Talk:Storm Abigail

Merger proposal

Storm Abigail

I propose merging this article into 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season as general convention has been only to create pages for these storms when they reach qualifying status with Perils (see http://www.perils.org/web/news/event-investigations.html). Some exceptions are made for powerful windstorms which hit areas with low population density and do not cause enough damages to qualify.Lacunae (talk) 13:43, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The background information is not specific to this storm and now that it's over, I do not see it getting larger, leaving us with a stub. It's probably best to start all storms on the season page from now on and if it becomes too large, make a decision then and there to split it. Jolly Ω Janner 18:00, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I've redirected it to the section on the season page. Jolly Ω Janner 22:03, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks.Lacunae (talk) 22:16, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Hold on. Less than nine hours for a merge proposal going through to completion? That's something of a fait accompli, particularly as only two people discussed it. WP:MERGE#Step 4: Close the merger discussion and determine consensus suggests "normally one week or more" and indeed also implies that it might take 30 days. I'm going to revert. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm grateful that editors wish to join in the editorship of articles for Euro Windstorms, however during the past 5 years a certain set of informal agreements on the notability of storms has emerged and thus their need for articles on Wikipedia. Storm Abigail fails to meet these criteria and so I acted to reduce the number of stubs unlikely to be developed into meaningful articles in their own right. I'm sorry if you feel as though we have not given due weight to the arguments in favour of retaining the article, however in the case of such storms editorship usually doesn't remain after the storm has passed to develop the article into a properly worked out form.(Please see my draft for storm Tini/Darwin for evidence of this, which was considered to be a major storm in the UK and Ireland of the past two decades. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lacunae/25)Lacunae (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I am okay with waiting a week, even if it just a formality. If I plan on improving Abigail over the next week, I will do so at 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season. Jolly Ω Janner 23:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I think this article could stand by itself if it were given a section about the meteorological history. Not that I'm opposed to the merger. I primarily work within the tropical cyclone project so I'm not aware of many practices that are enacted here. However, for future storms it would be best to keep them in a season article. Supportstorm (talk) 00:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose merge As the first storm to be named by the Met Office - not just the first in 2015-16 but the first ever - Abigail is unique, and has also received significant press coverage, so passes WP:GNG. Notability is not transient: once established, it does not fade away or expire. This is not an argument to create articles on others (Barney et al.) - they need to stand up for themselves, for example by bringing widespread destruction. --Redrose64 (talk) 01:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  Bodil was the first to be named by the Danish, it is not for the reasons of being the first so named, that the article remains. It may be worth noting that Abigail was also named Frank.Lacunae (talk) 09:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  I didn't say first in Europe, I said first by the Met Office. As for Frank - who assigned that, and why is it not mentioned in the article? --Redrose64 (talk) 10:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  Agreed, it is the first one. Mwiki3101 20:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Oppose merge. Storm is notable for separate article. 178.94.166.186 (talk) 16:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose merger per Redrose64, as the first storm to be named by the Met Office and therefore notable for that reason if nothing else. This is Paul (talk) 19:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
• Merge. There's almost nothing in this article that isn't in the 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season article. Yes, 178.94.166.186 is right, the storm is notable, but no-one's suggesting deleting material, just merging it, and leaving a redirect. Similarly for This is Paul's comment; it's notable as the first named storm, but that's a point about the storm naming system, and that info belongs (with the info about Abigale) in the 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season article. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 12:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
• Merge as per above. Subsequent storms Desmond and Eva, with the major disruption they have caused, reinforce the lack of notoriety in relatively undamaging Abigail. Regards, Buttons0603 | talk to me | 13:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - individual storms should have individual articles. At the very least, please don't have multiple infoboxes in a single article! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:28, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

  So Tropical Depression 9 of the 2015 Atlantic hurricane season deserves its own article? Didn't think so. Same principle here Regards, Buttons0603 | talk to me | 19:40, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Merge. This page has now matured and settled into a good format. There is little on the individual Abigail page that is not already here. Abigail itself was not unusual apart from being the first named. If however there is a spectacular storm that takes more explanations than can be included here, I believe it should have its own page. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 08:58, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Winter storm naming in the United Kingdom and Ireland

I also propose a merge with Winter storm naming in the United Kingdom and Ireland.Lacunae (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Oppose, I expect the storm naming will be in place for a number of years and this article could be useful to list all names for all years. See Tropical cyclone naming as an example, although it has far larger scope. I'd expect the article to be rather small, so I'm open to it being merged with something else, but just not to the 2015-16 season. Jolly Ω Janner 23:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps European windstorm would be more appropriate. The Met Office/Met Eireann have said this is a pilot project, its longevity is not assured.Lacunae (talk) 23:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I would support, specifically at European windstorm#UK and Ireland. Perhaps we should add a merge tag to the windstorm article if that's our suggestion. Jolly Ω Janner 23:49, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Oppose, The storm naming is not a European system, for instance a Mediterranean storm, or even an Atlantic one affecting Portugal/Spain/France would not be allocated a name. We do not know where this idea will lead, maybe it will become an "Atlantic" storm naming system, or even a pan European one, but that will come with time. The page is of similar size to the Winter storm naming in the United States article. The page is also a useful link to the 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season page which provides details of each storm. I would suggest leaving it as it is, until after the Met Office have reviewed the system, if they drop it, it becomes an historic item. If they expand it to include France/Spain/Portugal, a change of name to Atlantic Storm would be appropriate, only time will tell.Mwiki3101 20:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

As the main editor of Tropical cyclone naming and its subtopics, I have been wondering for a while if an overall article on weather naming would be work. I imagine it would start of with Wragge, before moving on to cover the naming schemes that Germany, Norway, the US and now UK and Ireland operate.Jason Rees (talk) 22:35, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I suggested such a few years ago. You may also wish to include Finland, Sweden and Denmark.Lacunae (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I wasnt aware that you had suggested such a few years back, but anyway i would be grateful if you could point me in the direction of some information on the Finland, Sweden and Denmark naming schemes. You would also be more than welcome to help out with this article if you wished too.Jason Rees (talk) 00:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Here's an article from the Swedish perspective (In Swedish I'm afraid http://www.smhi.se/kunskapsbanken/meteorologi/vem-namnger-stormar-1.18957) stating their naming policies. Though it seems it can get a little confusing (https://kundo.se/org/smhi/d/stormen-byter-namn/) The Danish naming came about after a political decision following the St Jude storm, when the Minister for Climate etc. instructed DMI to name severe storms. As for the Finns, I'm not sure if there is a system they use, they just give various names to different severe weather events when they happen.Lacunae (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as per above Regards, Buttons0603 | talk to me | 18:20, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Oppose, the Winter storm naming in the United Kingdom and Ireland is designed as an ongoing page to show the history of names used and as a link between the annual pages, the first of which is 2015–16 UK and Ireland windstorm season. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 09:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)