Talk:Suraj Mal

Data missing

A lot of data related to the chronology of the life of Suraj Mal is missing or has been deleted, I hope the bots bring back or reconfigure once again the data that was removed from this article. 00:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)\\~~\\\\Fjgdh5 (talk)\

WP:INDIA Banner/Rajasthan workgroup Addition

Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Rajasthan workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Rajasthan or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- TinuCherian ^{(Wanna Talk?)} - 09:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

EDIT, EDIT, EDIT

If there is any article that needs editing, then it has to be this article. It is so loooooooong. Someone please do the needful. ThanksKesangh (talk)

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File:Maharaja Surajmal.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Dwivedi as a source

I've raised a concern regarding using G. C. Dwivedi as a source - see this. - Sitush (talk) 14:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Let us do not AUTO-discount sources on Jat history

We can not AUTO-ASSUME a JAT writer to be biased. Sources and citation and work must be judged based on merit, not based on ASSUMPTIONS and BIASES (western sources are better than Indian sources, non-jat sources are better than jat sources, western journals are better than Indian sources, western degrees are better than indian degrees, western rating systems are better than indian systems, majoritarian systems/views are more valid than new-published views, etc...)

They Are Good enough sources, unless specifically refuted

Both, Dr Vir Singh,PhD and Dr Dwivedi, PhD, are credible enough to be included as valid sources (their individual pieces of work could be subject to scrutiny): 1. Both are trained to the high (PhD) level of scientific methods of inquiry. 2. Both have long experience as professional academicians, historians and researchers. 3. Both are published authors, books as well as journals. 4. They also supervised several PhD research scholars. 5. Both headed respected ACADEMIC RESEARCH CENTERS focused on history research.

Their published work can not be discounted based on biases, unless their work is refuted with a 3rd party published secondary sources of similar or better repute/credentials.

=Dr. Vir Singh, PhD

Besides, a lot of Indian Indian communities do not have tradition of written history but they have long tradition of oral history, in recent decades a lot of historians have taken pains to study those oral histories and verify as much possible using other published/-traditional-academic sources. Dr. Vir Singh, seems is not an arm chair writer, he is trained in scientific methods of inquiry (he is a PhD) and he has supervised/examined many PhDs himself. That establish his credentials.

Over-reliance on MAJORITARIAN Macaulian or marxist type of sources is also not a BALANCED approach. All path-breaking or new research is initially NOT MAINSTREAM or cited as widely in the BEGINNING, it takes time for them to gain prominence, so we go by wiki guidelines that PUBLISHED work is GENERALLY acceptable, specially if it is from people who have been trained in scientific methods of inquiry and from the RESEARCH CENTERS that are specifically focused on researching a specific area. Dr. Vir Singh and his center, pass this criteria.

This should not be used as a sole criteria to judge the prominence (how frequently they are cited in WESTERN sources or what rating do they carry in western sources alone).

Also, he is not an ordinary director of Maharaja Surajmal to run/manage the Jat educ society. He is the Director of Maharaja Surajmal RESEARCH AND PUBLICATION division, which means his and his department's focus is RESEARCH and then PUBLISH it, to bring it to prominence.

Dwivedi, but is not a JAT gotra, Dwivedi is Brahman caste. So not correct to assume he is JAT. Dr. Dwivedi is a PhD and was head of the History dept of Kashi university (one of the early university in India, founde din 1921), that is credible enough, for both Dr Vir Singh and Dr Dwivedi are BETTER TRAINED (than some of the sources that are already there in the Jat articles on wikipedia) in scientific methods of inquiry and have headed CENTERS FOR RESEARCH IN TO HISTORY on the topics (Jat) they wrote their books and journal articles.

And, not right to discount a source merely because they are Jat. To give some perspective, most of the stuff we know about British Raj and Mughals are written by their employees and paid-writers, by that standard we then need to SCRAP bulk of the articles on those topics on wiki? WE GO BY WHAT WE HAVE and then work from there. We factor in RESEARCH and PUBLISHED work by Dr. VIr SINGH and Dwivedi, others can uncover more sources to either confirm or refute.

... btw, I found these details about Dr. Vir Singh. may be you can contact him, not sure how current these contact details are.

