Talk:Sister Jean

Is her full name hyphenated or not?

Some news articles [1] [2] and one official Loyola-Chicago profile [3] are spelling her name as unhyphenated "Jean Dolores Schmidt". Other news articles [4] [5] and another official Loyola-Chicago profile [6] are spelling her name as hyphenated "Jean Dolores-Schmidt". So which is correct? Anyone have an authoritative source or authoritative evidence? —Lowellian (reply) 05:23, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I say skip the hyphen, because my google search Jean Dolores Schmidt site:luc.edu (LUC.edu is the website of Loyola U Chicago) shows mostly no hyphen. Arbor to SJ (talk) 05:15, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

That's not definitive or even particularly strong evidence, though. If someone could come forward with an authoritative source or authoritative evidence, that would be great. —Lowellian (reply) 10:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think that the hyphenated form is correct because it seems unlikely that the earliest sources would have randomly inserted a hyphen into a name unless they had some reason to think that was correct. (That is, it seems more likely that sources would have accidentally and wrongly dropped a hyphen than that sources would have accidentally and wrongly inserted a hyphen.) But, again, what we really need is an authoritative source or authoritative evidence. —Lowellian (reply) 13:29, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

It is possible that the hyphen form is a style adopted by her religious order. Dolores is the anglicized version of one of the names for the Virgin Mary and may have been adopted when she became a sister. See Our Lady of Sorrows. This is just speculation on my part, but maybe somebody who knows about such things may be prompted to comment. I doubt the New York Times dropped it by mistake; more likely it did not match their style book. I don't see any real problem with including both per WP:ALTNAME. 24.151.116.12 (talk) 14:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, including both seems the way to go pending an authoritative source. —Lowellian (reply) 21:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

This 2013 Chicago Tribune article omits the hyphen, as does the 1982-83 Yearbook of Higher Education and 1985 Directory of women religious in the United States. These New York Times articles "A Day in the Life of Sister Jean, Media Darling" and "You Know Sister Jean. Meet Father Rob." omit the hyphen. Again, I'm inclined to omit the hyphen. Arbor to SJ (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I actually already cited that same "A Day in the Life of Sister Jean" NYT article in my original post above, which gave multiple sources for both forms of the name. The difficulty is that it is easy to find sources for either form of the name, but we have nothing authoritative such as an official governmental or institutional identification document or an article that specifically discusses her name or gives details of her life history or ancestry that would indicate which form is correct. —Lowellian (reply) 21:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Here is an authoritative source: the Loyola U Chicago web directory. Entering a search for first name "Jean" and last name "Schmidt" returns an entry for "Jean D. Schmidt BVM", implying that "Dolores" is her middle name. Arbor to SJ (talk) 05:25, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

That's not authoritative. I agree that this directory treats Schmidt as her last name, but several directories were already listed above, and this is just another directory. Having search functionality doesn't make this directory more authoritative. —Lowellian (reply) 23:19, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Here is a press release from the official Loyola-Chicago athletics website. It omits the hyphen. A google search shows it's consistent throughout the LoyolaRamblers.com website. Arbor to SJ (talk) 05:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

It is not consistent throughout Loyola websites, and the athletics website does not have greater authoritativeness than the main university website, which, as mentioned before, has an official profile in hyphenated form. Here is another article, this one not previously mentioned, giving her name in hyphenated form. There are lots of sources for both forms of the name. —Lowellian (reply) 21:58, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I found this abstract of Schmidt's papers at LUC that specifically requests citation without the hyphen, as in: "Loyola University Chicago. Women & Leadership Archives. Sister Jean Dolores Schmidt Collection. Box #, Folder #." This has to be pretty authoritative if LUC's library has an archive with an un-hyphenated name. Arbor to SJ (talk) 00:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

It's not authoritative. It's a single profile overview. That doesn't invalidate all the other profiles and sources that use a hyphen. When both forms are being used by reliable sources and no authoritative sources like an official government ID or an article that specifically discusses her name or gives details of her life history or ancestry that would indicate which form is correct has been provided, we can't just dismiss all the sources that use a hyphen. —Lowellian (reply) 20:15, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Given that reliable sources use both forms, the article should give both forms per WP:ALTNAME, as User:24.151.116.12 suggested above. —Lowellian (reply) 20:47, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I suspect that the hyphen actually is a mistake that has been repeatedly copied in recent months. The person who compiled that document for the Loyola University library had access to lots of materials that Sister Jean wrote herself, and if a hyphen were present, I think that would have been reflected in the PDF linked above. I'm also having trouble finding any older sources (like, 2017 or earlier) that include a hyphen. In the BVM sisters directory, her name is listed without a hyphen. (Interestingly, "Jean Dolores" is specifically described as her "religious name".)

I know that none of that settles things in light of Wikipedia policy. But I'm a Loyola grad, and if I have a chance, I'll visit their library to see what I can find. Zagalejo^^^ 01:37, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, you'll have to treat this as deep background... But I am told that the hyphenated form is indeed a mistake, and is not used by Sister Jean herself. Someone once used the hyphen while making content for the school's website, and the hyphen was subsequently reproduced in other sources.

As I said, older sources consistently present the name without a hyphen. And BVM sources to make it clear that "Dolores" is part of her religious name, "Jean Dolores," and not part of a surname. (See this for another example.)

Here are a couple of things written by Sister Jean herself: this and this. Of course, she may not have typed the bylines herself, but in any case, this adds more evidence for the name without the hyphen. Zagalejo^^^ 22:59, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, here's something that almost certainly was typed by Sister Jean herself. Zagalejo^^^ 23:28, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Notability of Sister Jean

Hi. I'm wondering how/why this topic is notable for inclusion in Wikipedia. After reading the article, I can see how Sister Jean is notable and important for Loyola University. But how is she notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia? Is it because she is so old? Is there something I'm missing? Thank you. Mark Froelich (talk) 02:12, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

(Addendum) By the way, I realize that Sister Jean's story has been written up in some major news papers, such as the New York Times. However, as we see at what Wikipedia is not, we know that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and that most newsworthy events do not meet notability criteria. I'm wondering what specifically about Sister Jean qualifies for enduring notability. Thank you. Mark Froelich (talk) 00:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This article has already been through AFD and survived. I think the Sister Jean story will endure in histories of the NCAA Tournament. She was one of the biggest names in the 2018 event, and is probably better known to casual fans than any specific Loyola player. Sister Jean was also covered in major Chicago newspapers and various religious publications long before 2018. Zagalejo^^^ 13:08, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I did not know there was an AFD discussion on this topic. I will look up that discussion and see why people think she's notable outside of Loyola. Mark Froelich (talk) 00:04, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Dr. Sister Jean correct name.

As she has been awarded a Doctorate by a certified collage she should be Known as Dr Sister Jean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.104.74.63 (talk) 21:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC)