Talk:Southern Illinois

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Boundaries[edit]

It seems that the article in general equates all of Southern Illinois with Little Egypt. In my experience (I'm from Mt. Vernon), the Metro-East is not included at all in "Little Egypt," and the northern boundary is further south than Effingham (e.g. the news coverage of the Southern Illinoisan, which IIRC has advertised itself as a regional newspaper for Little Egypt, pretty much fades out north of Benton). If there is historical precedent, I don't have a problem with it staying as it is, but should there perhaps be two different pages for Southern Illinois and Little Egypt? Or, at the least, should Southern Illinois be the principal name of the page, since it is the more general name for the region? Just some thoughts. MikeND05 01:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree totally. Southern Illinois and Little Egypt are *not* coincident. This article must have been written by someone from Chicago.... 68.73.94.131 (talk) 05:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also agreed. I'd go so far as to say that people from Effingham don't even consider themselves as being from Southern Illinois, much less Little Egypt. I always kind of thought one of the defining characteristics of Southern Illinois/Little Egypt were due to the fact that it was less flat and more forested than the more "prairie" parts of Central Illinois. Just geographically, the terrain doesn't start getting really hilly until maybe 25-40 miles south of Effingham (I'm thinking Salem/Olney). But most of the terrain along I-70 seems about as flat as the more Northern parts of Central Illinois. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.24.142.128 (talk) 06:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, this is why I moved the article. This article is SOUTHERN ILLINOIS now. Little Egypt is a part of Southern Illinois, but I feel it doesn't need it's own article. It is as a sub-region within this article. I am from Southern Illinois, and I will tell you right now the Metro-East IS part of Southern Illinois, but IS NOT part of Little Egypt.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruhe1986 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm from the Alton area (parents from Eldorado and Hillsboro) and I agree totally: Little Egypt is far from my Alton stomping grounds, but the counties of Calhoun, Jersey, Macoupin (southern half, to include Carlinville) and Madison (obviously), are definitely part of Southern Illinois by all criteria. I-70 may work as a northern boundary in the eastern part of the state, but as it runs west it doesn't serve at all, as it runs well south of the northern boundary of Southern Illinois. Someone said the article must have been written by someone from Chicago. I disagree; large pieces of it read as though they were written by someone from Little Egypt. Two obvious examples: Parks and Wineries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.23.211 (talk) 03:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article Name?...[edit]