Dr. Vir Singh, PhD

Native Village : Village & PO Sarangpur, Dist. Bulandshahr (UP) Permanent Address : E-177 PandavNagar, Delhi-110091 Official Address : Director, Maharaja Surajmal Centre for Research & Publication, C-4, Janak Puri,New Delhi-110058

Contact Number : 22753070 (R), 25528116,25528117(0)

Qualification & Experience : M.A. (Agra University), Ph.D. (Meerut University)

In his 40 years of teaching experience he has been examiner of B.A., B.A. (Hons), M.A. and Ph.D. in different Universities. .......

Dr. Girish Chandra Dwivedi, PhD, Head of History Dept

Late Professor Girish Chandra Dwivedi born on 24th December 1938, did his Post Graduation from Department of Medieval Modern History, University of Allahabad. He completed his Ph.D. under the supervision of Late Prof. Ishwari Prasad, from Agra University. He was appointed as Lecturer in Kashi Vidyapeeth, Varansi, in 1962.

Professor Dwivedi died on 27th May 1979 as Professor and Head of Department of History and Dean of Students Welfare Mahatma Gandhi Kashi Vidyapith. Dr. Dwivedi’s research articles have been published in several Journals.Of special interest is his research paper published in Journal of Indian History, 1970, p.377 ff.

---

Cheers!
Dr. V. Dhillon, PhD (Uni. South Australia) Vdhillon (talk) 09:14, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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And still I find myself reverting people who attempt to reinstate copyvios of unreliable sources etc. - Sitush (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Areas under the rule of Suraj Mal

I have checked multiple scholarly sources and all of them state more or less same thing regarding the extent of Jat kingdom under Suraj Mal. Here are some of them:

• Chaudhary (1977):

During his regime the Jāt State reached its highest extent. Besides the original Bharatpur principality, it embraced the districts of Āgra, Dholpur, Mainpuri, Hathras, Aligarh, Etawa, Mirat, Rohtak, Farrukhnagar, Mewāt, Rewari, Gurgaon and Mathurā. Its annual revenue was one hundred and seventy-five lakhs of rupees, whereas the expenditure was sixty to sixty-five lakhs, and he left a reserve fund of ten crores, inherited and acquired taken together. At the time of his death his army consisted mainly of 15,000 cavalry and 25,000 infantry, besides fort garrisons.¹³⁵ His cavalry, in particular, was highly spoken of by Sayyid Ghulam Husain.¹³⁶

• Datta (1967)

...Sūraj Mal, who has been described by a contemporary historian as “the Plato of the Jāt tribe” and by a modern writer as the “Jāt Ulysses”, because of his “political sagacity, steady intellect and clear vision”, extended the authority of the Bharatpur kingdom over the districts of Āgra, Dholpur, Mainpuri, Hāthrās, Ālīgarh, Etāwah, Meerut, Rohtak, Farrukhnagar, Mewāt, Rewārī, Gurgāon and Muttrā.

• Hooja (2006):

Under Suraj Mal, the authority of Bharatpur, would in time, encompass the Gangetic Doab districts of Agra, Dholpur, Mainpuri, Hathras, Aligarh, Etawah, Meerut, Rohtak, Farrukhnagar, Mewat, Rewari, Gurgaon and Mathura.

• Wadley (2004):

Under Suraj Mal, Jat rule extended over the present-day districts of Agra, Mathura, Bharatpur, Dholpur, Alwar, Gurgaon, Rohtak, Meerut, Bulandshahr, Aligarh, Hathras, Etah, and Mainpuri, precisely the districts where Dhola is most popular even today.

• Entwistle (1987):

At the time of his death his domain extended over the present districts of Agra, Mathura, Bharatpur, Dholpur, Alwar, Gurgaon, Rohtak, Meerut, Bulandshahr, Aligarh, Hathras, Etah, and Mainpuri. The Jats remained in control of Agra for several years, giving the Hindus a chance to turn the tables on the Muslims. Public manifestations of Islam were suppressed, butchers' shops were closed, slaughter of animals was prohibited, and the great mosque was used as a market place.

