Talk:Summer in the City (song)

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IP comment[edit]

The Quiny Jones version perhaps most famously sampled by The Pharcyde on Passing Me By. 202.126.106.54 01:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

converse commercial[edit]

is this the same one used in the converse century commercial? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.28.58.242 (talk) 18:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New York City Tourism TV Commerical from 1970s[edit]

Wasn't a version of this song featured in a New York City, "Summer in the City" TV ad from the late 1970s? I have memories of the TV ad but can't find it online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.240.174 (talk) 12:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IP comment[edit]

There is a song Summer In The City by the Manhattans on CBS records in UK. Relesaed in 1974 . It is NOT a cover.

Use of a Hohner Pianet and Vox Continental[edit]

It says that the electric piano is a Hohner Pianet and the organ is a Vox Continental and I see this needs to be cited. The song's signature keyboard part sounds like a Pianet and the Vox Continental appears in the promotional video. The use of a Hohner Pianet should be apparent to any keyboardist who listens to the recording. I don't play any instruments myself but I know what a Pianet sounds like after having heard so many Beatles songs with this instrument (You Like Me Too Much, Tell Me What You See, The Night Before, Think for Yourself, Getting Better, I Am the Walrus and Revolution) and it sounds the same in this song as it does in the Beatles songs with this instrument. I don't see why that statement would have to be cited. I would like for someone else to explain why that claim needs to be cited.--Kevjgav (talk) 05:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Music concréte[edit]

This is a pop song that utilizes the techniqes of Music concrete, not an example of the genre. Tapered (talk) 06:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Summer in the City (The Lovin' Spoonful song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ojorojo (talk · contribs) 16:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'll review this. It's an interesting choice. I think you know what to expect from last time (mostly MOS tweaks, some suggestions to consider, etc.) —Ojorojo (talk) 16:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox[edit]

Resolved
  • |released= {{Start date}} is usually used for this parameter.
    Done.
  • |studio= New York City is more correct and less ambiguous.
    Done.
  • |genre= Although it's only in the ref, it would probably be better not to use <br /> (WP:ACCESS problems). Also, it's best to be consistent with the AllMusic date format (mdy is used for the rest of the article).
    Done.

Lead[edit]

Resolved

Will address after the rest is reviewed.

  • first and only to reach No. 1 – As mentioned before.
  • Fixed.
  • The Lovin' Spoonful recorded "Summer in the City" in two sessions at Columbia Studios in New York in March 1966. Artie Schroeck performed as a session musician on a Wurlitzer electric piano. After the band expressed a desire for a larger drum sound, engineer Roy Halee generated extra reverb by separating a microphone and speaker across eight floors in a metal staircase, an effect he later repeated on Simon & Garfunkel's 1969 single "The Boxer".  – I think there is too much detail here. I would leave this out or trim it significantly (maybe just mention Columbia Studios with Halee).
  • such as the Pharcyde – Is their use of a sample noteworthy enough for the lead? Williams and Barker only list Jones' sample and don't actually discuss it from the bits I read (maybe not even enough for the "other versions" section).
  • Yeah, that's fair. I've cut it from the lead. I think it still warrants an inclusion in the other versions section since it seems to be the most noteworthy of samples, and I'd wouldn't want it say "many hip hop artists have sampled it", but then remain silent regarding any examples.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC) Tkbrett (✉) 21:24, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Background and composition[edit]

