat instructor at the Tokyo Police Academy, Japan [4]. Myura studied various styles of jujutsu extensively, and also studied Kodokan judo and Shorinji Kempo. He later combined his knowledge with his street-fighting experience from the police, and formed his own hybrid style [5].

The only contact that Brian Graham or Matt Komp had with Myura (opinions differ on the name) was during very infrequent visits that he made to Matt Komp's club in Footscray, Australia. At the time Brian Graham was a kyu grade, and Myura was visiting Australia as part of a Judo tour. The story that Brian used to tell was that he had pretended to be a complete beginner during a seminar with Myura in order to con him, and had thereby gained enough of an opening to throw the visiting judo champion. Myura was apparently gracious, and somewhat admiring of Brian's cunning and gave him a medal he had won at a recent tournament as a way of acknowledging the event.

While there may have been an exchange of knowledge between Myura, Komp and Graham, it cannot be claimed that this is the root of the style. The lineage clearly passes through Komp from his instructors in Germany, Wolfe and Hessermeyer, who appear to have learned their judo & jujitsu skills through contact with Japanese instructors, possibly through military service in the run up to WWII.

The most likely roots ultimately are the Kodokan. A review of turn of the century judo books will indicate many similarities in technique between these texts and techniques taught in the Jitsu Foundation and its offshoots.

As has been stated before there is no connection between Shorinji Kan and Shorinji Kempo, except a similarity in style which is most likely an effect of borrowing from similar sources. - JSJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsj (talk • contribs) 14:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu

This title is rarely used; I can't see it anywhere on the TJF website, they just refer to it as Jitsu.

While not often used, it is the offical Japanese name for the style. It does appear on the TJF web site, you must have not read all the relevant info - see The Jitsu Foundation - what is Jitsu? (accessed 25th July 2007). This has now been added as a reference.

• Nice one, thanks!

Pre-cursor styles and associations

I added the following note last night before I spotted this discussion section of Wikipedia:

Note: Although this version of the history of the Jitsu Foundation is in common use, it is not accurate. Peter's surname was Farrar (not Farrah), and when I spoke to Shihan Matthew Komp he was very clear that there was no link to Shorinji Kempo. Brian Graham used to tell the story of Matt Komp visiting Japan and on being asked to demonstrate his style it was identified as Shorinji Kempo. However, Matt Komp was adamant that they had likened his style to Shorinji Kempo, but that he had never practiced Shorinji Kempo, nor had any of his instructors (Komp's instruction took place in Germany prior to the establishment of Shorinji Kempo by Doshin So in Japan). The reason this link is perpetuated is perhaps that it suited Brian Graham. His particular style did closely match that of Shorinji Kempo, and it gave him a reason to introduce the black robes of Shorinji Kempo as a mark of teaching status in the NSJJA (National Samurai Jiu Jitsu Association). Komp was not a student of Myura, but in fact was taught judo and jiu jitsu by his instructors in Cologne, Hassermayer, and Wolfe who had trained in Japan prior to the Second World War. Komp emigrated to Australia in the 1950s and established a club in Melbourne. Myura was a visitor to the club on occasions. (JSJ)

It would be better to update the text that is already there, but I didn't want to change someone else's text. However, I do think that the errors in the text need to be updated. I trained for many years with Peter Farrar, and I have attempted on several occasions to correct the spelling of his name on many Jitsu Foundation websites. The correct spelling should be easy to verify if you go to a reliable source. I see that the Edinburgh 'jitsu club has the correct spelling. More notably the Jitsu Canada page has the correct spelling (www.jitsucanada.com/style/history.html) and the founder of Jitsu Canada, Andy Dobie, used to be in charge of the UK office when Peter Farrar was still directing the organisation, and so was very used to receiving correspondence, etc. for Peter. I'm not citing these as reliable sources per se, although they are correct in this detail. However, there is official documentation out there if someone wants to take the time to verify the spelling.

