Talk:Special Group (India)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:10, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that the Special Group are the most elite soldiers of India?
    • ALT1: ... that ‘The Mavericks’ is a nickname of the Special Group?
    • ALT2: ... that the Special Group of India secretly trained a militant organisation which sparked a civil war in Sri Lanka?
    • ALT3: ... that the Special Group were the first to use AK-47 guns in India?
    • ALT4: ... that the Special Group of India secretly added fuel to fire in the civil war of Sri Lanka?
    • ALT5:... that the soldiers of the Special Group of India can jog with a speed of 40 kilometers per hour?
    • ALT6:... that the Special Group, which harbours the most elite soldiers of India, was so secretive that it was deemed nonexistent? Source:[1]
    • ALT7:... that soldiers of the Special Group were the first to use AK-47 guns in India?
    • ALT8:... that AK-47 guns were secretly imported from Europe for the Special Group of India, who were the first users of the gun in India? Source:[2]
    • ALT9:... that AK-47 rifles were secretly purchased from Europe by the Special Group of India, the country's first users of that gun? Source:[3]
    • ALT10... that the Special Group, the covert operations unit of India's Research and Analysis Wing, was created with assistance from the CIA and Mossad?

Created by Vaibhavafro (talk). Self-nominated at 07:00, 11 October 2019 (UTC).[reply]

  • New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. Image is freely licensed. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits.
  • Regarding the hook, the hook fact for ALT0 is not found in the article. ALT1 is not that hooky. I think you can do a better job with a hook for an article about a highly classified covert special forces group. The part about being involved with campaigns that the government doesn't want to be publicly associated with has potential, for example its activities on behalf of Israel, although more detail would have to be added to the article from the source. Yoninah (talk) 14:07, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Rather than editing ALT0 and ALT1, the right way is to offer new hooks as ALT2 an ALT3. That way, new editors can consider the originals and the newer offerings. David notMD (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: References 4 and 15, which pertain to the 1983 civil war in Sri Lanka, the phrase "secretly added fuel to fire" implies the SG took direct actions to increase the intensity of the civil war - this description may be considered stronger than what actually took place if all SG was doing was training militants. David notMD (talk) 15:25, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restored the thread and added nominator's new hook suggestions. Yoninah (talk) 17:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Striking hooks not under consideration. (ALT4 is not encyclopedically worded.) Yoninah (talk) 17:01, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Vaibhavafro: thank you for the new hooks. ALT2 is beginning to sound like a hook, but I don't see this hook fact mentioned explicitly in the article. SG got involved after the militants started fighting; the hook makes it sound like SG's participation sparked the civil war. ALT3 is verified and cited inline, but it's more vague than hooky, since we don't know what SG is. The Week source states: "India's most elite special forces unit that was so discreet that it was considered nonexistent". That kind of fact has a lot of potential for a hook. Any other undercover operation, even one that didn't work out, could make a catchy hook. Yoninah (talk) 17:16, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Yoninah: Thanks for your suggestions. I have added The Weeks "elite soldiers" one as a hook. I have also added the "Soldiers can run with 40 Kmph speed" as a hook.— Vaibhavafro 💬 01:18, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I think ALT9 is better than ALT8.— Vaibhavafro 💬 04:13, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. ALT9 hook ref verified and cited inline. I tweaked the hook and added a link. Rest of review above. ALT9 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 10:30, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yoninah, please address the 40km/hr issue on the talk page. I think that line should be removed. Regards. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 08:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DiplomatTesterMan: done. Removed it.— Vaibhavafro 💬 00:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yoninah, Since User:Vaibhavafro requested me to produce some Alts, ALT10 is the one that I came up with. DBigXrayᗙ 10:09, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. But, I think that the old Alt9 might be more hooky than alt10, though I will wait for a word by Yoninah. I just wanted other users to produce hooks since they might come up with better ones. Still thanks.— Vaibhavafro 💬 11:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, ALT10 is interesting, but the sources don't support it. The article states that the predecessor body, Directorate General (Security), was the one created with assistance from the CIA. After the Special Group's creation, a few members were sent to the Mossad for training. Yoninah (talk) 11:26, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
