Talk:Swedish jarls

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Unverified jarls[edit]

underage: Jon Sverksersson, the future John I of Sweden, was named riksjarl upon the death of his maternal grandfather Birger, by the boy's father, king Sverker II
???Sune Folkesson probably never jarl

The future Magnus III of Sweden was the Duke of Sweden after his father (with essentially the powers of hitherto riksjarl); and lands in for example Södermanland, in kingdom's nucleus; until he deposed his elder brother Valdemar I of Sweden and himself became king
Eric Birgerson, next brother of Magnus III, was elevated Duke as Magnus' successor. Eric held lands for example in the then southern borders of Sweden, and for that reason he has in some sources dubbed as Duke of Småland.
Benedict Birgersson, bishop of Linköping, youngest brother of Magnus III, was elevated Duke after Eric's death. He is mentioned as the first Duke of Finland.
afterwards, there were even several simultaneous dukes of the royal families of Sweden.

I removed the list above from the articles in order to replace it with sourced material. Please provide references before putting it back.
/ Mats Halldin (talk) 11:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Remove, looks strange or misunderstood throughout. --Drieakko 11:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ulf Fase[edit]

Ulf Fase's year of death 1240 seems unconventional, as most sources put that in 1247. Are there some recent studies to back the new dating? --Drieakko 11:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, Lindström says Ulf Fase was Jarl "1220?-? and 1231-1240" (p 267) and "died 1248 ... Swedish jarl, probably married to the daughter of Folke jarl" (p 272).

/ Mats Halldin (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Normally Ulf Fase is reported to have died as the jarl. Is Sweden today regarded to have been without a jarl during 1240-1248? --Drieakko 12:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, I just cited the book. Its possible the year 1240 on page 267 is just a typo. On page 115, it says "Jarls appearing between 1146-1266 are strong and powerful leaders next [in rank] to the king, such as Birger Brosa (1174-1202), or Ulf Fase (no later than 1231-1247)." On page 153: "We know Birger jarl during that time (c. 1247) started to take over the function of jarl from his coussin Ulf Fase, who probably was old and frail and died the following year". Page 194: "[Birger jarl] couldn't get the title of jarl before is his cousin Ulf Fase died 1248."

/ Mats Halldin (talk) 13:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

House of Munsö[edit]

I removed the reference to House of Munsö from the section "Jarls of Skåne". User:Drieakko put it back in, without providing a credible source. Please provide one. /Pieter Kuiper 17:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a name, "House of Munsö", like other early Swedish family names, is a late invention just to sort family ties out, since family names were not used back then. Ulf's relation to that family is not controversial information. Regarding Talk:House of Munsö, your motives to remove all references to House of Munsö from Wikipedia are dubious. --Drieakko 17:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

House of Munsö is a misnomer. Anyway, you did not provide a reference to a credible modern historian connecting Ulf to any family. /Pieter Kuiper 17:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is a similar misnomer than House of Stenkil, House of Bjelbo, House of Eric and so on. I don't understand your motivation here. Ulf's family ties are referenced in his own article. --Drieakko 20:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for a reference to a credible modern historian, which Nordisk Familjebok is not. It is doubtful that you will find any modern source affirming Ulf's family ties. Is their any contemporary mention of this jarl at all? One thing is certain: any ties to Munsö or to Björn are the stuff of Icelandic fairy tales and of some molding antiquarian's fantasies. /Pieter Kuiper 21:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see there a problem for Wikipedia to refer to people or events that are described in Icelandic sagas, as long as the credibility of the sources is attested. Modern historians have little to say about such sources because they have been so intensively covered in earlier works and there is not much that any new research could add to the picture. Certainly some historians dismiss saga sources intentionally, but that is just a POV. --Drieakko 21:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is this article "jarl in Sweden" supposed to be about history, or should I put the in-universe tag on it? /Pieter Kuiper 21:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You should concentrate your skepticism on the credibility of the saga sources to the article saga instead of repeating the same discussion in article's referring to them. --Drieakko 05:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scania and Normandy[edit]

Why are Earls of Scania and Normandy included in this list? Neither were Swedish titles. --Tokle (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]