I verified the detail of the history as far as possible with Matthew Komp on the few occasions that he visited the UK. He was very clear on the point that he had not trained in Shorinji Kempo, and neither had Brian Graham. Brian was extremely good at acquiring a technique if he thought it effective. There are techniques in the Jitsu Foundation syllabus that are very similar, to some of the Shorinji Kempo juho techniques, but these may just as easily be due to common roots in aikijitsu styles.

I firmly believe that the Komp style of jiu jitsu has its roots in Kodokan Jiu Jitsu (Judo) as it was taught around the beginning of the 20th century. If you can get hold of a copy of 'Judo: Self-taught in pictures' (1952) by Hubert Klinger-Klingerstorff you will see a series of techniques straight out of the original NSJJA/Jitsu Foundation syllabus. The contents page looks nothing like a modern judo book. This is honto judo. Chapter 3 - Breaking a Wrist-Hold, 4 - Breaking a strangle-hold, 5 - Police grips, 6 - Defence against a knife thrust... and so on. The techniques are remarkable, because the so closely follow the main syllabus of the NSJJA, and include arm-locks and wrist-locks. Klinger-Klingerstorff was apparently 2nd Dan and 'Instructor of Judo at the University of Vienna'. There's a similar series of techniques in Self-defence by Judo (1959) M. G. Harvey, MC, and in Jiu Jitsu Complete (1958) by Kiyose Nakae. In contrast, the Juho section of 'What is Shorinji Kempo' 1970 by Doshin So contains a few techniques which would be familiar to students of Komp/Graham/Farrar, but the way that these are performed is wholely different in 'feel'. Those few techniques also appear in the books I've cited from the 1950s, but the 'feel' of the technique in those is far more familiar.

Shihan Komp has said that Akira Miura (or Riukia Myura) did visit his Melbourne dojo on a few occasions. Miura taught a number of judo seminars in Australia, and was supposedly involved in judo training for the Tokyo Police. It is also possible that he trained in Shorinji Kempo, but I have not been able to verify this.

My conclusion is that there is no lineage between Shorinji Kempo and Komp's Jiu Jitsu, or that of the NSJJA/Jitsu Foundation. Yes, it is possible that Brian Graham may have had some exposure to Shorinji Kempo in the UK, and/or that Miura taught some Shorinji Kempo techniques as well as Judo. However, such brief exposure is not enough to justify this as part of the lineage of the style.

Jsj 00:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC) Julian Straker-Jones

It's probably worth me mentioning that Komp corroborates what JSJ explains above in the radio interview I've linked to at the bottom. However, as JSJ was hesitant to edit the words of others, so have I been. Perhaps if JSJ revists he'd like to add it as a reference? For those too impatient to listen to the whole interview, he explains that he was asked to perform a demonstration in Japan, at which point the locals identified it as Shorinji Kempo, although Komp seems more bemused by this, rather than adopting it as truth. DeejSempai 15:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have now incorporated most of JSJ's original comments into the main text while keeping the statement that it was Miura rather than Komp that studied Shorinji Kempo (It would be nice for someone to confirm this long stated fact). Perhaps someone else should check that the new edit fairly represents current knowledge. JSJ's extra comments on the talk page regarding old Judo books and the similarity between old judo, shorinji kempo and TJF jitsu are interesting and could form a new section on the main page titled something like "Similarity with other martial arts" - anyone willing to write it? Wikiplodder 16:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Grade Structure

"TJF has adopted the modern Western practice of a kyu (coloured belt) grade system"

Is this really true or is it a myth? The coloured belts orginate in Japan, although some more traditional martial arts use white belts the colours originated there.