YoninahYes, alt10 was good. My reason for rejecting was the same as yours. Let's go with ALt9.— Vaibhavafro 💬 12:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked the repetitive wording in ALT9. Yoninah (talk) 13:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The disputed text has been removed from the article. Reiterating tick for ALT9. Yoninah (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please clarify[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was disputed content deleted. The disputed content may be resurrected if more sources back it up.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:02, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vaibhavafro, please clarify this - 40 Kilometres per hour - you can't be serious no matter what the cite says. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: As far as I know, Usain Bolt can run at 45 kmph. There are many people who can run faster than that. It should not be surprising if those ultra-elite guys can touch 40 kmph.— Vaibhavafro 💬 07:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Vaibhavafro: You mentioned that they can jog at this speed.... top speed and jogging are very different. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 07:08, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DiplomatTesterMan:The cite says this.— Vaibhavafro 💬 07:10, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vaibhavafro, one cite and that too India Today. Get something to back this up. What is the normal speed for elite soldiers around the world. What about other SFs in India?... Otherwise I think you should remove this claim. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 07:13, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: What do mean by "that too India Today"? India Today is a reliable, well published source and you have NO locus-standii to question it. It is a fact that African Tribes can run after deers, Jogging for hours till the deer gets tired before capturing it. So why are you so surprised? One has to first become a Para Commando, then a Para SF and then he gets to try the SG. I am sure this top-jogging-speed will be true for other ultra-elite special forces around the world, like the CIA's Special Activities Division. Please don't be so surprised, that fact is perfectly credible. Regards,— Vaibhavafro 💬 07:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: I have replaced "jog" with "run". This should satisfy you and there should not be more discussion.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vaibhavafro, But the article doesnt use the word run does it... I think we have a WP:COI here. I am not surprised at the speed but it is rather laughable. In the same article the author uses the word march at one place and jog at another. I also comapred this with the average speed for 100m sprint and marathons (records). Everythings points to something being wrong here. If 40 isn't wrong, then the words march and jog. Please don't make this a lauging matter. Good job on the article. Regards.DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 08:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vaibhavafro, if you are not going to listen to my rational, you ping some editor and lets see what they say. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 08:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since Yoninah is already part of the DYK, i tagged them for thier view over at the DYK temp. Regards. DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 08:24, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@DiplomatTesterMan: What nonsense! What makes you think there is a WP:COI here? If you are not satisfied with "run" either, let me restore it to what EXACTLY the cite says. You are ridiculing yourself by saying that what civilians can do is the best. Civilian records don't matter here. And what is this march-jog drama now? The author clearly says that the SG are capable of jogging at 40 Kmph. Even if it is for 10 minutes, it will still be jogging. He doesn't even use the word "march". Dont make things up. Best regards,— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok let's see what others have to say.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You removed the template again without letting this discussion finish! You haven't provided enough rationale. Where are your military records then? Or are you just assuming? DiplomatTesterMan (talk) 08:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I not only removed the template but also reverted my "jog"--->"run" transition, which was ther reason cited. What rational do you exactly need? Please specify.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have already given enough clarification. Still you are resorting to making things up, like you made up that "march-jog" claim. Please wait for someone else to comment.— Vaibhavafro 💬 09:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment:WP:SYNTH of your personal opinions and some data cannot be used to challenge a WP:RS. You will need a SOLID source which says that humans can't jog at 40 Kmph even for a few minutes to challenge this.— Vaibhavafro 💬 09:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: DiplomatTesterMan, The Journal of Applied Psychology says that humans can reach a maximum speed of 40 mph (~64 Kmph). I am pretty convinced now that SG guys can jog at 40 Kmph for a short amount of time. Best regards,— Vaibhavafro 💬 12:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, saw myself pinged here. I also think that 40 km/h (25 mph) figure is unbelievable for "jogging". That's the speed of a car going down a residential street! Surely the source made an error. I think you should support it with one other source, or delete it. Yoninah (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Deleted. However, I still think that the 40 kmph content is not outlandish. I will resurrect it again if I find sources which support the content. (Pinging @Yoninah and DiplomatTesterMan:) Regards,— Vaibhavafro 💬 00:46, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please forgive me for WP:SHOUTING because I was not aware of this policy back then. Since this discussion is old and it has been resolved, I am closing it.— Vaibhavafro 💬 07:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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