Talk:Somali–Kenyan conflict

Basis of this article

The Somali community in Kenya are Kenyan citizens and have not declared conflict with the Kenyan State. The article should be separated into instances of conflict between the Somali community and other Kenyan communities (ideally under Ethnic conflicts in Kenya) and instances of injustices against Somalis by the Kenyan state (ideally under The Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission of Kenya)--Kenyabook (talk) 21:11, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

A minority of Somalis in Kenya are citizens; most are recent immigrants from Somalia and in some cases Ethiopia. Regardless, all Somalis are subject to the same harassment and other triggers of ethnic conflict and have been since independence and the Shifta War i.e. well before the TJRC was formed in 2008 (c.f. [1]). An ethnic conflict is also defined as "conflict between ethnic groups often as a result of ethnic nationalism and ethnic hatred[...] They are of interest because of the apparent prevalence since the Cold War and because they frequently result in war crimes such as genocide." The Garissa Massacre, Wagalla massacre and 2012-2013 clashes in Nairobi and Garissa... these are ethnic conflicts. Not petty, common skirmishes over pastureland and/or livestock. Middayexpress (talk) 21:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Two issues with this position need to be examined. The first is the evidence that the majority of the Somali's in Kenya are recent immigrants from Somalia. The second issue is that the conflicts mentioned were not carried out by other ethnic groups but by state/government actors not any specific Kenyan ethnic groups. These were therefore not conflicts but injustices against a people. The TJRC article provides a better context to understand them.--Kenyabook (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

All Somalis in Kenya are ultimately immigrants. Some are descendants of migrants who first arrived in the late 19th/early 20th century; many others came after the civil war in Somalia first broke out in the early 1990s. This is not the main issue, though, because many Somalis are citizens of Ethiopia as well, with the Ogaden region being primarily Somali-inhabited like the North Eastern Province. This fact has not negated the existence of an Ethiopian–Somali conflict page. The Somali vs. Ethiopian ethnic conflict dates back to the Middle Ages and is almost exclusively state-based. By contrast, the one between Somalis and Kenyans began in earnest during the colonial period (when Somalis and the various Kenyan communities first made real contact), and involves civilians as well. This tension peaked with a series of massacres in the 1980s committed against the Somali resident community, including the two worst human rights violations in Kenya's history. The latest 2012-2013 clashes in Nairobi and Garissa saw Kenyans from a variety of ethnic groups blaming Somalis a priori for the Al-Shabaab blasts, destroying and looting Somali shops and homes, and physically attacking them. That includes the Kenyan police (c.f. [2]). So this isn't something that just popped up recently; tension has long existed between the two communities. This cannot be adequately addressed on the TJRC page because much of the ethnic conflict has nothing to do with the Commission and is outside the scope of internal Kenyan disputes. It is a general Somali-Kenyan conflict. At any rate, as long as it's understood that recent petty skirmishes, such as over pastureland and/or livestock, do not qualify as ethnic conflicts in the real sense of the term -- unlike the nationalist struggles, ethnic mistrust and massacres described on this page -- a re-direct from this article to the main Ethnic conflicts in Kenya page seems acceptable. Note, however, that if conflicts on the scale of the 2012-2013 tensions surface again, this decision will have to be reconsidered. Middayexpress (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

As has been similarly proposed by another user on the Ethiopian–Somali conflict, I would propose a merge with Kenya-Somalia relations page. Secondly, regarding scale, a "petty skirmish" may not be the correct definition of a conflict over 2 years resulting in displacement of thousands as well as deaths at the hands of individuals wielding weapons such AK47s as the sources in the article indicated. While this may not fit the bill of War crimes a review the sources and impact may indicate this specific conflict in eastern Kenya is notable enough for mention in an article on Ethnic conflict in Kenya.--Kenyabook (talk) 15:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The driving factor in that recent skirmish is pastureland and livestock, not decades-old, nationalism-based ethnic hatred and chronic genocide. Exponentially more people have been killed in Maasai vs. Kikuyu conflicts alone (which have been going on since the pre-colonial era), but no mention of those clashes is made on the Ethnic conflict in Kenya page. This is presumably because those skirmishes have been over scarce resources, not ethnic grievances per se; not to mention the fact that just about all communities in Kenya have at some point experienced similar clashes involving deaths. Those skirmishes are thus better covered if necessary on the Cattle raiding in Kenya page. They do not belong on the ethnic conflict main page, as they do not meet the definition of an ethnic conflict quoted earlier. That is, there is no ethnic nationalism, ethnic hatred or genocide involved. All three criteria are, by contrast, present in the general Somali-Kenyan conflict. With regard to the Ethiopian-Somali conflict page, a merger was proposed with the Ethiopia–Somalia relations page because both subjects mainly involve state-level tensions. Much of the Somali-Kenyan conflict, on the other hand, involves clashes between civilians; particularly the 2012-2013 riots, when Somalis and their businesses and homes were targeted by angry Kenyan mobs. My proposal is thus to either a) keep this article as it is, including the section on petty skirmishes, or b) re-direct this page to the Ethnic conflict in Kenya main article, which would then focus exclusively on actual ethnic conflicts as outlined above; the 2012-2013 transregional conflict section on that page would remain the same, except for one or two introductory sentences explaining that Al-Shabaab's bombings are reprisal acts for the Operation Linda Nchi. Middayexpress (talk) 16:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

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Referendum

See Talk:Constitution of Kenya (1963)#Referendum. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Last paragraph of Coastal Oil Field Dispute is poorly written

“Kenya gave mining rights to France and Italian companies in 2009, however, accused Somalia of doing the same. Somalia denied the accusation. This seems to create confusion. The only hope is for ICJ to make a binding decision.”

This part seems to start out with a less than neutral tone and the general writing style appears to be very out of place in Wikipedia 195.155.171.37 (talk) 10:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)