See also #Boundaries (the section next above).
  • 67.176.74.236 05:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)Richard Jensen. As the author of the state history, "Illinois: A History" (U of Illinois Press, 2002), I have done extensive research on Egypt. It was and is called "Egypt" but outsiders sometimes mix it up with the belly dancer at the 1933 Chicago World's Fair named "Little Egypt" (whose name refers to Egyptian belly dancers, not to this region. And it was the Fair of 1933, not that of 1893, when she appeared.) So let's just drop all the "Little" references. This misinformation should be exposed by an ency, not repeated. RJ[reply]
  • You are absolutely wrong. Little Egypt is the preferred term. I know. I grew up there. 128.114.60.186 10:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article says "The region is sometimes mistakenly called "Little Egypt" ." But it seems this "mistake" was also made by whoever titled this page....Shouldn't this be moved to Egypt (Illinois region) or something like that?... Blackcats 05:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a good idea--can you do it? Rjensen 05:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • No need to move. Egypt is an older form of the name but Little Egypt is widely used now. Rmhermen 01:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one calls Southern Illinois "Little Egypt." I lived there for twenty years and have never heard that term until I wikipediad "Southern Illinois." THis is a subjective term obviously used only by people from the very sparsley populated Cairo area. If I had more time on my hands I'd correct this error, but hopefully someone else can do it. Kpoz 20:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not true. For instance, I live in Waterloo, Illinois, south of St. Louis, and there was a senior center and thrift shop called "Western Egyptian" part of the Egyptian Health Organization. Also, "Egyptian Stationers" in Carbondale, Illinois. So its not just a term used around Kay-ro. PreciousRoi (talk) 22:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes,Cairo is pronounced Kay-ro (ro like the greek letter "rho") and that pronunciation should be indicated the first time "Cairo" is used because almost everyone outside of southern Illinois will presume it takes the standard pronunciation. There also exist towns in southern Illinois called Vye - enna (Vienna) and New Madrid where the Ma is accented and pronounced "Maw" as in "Ma Barker" and drid rhymes with "did." Ileanadu (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have never heard anyone call it "New Maw-drid" The a is short, and the first syllable is accented. "New MAA-drid". 02:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Until some time in the early 20th century the region was called "Egypt." It referred to the area now within the Metro-East region, including Goshen (established in 1790s) -- now Edwardsville area -- and, importantly, the pyramids at Cahokia, and south to the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers, the 1818 site of Cairo. The area was, as the article states, largely settled by people from the Upland South, whose cultural forms were very different from the Yankees and mid-Atlantic immigrants who predominated in the migrations of the 1830s onward. These newcomers held the Southern hill folk in disdain, and the appellation "Egypt" came to have negative meanings, as in "darkest Egypt" (see, for example, "Reminiscences of Chicago During the Civil War," by Mabel McIlvaine, 1914). Nonetheless, Egyptian-themed town names were popular as railroads were built in the latter half of the 19th century. I have not found the name "Little Egypt" used until around the 1920s, though my research is hardly exhaustive. I speculate that "Little" was added to differentiate it from the country Egypt, which many people came to have first-hand knowledge of during WWI. But that name was always objectionable to many because of its use by what Will Griffith, publisher of the "Egyptian Key" magazine in the 1940s, referred to as a "hootchie-kootchie" dancer (see John Musgrave, "Welcome to New Egypt!" [1]). As the Metro-East region urbanized, and as the dominance of upland south culture shrank into the southernmost part of Illinois, the boundaries of "Egypt" also shrank. I grew up in northern Jackson County (b. 1943) and always knew the region as "Egypt" or, more controversially, "Little Egypt." Jane Adams 29 April 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.131.30 (talk) 19:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This section makes no sense: "The nicknames for this region also arose from the settlement factors that brought political tensions prior to and during the American Civil War, as regions of the state allied differently with North and South. Because southern Illinois was settled by southerners, they maintained a sympathy for many issues of their former states. They supported the continuation of slavery. They voted Democratic, when the northern part of the state was supporting Republicans." While "Egypt" was used to refer to the region during the run-up to the Civil War, and while the region was generally Democratic in political sympathies, there's no causal link between the name and the politics. This needs revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.131.30 (talk) 20:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we *please* just name this article "Southern Illinois" since that's the modern term. Yes, it has this weird nickname. Yes, there are multiple references to Egypt within the region, but no one from Southern Illinois says, "I'm from Little Egypt." Seriously. This article reeks of so called "experts" that have no idea what they're talking about. This article should be written by locals. 67.169.145.35 (talk) 02:09, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion continues below. — AjaxSmack 06:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reside in Belleville, and have lived in "Southern Illinois" all my life. Born here too. These people who even think that Little Egypt is even a used term or nickname for the region are joking themselves. Nowhere from Alton to Anna does anyone use little egypt in common speech in referring to the southern part of Illinois. It's an unused, outdated term that is probably used by a handful of rural towns with populations under a thousand and older folks.

Lets not have any pretentions about Southern Illinois being known as Little Egypt anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.80.250 (talk) 03:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How About this regions support of the Confederacy?[edit]

The region had alot in common with south for one part its racial characteristics and some of the locals have southern accents, and according to past history representatives voted in support of many bills which were largley supported by southerners.

To a large extent, this is part of the re-imagining of the "romantic South". It is covered in the culture section. Rmhermen 04:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many men from Southern Illinois volunteered for the Confederate Army. Some say Memorial Day started when Union Gen. John A. Logan invited the Confederate veterans to march with the Union vets from Murphysboro to C'dale.

Most men joined the Union Army. General Logan was one of the dignitaries at an April 1866 event to decroate graves of Civil War soldiers at Woodlawn Cemetery in Carbondale, IL. This was one of several early "Memorial Days" started in different parts of the country. Later as national commander of the Union veterans' group, Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), Logan in 1868 ordered all GAR chapters to observe May 30 as a day of remembrance. [2]--Parkwells (talk) 14:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gen. John Alexander McClernand was a Southern Illinois Congressman before the war. He had pro-Southern, pro-Union views that probably reflected the popular viewpoint in Southern Illinois. He was Grant's main rival for command of Union forces in the West. McClernand's attitude was more of "let's settle this before somebody gets hurt", in contrast to Grant's abolitionist tendencies.

At the time of the Civil War, the "Southern accent" had not yet come into existence.M dorothy

""Southern accent" had not yet come into existence.". This is not entirely true. Speech has changed since the War but regional speech differences existed long before the War. Rmhermen 05:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Memorial Day is documented to have started in Maryland, I think at Antietam. There were early observations in several places.--Parkwells (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moving Forward[edit]

I think we have a pretty good article here but it would be nice to have a couple more pictures and maybe a more concentrated 'History' section. GA status would logically be the goal, but issues with the GA process lead me to think that I'd rather not bother to get GA for this article. Anyone else have any opinions? Robovski 23:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Source for this info?[edit]

"Southern Illinois has consistently voted for conservative Republican candidates since 1920."