• Sarkar (1976):

Bounded by Delhi subah in the north, Agra subah (in the territory of Jaipur) in the west, the Chambal in the south and the Ganges in the east, the Jat kingdom of Bharatpur (100 kos by 70 kos) included the districts of Agra, Dholpur, Mainpuri, Hathras, Aligarh, Etah, Meerut, Rohtak, Farrukhnagar, Mewat, Rewari, Gurgaon and Mathura. It was well cultivated and generally peaceful, yielding a revenue of 175 lakhs of rupees a year. His army consisted of 5000 horses, 60 elephants, 15,000 cavalry, 25,000 infantry (besides others in forts), more than 300 cannon pieces and proportionate munition.

At present, Farrukhnagar is a sub-district of Gurgaon district: [1]. So the mention of Gurgaon district will take care of it. But the main difference between the sources is regarding Bulandshahr district. As the better sources aren't mentioning it, I am not adding it to the article for now. - NitinMlk (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Surajmal only ruled bharatpur, why other regions are added without any information

Edit request: please remove this paragraph which has no basis "Under him, the Jat rule covered the present-day districts of Agra, Aligarh, Bharatpur, Dholpur, Etawa, Gurgaon, Hathras, Mainpuri, Mathura, Mewat, Meerut, Rewari, and Rohtak.[2]" Sps999 (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2022

Earlier only Gori clan was written with Maharani Kishori, the spouse of Surajmal. Later addition of Gori clan of rajput caste was done 7 months ago by one ip, see here [2]. He provided some obscure news article source of a news paper which didn't mention any Gori clan. While here I am giving sources of historians. The first one is renowned historian Jadunath Sarkar, here is archive.org link of his book fall of mughal empire Vol. 2, [3] on page no. 453, he mentions that she belonged to Gori caste, which is of course a distinct caste and not a clan of any caste. Another book annals and antiquities of Rajasthan, edited by William Crooke in 1920 and published by Oxford University Press mentions her caste as Kurmi on page no 1359. Here is the archive.org link of the book [4]

Hence I propose that either it should be mentioned that Maharani Kishori belonged to either Gori or Kurmi castes or her caste should not be mentioned at all. For change, I am giving both version in source format, whichever editor feel is more appropriate can be inserted.

From this

"| spouse = Maharani Kishori
Rani Gauri of the gori(Rajput) clan(Rajput Queen)"

to this

"| spouse = Maharani Kishori
Rani Gauri of the either Gori or Kurmi caste

Or this

"| spouse = Maharani Kishori
Rani Gauri"

" Hiensrt (talk) 10:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Hiensrt, regarding Crooke's source provided by you, the Raj-era sources of British officers have long been discarded on this project. They are considered as primary sources and are left for modern scholars to deal with them. The relevant details and discussion links about them and other types of unreliable sources are available at WP:RAJ, which sums up this project's consensus regarding the sourcing of South Asian caste/history-related details.

As far as the Sarkar's source is concerned, it was published during the Raj era in 1934. More than anything else, it is outdated now, just like the other works from that era. To give you an example, when Sarkar authored the source mentioned by you, he had access to mainly Father Francis Xavier Wendel's work, who was a spy prone to exaggerate things. But more than two decades after publishing that source, Sarkar himself translated and published the work of Fransoo in a Journal in 1955. Note that Sarkar mentioned Fransoo's work as a "much more valuable history" of Bharatpur's Jat dynasty in comparison to Wendel's work. And that translated article does mention the Rani Gauri's caste as Gori Rajput. The valuable works of Fransoo and others are incorporated in modern sources authored by the subject experts of the likes of Dr. Dwivedi, but they are missing from the Raj-era sources of the likes of Sarkar, simply because that material was not available in that era. The point I want to make is that Sarkar did his best with the material available to him around one century ago, but his work is outdated now. So please always cite post-Raj era sources.

Finally, newspapers are not reliable for historical facts. In fact, the source in question mentions Gauri as merely Rajput, rather than a Rajput queen. So I will remove the newspaper article mentioned by you as well as the unsourced claim of "Rajput Queen". But note that the clan of Rani Gauri is reliably-sourced. It obviously doesn't belong to the infobox, although it can be mentioned in the article's body. So I will remove the Gauri's clan from the infobox as well. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:28, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

References

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:56, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

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