Talk:Simultaneum

Merger "shared church" and "simultaneum"

The material form Shared church and Simultankirche has all been added here. The page Shared church needs to be redirected here. Ane I blieve that this page should then be renamed Shared church as the most widely used English term, following Benjamin J. Kaplan.AMuseo (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

---

Hi. We are dealing here with terminology and definitions. One single source (Kaplan) isn't usually enough of a base for such issues. Besides, this Kaplan source is given w/o online access and is impossible to verify. VERY shaky base for building a WP page, let alone for merging two not obviously synonymous items!
Isn't "simultaneum" a term coined and usable only for a specific historical European context? The French WP article indicated as a source (?!) seems to support this notion and gives a narrow, precise definition of the term.
As a consequence: Is it sure that the Status quo (Holy Land sites) is accepted as a form of simultaneum? Not every form of inter-denominational sharing must necessarily be a "simultaneum". In the Holy Land, it is the result of a fundamentally different historical process.
Unless it is validated by several good sources, editors should not presume that any "shared church" qualifies as a simultaneum. If the DEFINITION of a s. is the cohabitation of Catholics and Protestants, then for instance the Holy Land status quo departs the stage with a bow. So we should bring a clear definition, then list up examples.
Talking of which: these interminable lists should be separated somehow from the theoretical article, they contribute close to nothing at clarifying the term at hand, which is the No. 1 job of an encyclopedia. They just overwhelm the user. One can see from the given examples where the phenomenon is to be found, but that should be done by the article, with explanations, as was done with the Palatinate--now that's a valuable bit of information.
After a good look at what's available here, I strongly suggest to place "simultaneum" as one specific sub-chapter of the "shared church" page. The same could be done with the specific case of the "Status quo (Holy Land sites)", w/o merging that page into "shared church".ArmindenArminden (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Simultaneum. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121023042257/http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1O95-simultaneum.html to http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1O95-simultaneum.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 04:49, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

St Nicholas' Church and Fitzalan Chapel, Arundel, as a "simultaneum"

I have amended the entry to express reservations on whether this is a simultaneum. It is certainly a case where places of worship for two different denominations exist in a conjoined building under the same roof, but:

(1) the term "simultaneum" generally seems to relate to a specific historical context in continental Europe which does not apply in the Arundel context;

(2) with a simultaneum, as generally understood, the ownership of the whole building is shared. Either the building is jointly owned by two congregations or the building is vested in the State, which allows two different congregations to have the use of it;

(3) the description of the arrangements, and the pictured illustrations, seem to suggest that typically in a simultaneum there is a shared nave for the congregation, and either separate sanctuary areas for different altars (as in St M Kozal, Gniezno), or a sanctuary which is furnished in a manner which is a compromise between two different traditions (as in St Fabian, Ringstedt). These features do not exist in Arundel. In the 19th Century the Roman Catholic Dukes of Norfolk established that they were the legal owners of the Fitzalan Chapel, and erected a brick wall on their side of the iron grille which separated the (RC) Fitzalan Chapel from the Parish Church. This was partly demolished in 1956, and in 1970 replaced with a glass screen. During the 1977 Week of Prayer for Christian Unity the iron grille was opened and an ecumenical service held for the first time using the entire building. (Arundel information from "St Nicholas' Church Arundel - a Brief History" (undated: 1980s?).Ntmr (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

(4) The Fitzalan Chapel is a private chapel of Arundel Castle, which serves as the mausoleum of the Fitzalan-Howard family, and is not place of public Roman Catholic worship (Arundel Cathedral serves as the local centre for Roman Catholic services).Ntmr (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

What about the Holy Land and sharing with other religions, not just denominations?

1. Isn't "simultaneum" a term coined and usable only for a specific historical European context?
2. In historical Palestine, many if not all major churches were (and some still are) used also by Muslims - for prayer and for asking for divine help. Some shrines, such as the Tomb of Rachel at Bethlehem, were visited by people of all 3 religions, mainly women in that case: Jewish, Muslim, and Christian, as part of the local folk religion. Maybe this stems in the fact that a large number of Palestinian Muslims are descendants of Christian and Jewish converts, and certainly also because of the numerous overlaps between the 3 holy books, because of the Muslim imposing their dominance after their conquest of the land in the 7th c., and because in folk religion people want to "cover all the bases" in their relation to divinity. In the early Muslim centuries, certain parts of major churches were specifically modified to be used as mosques (see Church of the Nativity and Church of the Seat of Mary/Kathisma). Is that type of shared use covered by this term, or does that go too far? Arminden (talk) 09:03, 22 October 2021 (UTC)