Resolved
  • in quick succession over a period of six months – This is somewhat repetitious, "over six months" may be sufficient.
  • Fixed.
  • and taped by – The ref uses this, but maybe clarify it as an informal, rough, or "demo" recording, so unfamiliar readers won't think it was further along.
  • Changed "taped" to "informally taped".
  • hit-the-road-Jack chord sequence – I don't have access to the ref, but the Percy Mayfield/Ray Charles song "Hit the Road Jack" uses this progression (Unterberger also mentions the Ventures' "Walk, Don't Run"[1], which has its own history) Some mention would be helpful.
  • He doesn't Mayfield and Charles by name, so I've simply piped "hit-the-road-Jack" to Hit the Road Jack. Here's the relevant NYTimes paragraph: John Sebastian, working on an old Wurlitzer pianette for the keyboard sounds, wanted to take that and build in contrast and tension. “I was going for the scary, minor chord, hit-the-road-Jack chord sequence that doesn’t warn you of what’s coming in the chorus.” The band’s bassist, Steve Boone, had noodled around with a staccato bridge, to which was added the traffic and drill sounds, and all three got writing credits for the song.
  • Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain – It's not clear what from this Sebastian is comparing. I don't know the piece, but a snippet does sound ominous/foreboding, if that's what he is referring to (he doesn't mention "Hit the Road Jack", which is more on-point IMO.
  • That tension is what he's referring to, saying "I thought I could create something that's tense like that and then it would open up into my brother's chorus". I've tweak the wording to make this comparison clearer.
  • a riff session player Artie Schroeck played – Again, it's not clear from the ref. Is this the piano chords that are played over the descending progression?
  • I'm not entirely sure which part it is from the various sources, but it seems clear they mean part of the riff in the verse, not the bridge.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics and music[edit]

Resolved
  • thrice-played ♭scale degree 6–scale degree 5 descent – "Thrice" is regarded as archaic in the U.S. Also, maybe explain and link it for readers unfamiliar with the notation: "The song opens with two descending notes (a flattened or minor sixth followed by a perfect fifth degrees of a minor scale) played three times. This intro is played in octaves by the lead guitar, bass and Hohner Pianet."
  • Yes, that's much clearer ("degree" should be singular though? Unless I'm reading it wrong)
  • "[5] all around, [7] people lookin' [2] half dead" – Maybe add "as noted by Everett", so the reader knows it's his style of notation.
  • Done.
  • the bridge section is a major mode, suggestive of the "different world" of the night described in the lyrics – This seems to describe the chorus part with lyrics (what Everett says "ought to be called the bridge"). Boone's "jazzy figure" (what he calls the bridge, starting ~1:10); he talks about "putting city noises", which come in during the shift after the lyrics. Everett seems to call this an instrumental coda. Or?
  • Ah, you're right, this makes much more sense when listening – the terminology of what "ought to be called the bridge" versus what the band calls the bridge was confusing me. I don't think he terms the city noises part an instrumental coda though, but would instead call it "the first break", since he writes "a second break (1:59+) [leads] into an instrumental coda ..." So I think that means 1:09 to 1:19 is the first break, and 1:59 to 2:09 is the second break, with the instrumental coda going 2:09+.
  • Yes, "break" would have been clearer for Boone's parts, with bridge/chorus for "At night it's a different world". I don't want to belabor the point, but maybe mention him "before a second break (Boone's "jazzy figure") transitions to an instrumental coda" in case readers don't make the connection. Up to you.
  • I think it's important to clarify it, so I've reworded it to specify it was Boone's contribution. Tkbrett (✉) 20:14, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC) —Ojorojo (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Recording[edit]

Resolved
  • loud crash caused by a kicked Fender amp – Small point, but it's actually the spring reverb in the amps that can cause this when jostled. Since Richards/Erik doesn't specify a model or amp, it could be the stand-alone Fender Reverb Unit. Since it's unknown, maybe replace "amp" with "reverb" and link to Reverb effect#Spring reverb. The rest looks good.
  • Ah, I see. I'm glad you have technical knowledge here because this was completely lost on me. Should "reverb" be capitalized? That's what the source does: Erik: They were gonna kick the Fender Reverb to create a loud bang.
  • Depending on the amp volume, it could startle those unfamiliar with the noise (as you paraphrased, actually more of a crash than a bang). I think that capitalizing "Reverb" implies a model name, whereas the lower case doesn't. No big deal, up to you.