I don't buy it. Prove me wrong.


--I think you might be right. Look at this. So. IL has voted predominantly Democrat in 2004, 1992, 1988, 1976, 1964, 1956, 1952, 1944, 1936, 1932, 1928, and 1924 Just because it's near some more Republican states, it does not mean that they will vote Republican. Southern IL and the Chicago areas are the two main Democratic voting areas in the state. Out of 22 elections between 2008 and 1920, 12 (more than half) were dominated by Democratic votes in the Southern Illinois Region. 54% of the time since then it has voted Democrat.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IL/S/01/

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=1996&fips=17&f=0&off=0&elect=0

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=17&year=1992&f=0&off=0

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=17&year=1976&f=0&off=0

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=17&year=1964&f=0&off=0

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1956.htm\

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1944.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1936.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1932.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1928.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1924.htm

And another thing is, why list elections since 1920?

The same is also true for 1916, 1912, 1908, and 1900. note: http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1916.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1916.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1908.htm

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1900.htm

I looked at the same source, and this even goes true for some elections prior to 1900 (such as 1896, 1868). One thing that is very interesting to look more into is the question of how and why Southern IL has stayed so predominantly Democratic during and before the Civil War. This even goes back to 1836 when the Whigs still had an influence. Prior to the 1836 election, it is very difficult to find sources that break it down by county for Illinois. ---http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/elec_comtes/1836.htm

Do you think it would be safe to say that Southern Illinois has historically been Democrat? I know that right around the Civil War with Lincoln and Steven Douglas, the basis of the Democratic changed. For quality, I think Southern Illinois politics should be researched, elaborated and made into its own section. It's too lengthy to discuss in one page.

~Seeright (talk) 00:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Seeright[reply]

golden circle[edit]

The golden circle does not divide southern illinois from the rest of the state. The circle's arc goes way north according to the map on Golden Circle (slavery) 128.114.60.186 10:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not that far north. Rmhermen 20:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalize "Southern Illinois"[edit]

Following the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Directions and regions And given that this article assumes that Southern Illinois is a distinct region. Shouldn't it be capitalized? Or at least shouldn't the use of capitalization for the region be consistent throughout? 70.225.36.194 (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. 68.73.94.131 (talk) 05:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename and Rewrite[edit]

This article needs to be renamed "Southern Illinois" and rewritten so that "Little Egypt" is subordinate as a mere nickname for the region, not the name of the region (which it certainly is not now, if it ever was). The way it is written now would be like naming the article on "Chicago" to "The Windy City" and redirecting "Chicago" to it. 68.73.94.131 (talk) 05:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. 01:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.145.35 (talk)

And as others have pointed out, Little Egypt is not synonymous with Southern Illinois, but a portion of it. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of cities too long[edit]

This seems a long list of notable cities for a region described as rural. Needs to be reduced.--Parkwells (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia list at end of Origin of name[edit]

This list of Egypt-related items seems too much like trivia (teams and institutions in a region named Little Egypt are named in association with that. So? Too long. Recommend deletion.--Parkwells (talk) 16:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming to Southern Illinois[edit]

See also previous discussion above. — AjaxSmack 06:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Three editors, all unregistered have asked that the article be renamed Southern Illinois. I agree with them, and there has been no opposition. Therefore, I am moving it. Yours sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I couldn't move it, so I asked an administrator to do so. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Little Egypt (region) → Southern Illinois — It has been discussed several times and agreed that Little Egypt is a defunct term, and is a nickname not an official term. Southern Illinois is the official name of the area. I tried to make the move myself, but Southern Illinois is already a redirect page, and should be deleted or switched with Little Egypt (region)Ruhe1986 (talk) 22:41, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kindly make the move per Talk Page. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We are on the same page, I did the same thing, maybe I should have read this first lol 01:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruhe1986 (talk • contribs)

In fact, this page begins with the complaint that Little Egypt does not apply to all of this area; my experience is that it doesn't, just the dark soils of the Ohio Valley. You have a couple of anon complaints, and a response from PreciousRoi that Little Egypt reaches to Waterloo, Illinois. The correct response is to divide the page, as originally suggested. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Areas that need to be included within article[edit]

  • fix the geography section

A Media section

  • The Southern Illinoisian Newspaper
  • WSIL-TV
  • Things like that

Other

  • Fix the economy section (Include factual statements on the downturn of the economy)
  • add a government section
  • bla bla bla. Use your imagination, This article as alot of potential and needs to seriously be worked on after the move is made. I personally love the article on Southern California, so use that as a template on what needs to be in this article. Except use proper references.
  • I already added the section on the different regions of Southern Illinois. I just need to collect all the references for it. This is an article I cannot do on my own. I'm still working on trying to get the Harrisburg, Illinois page Featured Article Status, I already got the thing to Good Article Status. (I am still learning everything there is to learn about Wiki-editing. so yea, you can call me a noob doing crazy things like climbing the harrisburg levee to take a picture for wiki and falling in a pond by accident.)
  • Oh yea, someone should look up something about the zip code 618, because that's basically all of southern Illinois right there.

