Talk:Ted Healy

Ted Healy's listed birthplace in Wikipedia is inaccurate

Ted Healy was not born in Houston, Texas. He was born in Kaufman, Texas. His parents (and baby Ted) moved to Houston, TX when he was a baby, and thus he always considered Houston his hometown. This is the most likely reason why he apparently stated on his 1917 draft registration that he was born in Houston. HOWEVER, a woman by the name of Kathey Hunt found his birth record in the Birth Record Books in Kaufman, proving he definitely was born in Kaufman, TX. Here is a link to that information: http://www.txgenweb5.org/txkaufman/hofame/nashcel.htm Also, it has been reported in several books and many websites that Ted Healy was born in Kaufman, TX. And one other thing: The Kaufman Herald weekly newspaper - dated December 24th, 1987 - did a big story about about the life of Ted Healy on the 50th anniversary of his death, in which they noted that he was born there (in Kaufman, TX). Yes, the 50th anniversary of his death was 12/21/87, but the newspaper is dated 12/24/87 because it is a weekly paper, not a daily paper. Anyway, being a native Kaufmanite, I saved the article when it originally came out and I still have it in my possession today. When one adds up all the information I provide here, it is obvious Ted Healy was born in Kaufman, TX. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Topgun1234 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Ernest Lee Nash (a/k/a Ted Healy) was born in Houston. An older relative, Charles Nash, was born in Kaufman in 1859. My sources are the WWI draft registration and the 1860 census, which lists Charles Nash's birthplace as Kaufman. Ernest Nash, of course, had not yet been born when that census was taken. Windowshopping (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The citation for Kaufman birth records was not for the 1859 Nash, but for the one this article is about. I'm not changing anything (yet), but my experience tells me that a state birth record trumps a draft registration just about any time. I've found many examples of inaccurate draft registrations, but comparatively very, very few inaccurate state birth records. Comments, anyone else?Monkeyzpop (talk) 06:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion references two persons, Ernest Lee Nash aka Ted Healy, and an older relative Charles Nash. I know that this discussion was concerning the location of his birth, however, I wanted to offer an interesting note. The A&E Biography documentary of the Three Stooges called "The Men Behind the Mayhem" from 1994, stated that Ted Healy was born Charles Ernest Lee Nash. I've seen no other reference to the name Charles Ernest Lee Nash elsewhere, only Ernest Lee Nash, but this is the only place I've also seen the reference to a Charles Nash as well. Could there be a confusion between the identity of these two persons? Just wondering.

Fgoron2000 (talk) 21:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

It has been my experience that draft registration cards and census records are significantly less accurate than vital records kept by states, counties and cities and one often has to do extensive research to get to the truth of a person's true identity and origin. I run into this often as a genealogist. It was common practice for men to falsify their date of birth on draft registration cards in order to decrease the likelihood of being drafted. They didn't have photo I.D.'s in those days and in fact very little was done to verify identity. You basically showed up and registered and gave whatever name and age you wanted and that became your name and age as far as the government was concerned. This is how there were a lot of ludicrous claims of age before modern identification procedures. I have found census records indicating people were over 140 years old. This has proven to be impossible. So go by official state records not what a census taker or draft dodger puts down in later records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.32.59.189 (talk) 15:41, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

More Cause of Death Discussion

Recent edits have been done to the cause of death section, given the lack of corroboration of the single source which implicated Wallace Beery et al. in Healy's death. Those interested may wish to see the talk page of DoctorJoeE, though I wanted to make my comments here instead. (Hopefully, DoctorJoeE does not mind that I have linked him here.)

The corrections and additions I made today were not particularly big. In one instance I removed The Pittsburgh Press as a source because it did not confirm the info about Albert Broccoli, though that info was confirmed in an article from Lewiston Evening Journal, so I simply changed the source. I changed the spelling of the name of Dr. Lamont to "Wyantt", though he is once called Wyland and once Wyatt in articles, but Wyantt seems to be the most common variation. I corrected the title of Evening Independent article used as a source - "Was he murdered?" was a caption, not the title of the article. Also, I added info on Man Mountain Dean per that Pittsburgh Press article already linked as a source. Since I don't edit much on Wikipedia any more, I can only hope I have formatted these correctly. Clockster (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional content & references; I've streamlined it a bit. The article clearly needs a lot more work, and I plan to get to it when I can. (Writing deadlines await in the real world, unfortunately.) As for the discussion on my talk page, it's mostly incoherent attacks on me that I should never have allowed to continue -- my apologies for feeding the trolls, it won't happen again -- but anyone is free to have a look if they wish. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 15:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it looks good and all that can be done with what's available online has been done. Taking the info from The Fixers out will probably end up being for the best, though more work digging into Fleming's claims will decide that for sure. Thanks. 70.179.131.224 (talk) 03:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I apparently was signed out when I made the above comment, sorry. I am concerned about the Broccoli info because UP apparently reported both that Albert Broccoli only pushed Healy after Healy attacked him, but then later in the day reported he was "engaged in a fist fight" with Healy. Is it reasonable to assume that "engaged" meant the same as "pushed"? Has anyone found any sources to explain the difference between the two UP accounts? Clockster (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The source (Oxnard Daily Courier) specifically reported that he "admitted he engaged in a fist fight with Healy", and we need to report it exactly as the source reported it -- perhaps as a direct quote, for clarity. A "fist fight" generally implies the use of fists -- and while the other source does say that Broccoli claimed that Healy did all the punching and he just pushed Healy away, we have included that source as well. For us to attempt to resolve those two reports would violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, IMHO. Pending the location of other sources (and I'm still digging), we'll have to leave it that the sources conflict. Meanwhile, I took out the "mobster" descriptor on DiCicco but someone put it back in; unless there is an objection I'd like to remove it again, since it's an allegation, and non-neutral, and irrelevant in this context because we don't have any corroboration that he was even present. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 17:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I would like to re-add the one-line note about his son. Evidently the description with link to the obituary was removed. It's certainly relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Windowshopping (talk • contribs) 02:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know which note you are referring to, but if it was sourced, and you believe it was relevant, go right ahead. If the editor who removed it disagrees, I'm sure we will hear from him/her. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 02:35, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Cause of death 2015