Release and commercial performance[edit]

Resolved
  • from #21 to #7 – There's a mix of "number" and "#" and numeral verses word from here on. It's better to be consistent and "#" shouldn't be used in articles, {{Numero|21}} produces No. 21.
  • Done.
  • There are a couple more in "Retrospective assessments".
  • Fixed.
  • first and only number one – First is unnecessary, if it was their only one.
  • Fixed.
  • Sebastian contended the band ought – This sentence could be broken up. Maybe "... that sounded too similar.[43] However, Boone worried the return to a softer sound would alienate the band's new fans.[16][43] Later he remarked, "I wonder how ..."
  • Done.

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary reviews[edit]

Resolved
  • Melody Maker wrote – FYI only, I've seen some objection to this construction; only a person writes, rather than a magazine. Up to you.
  • Changed to "Melody Maker's reviewer".
  • based around oldies due to the poor quality of new music – Ha! Maybe that's why a year later listeners were switching to FM.
  • Yeah, I wish the guy fleshed it out a bit more, since there was great stuff coming out in early '66 that didn't sound that different ("19th Nervous Breakdown", "Substitute", "Monday, Monday"), but maybe the weirder sounds on "Paperback Writer" and "Mother's Little Helper" sounded pretty lame over AM.
  • a hip and jazzy swing – ?!? Undoubtedly, a hip and jazzy guy. The rest looks good.

Retrospective assessments[edit]

Resolved

Nice, very comprehensive section.

  • amongst others, judgement – "Among" and "judgment" in U.S.
  • Fixed.
  • the use of effects as skillful and anticipatory of those heard on the Beatles' 1967 album – "Yellow Submarine" came out a month later and uses machine noises during a break, although I don't know if anyone has made the connection.
  • Yeah, that's what I thought of first, but no author I've read makes the comparison. Interestingly, both songs were recorded before either had been released – "Summer in the City" in March and released in July, "Yellow Submarine" in May–June before coming out in August – so it seems the idea to use effects arose independently. John and George saw the Lovin' Spoonful play in London in April, so maybe they talked about it then, but none of the sources that discuss this interaction mention this.

—Ojorojo (talk) 17:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other versions[edit]

Resolved
  • numerous artists, including – I don't have access to the refs, but is there something you can say about these (maybe "by artists diverse as" or "in a variety of styles")?
  • Neither source mentions the diverse styles. I did find some more reviews of B.B. King's version though, so I've thrown them in.
  • In his song review, Unterberger includes "It also served as the theme song for the acclaimed German filmmaker Wim Wenders's first feature film of the same name, playing as the soundtrack to an incongruous but memorable scene in which the main character walks on a brutally cold day, surrounded by snow" and the Summer in the City article also implies that Wenders was influenced by the song. Up to you if you think it's noteworthy.
  • Yeah, seems worth a mention. I've also included a bit on how the song is still used in shows, movies and commercials.

So far so good. I hope to finish tomorrow. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Charts and certifications[edit]

Resolved

Long lists of chart stats seem contrary to WP:NOTEVERYTHING (why not just include the English-speaking countries plus "it reached the top 10 in 10 other countries" in the "Release and commercial performance" section?) Also, separate boxes for the three Year-end and two Certifications entries seems advised against MOS:NO-TABLES and MOS:OVERSECTION. But I guess that's what people expect.

  • Fair enough, but I suppose its a bigger topic than this GAN. For what it's worth, FAs "Hey Jude" and "Something" use this formatting.
  • It's become the standard, but I bring it up from time to time. Here it's not too bad, but some articles are way overloaded, IMO (WP:PROPORTION).
  • Chart tables – I've seen these formatted to meet MOS:DTAB (table captions and scopes of headers).
  • MOS:ACCESS seems to be ignored a lot of times, so I'm glad you mentioned this one. Does what I did look right?
  • There are a couple of different ways to do it, but I added scope="row" (one of DTAB basics).
  • New Zealand – If you're curious, there's a current RfC on this.
  • Thanks. I'll have a look. For the moment, I'll leave it up until there's a clear consensus on whether to keep or remove.
  • Norwegian – The original chart organizations are used for most of your entries. VG-lista also has its own archive data for the single, but I'm not sure about the "Remastered" tag.[2] Up to you.
  • For some reason, some of the templates are only set up for the republished/archive sites.
  • Philippines – A problem I came across in using BB's "Hits of the World" is that sometimes it doesn't specify where it got the info. Also the same countries are not always listed every week, so it might skip the week(s) where a single reached a higher position. I haven't checked other weeks, but I think it's suspicious that all the entries for the Philippines are English-titled songs and it doesn't identify "Courtesy of X". Up to you.
  • Yeah, that's fair. I've removed it.
  • Removed.
  • US Billboard year end – WP:BILLBOARDCHARTS includes "As with all record charts, you should first try to source each chart directly from the Billboard.com website." I'd use the actual BB issue, as per your talk page comment.
  • 36 – Isn't it 35?
  • Sounds good. Also, great catch! Thank you.