It definitely needs a reliable source.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Kano started it by giving out black belts to senior students, they kyu system i belive was common but coloured rankings come from judo --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 11:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean Kano [[1]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.104.55.242 (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Dan grades

The two grades of second dan are "acting secondary tutor" and "secondary tutor" - not "national secondary tutor". The title of "National Secondary Tutor" has not been used for a number of years - the last person to hold it was either John Hamer or (possibly) Mark McNally - this would certainly have been prior to 2000. Colindente 18:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Balance breaking

"The balance-taking technical aspects of modern jitsu (called kazushi in Japanese) are based on a similar principle to sports style Judo. That is, a uni-directional balance breaking is imposed by a lock or throw and results in Uke hitting the floor and being kept on the floor or "finished" with a strike. This results in a number of self-imposed limitations, most of which centre around electing to grant too much attention to a single attacker. This is in contrast to the multi-directional balance breaking found in older Japanese budo, with its wider options for Tori to navigate, encourage, manipulate and influence a changing tactical space. Two examples suffice."

This isn't very clear, and the examples don't help to clarify, in my opinion. Could the author (or anyone else) be more explicit about what the distinction between uni and multi-directional balance breaking is? The examples given merely point out the limitations of focusing all your attention on one ground opponent, or expecting uke's punch to betray their balance, which are interesting points but seem tangential to the issue of balance breaking (and are points of which instructors are well aware). With two-man attacks there is an emphasis on manipulating and navigating a changing tactical space. One of the major principles is to position the first attacker inbetween tori and the second attacker, this requires a lot of fluidity in taking balance. During a technique balance can shift dynamically, and this is encouraged. For example, tori might try to apply karada gatami (arm lock 2, braces the outside of the elbow against the rib cage), uke may release the lock by stepping round tori, tori can then use this, pivot and turn back in the opposite direction to apply kote gaeshi (wrist lock 1). I'm not sure if this is relevant because I'm not sure what is meant by the distinction. KPsyborg (talk) 11:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

-=-

I've removed these sections of the article.

Uni-directional use of kuzushi: This isn't at all my experience of TJF practices, except for the most elementary of techniques taught to novices. Quite frankly, a vast majority of techniques on the syllabus simply don't work if drawing balance in only a single direction.

Comparisons with traditional jujutsu: If there was a section in the article entitled "Comparisons with traditional jujutsu", these comments may have made more sense. As it is, they felt extraneous to the article. Additionally the comments regarding committed ground restraints aren't strictly true, as at least half of the immobilisations can be applied standing up, one-handed if necessary. The majority of punches thrown in the course of TJF training to my experience do indeed tend to be those where uke has already compromised their balance, but by the authors own admission this isn't always the case (the upper end of the syllabus specifically mentions boxing-style attacks). The original comments were misleading to suggest that 'balance-given' attacks are the only such that are covered.

I would suggest that any comparisons to traditional jujutsu that are re-instated should be in a specific section. I would however question the validity of such comparisons - why not compare with judo, or taijutsu? DeejSempai —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeejSempai (talk • contribs) 13:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Membership numbers

As a response to the deletion request from May 15th I contacted The Jitsu Foundation. They are looking for published membership information. As for now the list of attendees (at the end of the page) of the 2010 (British) National in Sheffield provides some insight: Converting the list to SPSS and doing the freuqencies one finds 681 participants training at 82 different clubs as well as 96 dan grades taking part.
I'll post updated information once I obtain reputable sourced numbers.
Bye, --DrJunge (talk) 13:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Redirect

Hi guys why does the term Jitsu redirect to this article. Surely it should redirect to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu As this article explains the origins of the art and that Jitsu forms part of an alternative spelling of Jujutsu. I feel it should not redirect to an orginisation simply because it uses the term Jitsu within it's name. Is there a specific reason it redirects to here? Other than the fact the org uses the term within their name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.3.249 (talk) 01:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Although the full name is "The Jitsu Foundation", the branding for the style is simply "Jitsu". Basically, there aren't enough options to make a disambiguation page useful. It the same way that "windows" takes you to the page about computer software, not glazing. KroSha (talk) 15:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)