Talk:Sonni Ali

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Wlin486.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Sonni" or "Sunni"or"sunny"

The Encarta blurb found at [1] refers to this historical figure as "Sunni Ali". Which is correct, Sunni or Sonni? Courtland 00:39, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

My world history textbook says "Sonni" - probably both are acceptable, as with many Arabic terms, e.g. Muslim or Moslem. Andre (talk) 00:45, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

An anon user just changed this back from Sonni to Sunni. While I agree that either is probably ok, English language Google searches for "'Sonni Ali' Songhai" [2] and "'Sunni Ali' Songhai" [3] reveal a preference for "Sonni" by about 2:1. I'll switch this back, and for now I'd suggest leaving it there; of course, though, if anyone has any contrary stats indicating "Sunni Ali" to be the more common/correct usage, I'd be happy to see them. --Dvyost 03:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I always read "Sonni Ali" and not "Sunni Ali" but how the vowel is rendered may vary. "Ber" just means "great." --A12n 15:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

controversial info without references

Sunni Ali Ber was a Muslim by default thinking, You cannot measure by science the Islamicness of a person just because they have "non-Islamic" beliefs. This is highly subjective and is an area for "faith discussions" not a Wikipedia bio. Muslims all over the world blend their native beliefs with Islam, there is no "pure Islam" How do you measure faith? see definition of a Muslim--Halaqah 13:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I just added some references. It may be controversial, but it's valid info. Andre (talk) 16:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

References should not be links (see other sites for example). If you put something of that weight which i see as a redundant discussion (discussing the degree of Islam of someone) the bio is a stub it does little to expand who Sunni was. This needs developing. A un sourced list of African people isn’t a reference. Source a book, a page with references to the source of the material. If you cant do that then it has to be deleted as invalid and unsubstantiated. I have put it in this section below so you can develop it but it cannot be in the article without serious backing of references, web links are not references--Halaqah 18:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

redundant cats

Sunni Ali Ber was from Africa not the Middle East. do not put middle eastern slave owning tags on his page. Becare when you do reverts because you undo valid work.--Halaqah 18:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree since Songhai was in Africa, not Asia. IExistToHelp (talk) 00:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Discuss before adding back to article

Opinions vary on whether Sonni Ali can correctly be described as a Muslim. He ruled over both urban Muslims and rural non-Muslims at a time when the traditional co-existence of different beliefs was being challenged. His adherence to African animism while also professing Islam leads some writers to describe him as outwardly or nominally Muslim.[4][5]

This is in conflict with the following site which has been listed above:

Sunni Ali Ber built a remarkable army and with this ferocious force, the warrior king won battle after battle. He routed marauding nomads, seized trade routes, took villages, and expanded his domain. He captured Timbuktu, bringing into the Songhay empire a major center of commerce, culture, and Moslem scholarship. ][6]

there is no substancial accurate source to support the statments which i have removed.Please see wikipedia standards for adding disputed items. You must provide valid clearly established sources, what you are doing is weasling "Opinions vary on whether Sonni Ali can correctly be described as a Muslim" show these opinions from academics.Or leave the discussion alone. --Halaqah 18:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, websites are indeed valid references. The ones I used might not be, but websites can be. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Second of all, I created this article -- I'm not about to "leave the discussion alone." The opinions DO vary, it's not weaseling. Andre (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

And also, those two statements are not in conflict. Sonni Ali did build an army and did make the Songhay empire into a center of Muslim scholarship -- this is not in dispute. Opinions vary among academics, however, whether Ali himself was truly a Muslim, or just a nominal (in name only) Muslim, since he continued to practice African animism that was in direct conflict with Islam. Andre (talk) 22:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It doesnt meet the standard, cite one book , site one serious source any website can say anything, so it must appear on a more substantial page. "Opinions vary among academics" if this is true then bring the other academics, Did Ali Mazrui say it, did Diop say it, WHO? There is zero reference from any academic--that is called weasling. You just cant have a bio and at length discuss a topic which doesnt illuminate a weighted fact. First of all his degree of Islam is a seriously minor aspect in a bio that needs to deal with much more than how much Islam he practiced, It is very tedious and highly subjective. Imagine going through all the Jews of history and debating the degree of Jewness. The definition of Islam is broad and hence unless you can specific show this issue has weight i dont see its value here. Time i think should be spent building up a "full" bio. And your references have to not be copy and paste links. As someone who is very familiar with West African history the point is rare and not "Opinions vary among Academics. --Halaqah 11:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It is in conflict because he wasnt really a Muslim, yet he had a Muslim name, he made Songhay a centre for Islamic scholarship, he probably prayed 5 times a day. Practising animism doesnt invalidate Islam. This is a theological debate and this here is a bio of a man. Please read the Islam section, since Islam is not a monolith it is almost "racial superiority" to suggest because he had African traditions he was a "real Muslim" while the Arabs who blend their ancient beliefs with Islam are "real Muslims." It is invalid as their is no strong evidence to support this claim. And we must deal in facts especially when making conflicting statements. Why would a man be promoting Islamic scholarship and then not be a Muslim--its a conflict. He wasnt a Arab Muslim, he was an African Muslim.--Halaqah 11:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I am very happy you created the article. Because it is important. But we have peer assesment and it is for the good of everyone as we are all made to produce 100% quality work. I have created many articles and we cannot let pride stop valid critic. I have had to remove or drop many things when i was asked by peers for sources.--Halaqah 12:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about pride or theology. It's about a simple fact: many writers describe him as "nominally Muslim." If you need a book I'll get a book, but websites are valid sources too. Andre (talk) 19:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And make sure you dont get one book, because the statement is "Opinions vary among academics" so you need to show this, page number author, authority, etc. If we make statements that are not disputed noone is going to sqeeze u for references but dont make controversial statments without serious evidence. Its not that somebody hasnt said that but i think in such a short bio it is very unbalanced out of the blue to discuss how Islamic or none Islamic someone is. Its like saying he wasnt really African, because he was a Muslim, or in your case he wasnt really Muslim because he was African. r these people Islamic scholars? we need this info, and c there is only one refernce on this page (and i added it) --Halaqah 21:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Owen 'Alik Shahadah

A discussion thread about the reliability and notability of this author and his pages is taking place at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Owen 'Alik Shahadah, please comment there so we can get a final consensus. Rupert Loup (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

History

Sonni Ali could actually be true and not contradict each other  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.216.68.11 (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC) 

What is Bodmas

Y sonni was the king of songhai Empire 41.114.11.97 (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Songhai established and ruled under Sonni ali

Songhai established and ruled under Sonni ali 41.114.37.250 (talk) 21:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)