Personnel[edit]

Resolved

All are already mentioned and linked in the prose, so this section isn't really needed. It's only recommended for albums, as per WP:PERSONNEL, but some people like it for songs too. Up to you.

I remember you mentioned this preference during your review of "I'm Down". I find that I generally like to include it for songs when I have the sources to cite it, but it can get trickier where sources are sparse. I've been looking into writing song articles for the Kinks, but there's a serious dearth of good literature regarding that band. So with "Big Sky", I don't see any need to include an incomplete personnel section, but here, where I have more than a few reliable sources, I think it's worth including.
Yes, I remember now. I bring it up from time to time, because some people think a separate section is required or recommended, when it isn't.

Citations[edit]

I did spot checks on about 1/5 of these and they check out.

Bibliography[edit]

Resolved

For the location parameters for lesser-known cities (New Haven, Denton, Lanham, Santa Barbara, Montclair, Austin), it may be helpful to include their states (common practice in the U.S.) Also, when the city is included in the wok or publisher name, it's not necessary to repeat it (Oxford University, Chicago Press Review, Cambridge University Press), unless you think it's ambiguous.

Added US states to location. I agree it makes sense regarding avoiding redundant locations, so I've changed those as well.
State abbreviations shouldn't be used in articles (MOS:POSTABBR), so I changed them while doing the DTAB fixes. For well-known cities like New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and a couple of others, it's not necessary.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)—Ojorojo (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria[edit]

For the details, see above.

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Another well-done article. It tells the reader a lot about the music. Keep it up. —Ojorojo (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the very thorough review Ojorojo. I especially appreciate your eye to detail with getting the composition parts right. Tkbrett (✉) 00:39, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 19:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Summer in the City (The Lovin' Spoonful song) → Summer in the City (song) – The only article for a song with this title, per WP:SONGDAB. Tree Critter (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with proposed change, if only because of the significant international stature of the song. - JGabbard (talk) 04:32, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Proper disambiguation for the subject according to WP:SONGDAB--Yaksar (let's chat) 06:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support unless others are notable. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: while researching for that expansion of this article, I did not run across a notable song with the same title. Tkbrett (✉) 12:03, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

B-sides[edit]

Hello: It's not unusual for singles released in various countries to have different B-sides. According to what is shown in the discogs links, Kama Sutra used "Butchie's Tune" in the U.S., Japan, Australia, and New Zealand. "Fishin' Blues" was used as the B-side in Germany (the Swiss and German singles appear the same), Canada, Norway, "Scandinavia" (can't quite see the label fine print), Netherlands, and Greece. In France, "Jug Band Music" was used and in the UK, "Bald Headed Lena".

To list all of the B-sides in the infobox would overload it. Except for the chart tables, other countries' releases aren't discussed. For purposes of Template:Infobox song#B-side, the U.S. (Spoonful's home country) should be sufficient. Perhaps "Some pressings of the single were backed with ..." could be clarified with something like "In the U.S. and several other countries, "Butchie's Tune" was used as the B-side. In other countries, "Fishin' Blues" or another song was used." If readers are interested, they can follow the discogs links for the details.

—Ojorojo (talk) 15:03, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ojorojo, didn't notice that "Fishin' Blues" wasn't used in the US as well. The sources I have only list these two B-sides, so I've tweaked your suggest to only mention them. Tkbrett (✉) 16:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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