Talk:Sir John Arundell IV

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Lamboune and Sour land[edit]

There is neither a historical basis nor a reliable source for the claims being made regarding the Arundells acquiring Lambourne and Sour lands. It was (at least according to the 'accepted' pedigree) John (I) who died by 1309, who supposedly married the Sour heiress, not John IV, and there is no reason to give the Sour lands special notice among the other lands the Arundells had accumulated by this time (Treloy, the Rupe, Lanherne and Carminowe inheritances, etc.). The Lambourne lands likewise did not come through the marriage to Joan Luscote, who wasn't related to Lambourne at all. It might be useful to describe what lands John held, since there really isn't much of an article otherwise, but it must be based of reliable secondary sources and not speculation or original research in the Wardour document collection.

That being said, what is the basis for asserting the notability of this person? 1376 is the first we know his father was dead, so this John may not have been head of the family for more than a few months. Agricolae (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The National Archives have this to say. I'm happy to reword it in order to improve the article. I was also hoping another knowledgeable editor jump in and add something to the article.
"John Arundell IV son of John III ?; known as Sir John Arundell of Treloy; married Joan Luscott in 1362 x 1367 which brought to the Arundells (after the deaths of Joan and her second husband Sir William Lambourn in 1397 x 1407) the Devonshire manors of Battishorne, Darracott, Gratton, Loddiswell, Ideford, and Spreacombe and land in Buckland Dinham and Luscott; died 1372 x 1376, predeceasing his father.

John Arundell V son of John IV (his elder brother Ralph died a minor in 1382-3); born circa 1366; inherited manors of Carminow, Kennall and Winnington and advowsons of Philleigh and Whitstone in 1396 as a result of his grandfather's marriage in 1334; knighted in 1399; by 1407 had inherited property in Devon from his mother Joan Luscott; served in navy 1418-19; married Annora Lambourn which brought to the Arundells the manors of Goran, Lambourn, Lanhadron, Penwerris and Tregarne Condurrow; died 11th January 1435." http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/cd9f6758-cf9e-4e11-ae34-159fba9f0778 Talskiddy (talk) 08:19, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that at least clarifies what you were trying to say. The important distinction here is that those were not Lambourne lands that came to the family via John's marriage to Joan, as you had it phrased, except in so much as Lambourne would have temporarily held them as husband of the widowed Joan after John's death. They may not even have been Luscott lands, for the most part, since Joan was heiress only of her mother, while her father remarried and had a son who was the father's eventual heir-general. Even of the lands that did pass from William de Luscott to the Arundells (which happened after John died, so is of questionable notability for John IV's article), many of them were part of a large purchase from the then-heir of the right of reversion on lands on which William de Luscott held a life-interest, and so the marriage itself didn't bring them to the family except in the most indirect sense that the purchase of these specific lands involved familiar social ties. (As an aside, John V was a little younger than TNA gives - an inquisition post mortem on one of her mother's kin shows that in 1367, Joan de Luscott was married to John Arundell, but childless, so her sons must have come later and John wasn't even the eldest. The TNA account, probably originating with the CRO, is more of an aid for contextualizing the large collection of Arundell family muniments now at the CRO than a carefully-researched historical study of the family.)

The real problem here is that nobody has done a serious scholarly study of this man on which we could base a biography. This is part of the reason for the notability rules - being notable, having detailed coverage in reliable secondary sources, not only demonstrates the merits of there being an article on the subject, it provides the material from which a complete biography can be written, and we don't really have that here. The quoted text from TNA says he predeceased his father (though the death date given by Pine, to which I don't have access, might suggest otherwise), so he may never have held any Arundell lands other than Treloy, given him by his father (or maybe he held them for just a few months between his father's death and his own, if Pine is right). Exactly how important could he have been, to merit his own page rather than just passing mention on his son's page? What is special about him? Agricolae (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]