It appears one editor is protecting their preferred version of this article over a span of multiple years. The edits I introduced were not sourced to the Fleming book, but to an article in Empire Magazine. There is more than one source that covers this. Furthermore, the Lewiston source conflicts with the Empire Magazine source. Kindzmarauli (talk) 14:00, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Funny how accusations of WP:OWN always get thrown around in such situations. The "version" you refer to was agreed upon by consensus a couple of years ago, after a heated discussion, some of which is above, and the rest of which is in my talk page archive. You should read the multi-part article by LA Times reporter Larry Harnisch entitled "Wikipedia, Murder & Myth", which begins here. It discusses the Healy case at length, and toward the end, references the discussion that took place here. (Much of his criticism about how easy it is to publish unsubstantiated facts on WP is unfair, of course, but some is not.) Another helpful multi-part reference, also by Harnisch, entitled "The Death of Ted Healy", begins here.

After reading that information, I think you will appreciate that there are multiple issues with the content in question. The article in Empire (a British movie fan magazine) cites no sources, but much of it was lifted practically verbatim from the Fleming book. I initially argued for inclusion of some of the Fleming material, but others pointed out that Fleming's (self-published) book cited no sources other than the equally unsubstantiated Forrester book, and much of it is in direct conflict with newspaper reports published immediately after his death. For example, there is nothing in any of the contemporaneous news stories to indicate that DiCicco was even present at the Trocadero, and thus no evidence that he "picked a fight" with Healy. Another example: I know of no contemporaneous documentation that Healy was autopsied after he was embalmed -- the autopsy report certainly doesn't say that, and with a police investigation ongoing, his body would not have been released for embalming until an autopsy had been performed. And even if it was—in clear violation of the law—the "organs soaked in alcohol" reference is ridiculous, since no pathologist would ever use that sort of lay language, and cadavers are embalmed in formalin, not alcohol.

I still hope to rewrite this article completely someday, but I haven't found sufficient reliable sourcing to do so. Meanwhile I have no desire to re-argue its present content. You are welcome to take on those folks if you wish -- but read the Harnisch material first, so you'll know what you're up against. When I get time I'm going to take out the "organs soaked in alcohol" thing, for the reasons I gave, and make a few miscellaneous copy edits before the vultures can descend. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 16:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

There's a biography of Healy that came out last December. I have it on my Amazon wish list. Kindzmarauli (talk) 14:16, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

That would be Cassara's book; I'm reading it now. Numerous grammatical mistakes, but so far I haven't found any reason to question the accuracy of the content itself. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 16:18, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't spoil it for me. :) What about books on the Stooges themselves? There must be a great deal out there and I imagine they'd discuss Healy to some degree. What were the issues with the Fleming book anyway (I haven't read it)? I think I'll at least work on cleaning up the reference formatting for now. Kindzmarauli (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are many Stooge books, probably too many. My favorites are I Stooged to Conquer, which is Mo's memoir, and one about Larry Fine called The Stooge in the Middle. I've gone through most of them (except The Three Stooges Cookbook, which didn't look promising as a source), and there is surprisingly little useful information in them about Healy. I was able to extract one quote from Mo's book for the article, but that's about it. There's a relatively new one called The Complete Three Stooges that I have, but haven't gotten to yet -- it's on my list. (So many books, so little time.)

The general objection to Fleming's book is that he made all sorts of outrageous allegations, citing only "anonymous sources", or his own memory. For example, he accused Wallace Beery, Cubby Broccoli, and Pat DiCicco (who was Broccoli's cousin) of beating Ted Healy to death in the Trocadero parking lot, and that MGM hushed up the whole thing, because Beery was one of its most valuable assets. In fact, as Harnisch and others have shown, everyone endorsed the conclusion of the coroner, based on the autopsy, including the police, Healy’s widow, his sister, his manager, and eventually the DA. WP frowns on accusing people (even dead people) of murder without solid supporting evidence -- usually a conviction in court -- certainly not self-published hearsay. Cheers, DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 17:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

It's apparently "Four Cohans Opera House", not 4 Cohan's.

Pretty much my topic line. 4 Cohan's is not found on Wikipedia, but Four Cohans is. 173.21.38.106 (talk) 05:34, 12 June 2023 (UTC)