Ruhe1986 (talk) 01:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to see a section in this article on the Burrows Cave story (supposed find of thousands of Egyptian artifacts in the area). Granted, it's a hoax, but it's still a notable hoax, so should at least be mentioned. --Elonka 03:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted irrelevant photos[edit]

At least editors agree this is about Illinois; I deleted the photos of Evansville, Paducah, and Cape Girardeau, which have no place here. St. Louis may be marginal, but there are claims that Metro-East, part of its metropolitan area, is part of Southern Illinois).Parkwells (talk) 19:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no qualms with you removing the photographs of the out of state cities, but to claim the metro east is NOT part of Southern Illinois is preposterous. Read any local newspaper or local news channel and you will think differently. It's very much so part of Southern Illinois, and it's large population affects and is included with the rest of the region politically, economically, and socio-culturally. Ruhe1986 (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting Information?[edit]

This article states, "The Illini Indian tribes, after whom the state is named, . . ", but the article on Illinois suggests otherwise. I have no idea which is correct; perhaps someone can provide some references?

Fcy (talk) 01:16, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Egypt Was Original Name for Region[edit]

According to easily available, published books and articles, the name "Little Egypt" is a relatively recent construct. This vernacular region was originally called "Egypt," a name which was used exclusively into the 20th century. A section on the origin and use of "Egypt" (and the latecomer, "Little Egypt") would improve this article. PlaysInPeoria (talk) 03:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a section on Little Egypt within this article already, feel free to edit it with proper sources at your own discretion. Thank you for the suggestion. Ruhe1986 (talk) 02:00, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've lived in Illinois much of my life (albeit in Central, not Southern Illinois) and I'd never heard of the term "Little Egypt" until I saw it used in this article. From what I gather from prior comments, it is apparently a term used by some for a specific subset/subregion of Southern Illinois. As such, I believe it would be appropriate to recast the article to identify said sub-region, maybe have a section on it, while making it clear that it's only a subregion and not concurrent with the entirety of Southern Illinois. Unfortunately I'm not well-versed enough in the specifics of the region to make those edits myself. (At least it doesn't support that Chicago-ism that "Southern Illinois" is everything south of I-80, a definition which practically no one who lives south of I-80 concurs with.) --mwalimu59 (talk) 05:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
General consesnus is everything north of Champaign is northern Illinois. Everything between Effingham and Champaign is central illinois, everything south of Effingham is Southern Illinois, and the couties of Hardin, Pope, Saline, Williamson, Pulaski, and Jackson, are "Little Egypt".


Why include image of St. Louis rather than ESL to represent Metro East[edit]

Given that this article is about Southern Illinois, it seems that the image of St. Louis included (St Louis night expblend.jpg) should be replaced by an image taken of somewhere within Metro East. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amomiamigo (talk • contribs) 00:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Cold hardy palms"[edit]

The photos captioned as "cold hardy palms" were restored after I removed them. I'm removing them again because these photos do NOT show palms, these photos show yuccas, which are not particularly notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.51.174.100 (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see that the claims about palms growing in southern Illinois were also restored. This is simply not accurate and I don't understand why such a claim, without any kind of support or citation, is to be left in the article. Its original addition to the article was tantamount to vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.51.174.100 (talk) 02:42, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This topic is currently being discussed on WikiProject Plants. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 01:59, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Geographic anomaly: Counties and colleges[edit]

Principia College in Jersey County and Blackburn College in Macoupin County are listed under Colleges and universities, yet the map shows neither county as being in Southern Illinois. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 15:37, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that those counties, as well as Calhoun, should be added on the map, perhaps shaded pink. In my opinion, any area within the 618 area code should be categorized as Southern Illinois. 107.242.113.31 (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

False: Southern Illinois is also known as "Little Egypt"[edit]

This is simply false. Southern Illinois and Little Egypt are not coterminous. We can bicker day and night over where Little Egypt starts, but wherever that is, it's well down into Southern Illinois. Madison and Bond counties, for example, (and others) are uncontroversially within Southern Illinois. They (and others) are also uncontroversially north of Little Egypt. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 06:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. 157.185.115.191 (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this has been corrected 157.185.115.191 (talk) 03:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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